I have have seen SoC proc on JoC many, many times on the PTR. It seems that you need to be in melee range in order for SoC to proc, so that explains why you didn't see it with your test.


I was trying to see if the SoC proc rate on judgements was the same as auto-attack, so I did the same thing you did by judging out of auto-attack range. Seeing 0 procs made me realize there was something wrong with the test, so I changed my method - I stood in melee range, used FoL to reset my swing timer and judged. I got 10~ SoC procs over 20 Judgements and 2 melee swings (forgot to turn off autoattack sometimes). Sorry, no screenshot, but I could get one if you'd like.


This would be another factor in favor of SoB as our main (raid) DPS seal, since it wouldn't have range issues like SoC. (on a movement fight, say)

Shadow Priests passively raid heal through Vampiric Touch. They DPS and heal at the same time. The more DPS they do the more healing goes out.

Ret Paladins passively heal the melee through Divine Storm and Judgement of Light. They DPS and heal at the same time. The more DPS they do the more healing goes out.

So again, if we're already filling the role of melee battery what is so unbalanced about AoW? You still wouldn't have to use it if you're lazy, it just gives us something useful to do during all that downtime we have. The only thing you keep saying is "it's OP for us to heal and DPS". Are you gonna try to get Divine Storm nerfed? Remove Judgement of Light? Delete Vampiric Touch? This isn't a new idea.

If this is what you think I'm saying you need to read what I've written slightly more carefully. In fact I direct you to the first paragraph of the text you quoted from me.

My main concern was that people were arguing that the swing timer shouldn't be reset because it doesn't get reset for shaman. I consider this to be a fundamentally flawed and weak argument for all the reasons I've posted. Furthermore no-one has really advanced compelling arguments as to why it should be changed. AoW is fun now, it would be fun if it didn't reset the timer. I happen to prefer that it has the downside it currently has but I accept, and understand, that other people disagree.

You're right it might genuinely be a bug. But they didn't "fix" the Invigorated proc that Enhance shaman received from 2pc tier 5 which also caused a swing timer reset upon use so I'm not sure if they'll "fix" this. I'd really much rather blizzard concentrate on larger issues such as the deep holy tree instead of fixing a reasonably obscure aspect of one retribution talent.

Why does everything need a downside? For things like glyphs I can understand, but naturally aren't talents supposed to be pretty much flat increases to utility and whatever your job is? You complain that we can't compare it to MW. Fine. Then your argument falls apart as well, given that you're comparing AoW's "downside" to MW's "downside".

AoW instants fill our role as melee healy battery perfectly. It fits with the flavor of the class (smashing things with hammers while watching out for your buddies), fits our new job perfectly (doing damage and healing) and gives us something to do during the long cooldown periods where we usually just make a sammich or two. Its fun, interactive, and really doesn't change very much in the grand scheme of things. It's also a change of maybe one or two lines of code, it really shouldn't take too much of a dev's free time to fix. There's your argument.

Incidentally you compare it to your 5-piece T5 bonus. Tell me, did anyone actually use that bonus? My gut answer would be no because of the resetting. Blizzard doesn't like it when people don't use the things they work hard to code (see: deep Arms, Arcane, Survival).

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it should be the 51-point talent. If 45-yard Auras are moved to baseline then "Holy Renewal" would make a decent 11-point talent. Putting it any higher in the tree, I think I'd want it to be the "Consecration heals friendlies" talent that gets mooted by hacked off Healadins every seventeen minutes or so.

Certainly not everything needs a downside, and I completely agree that AoW is a really fun talent that fits in well with our class. I really enjoy throwing out a heal on a neglected caster in a 5 man without having to complete cease all semblance of my main role. I am concerned about an imbalance particularly in PvP where Ret pallies can get say an extra 2k health every 15 seconds or so but I'm not certain if it is an issue despite knowing that other classes will certainly cry about it. It is a fairly decent argument to say that such a deep ret talent shouldn't have such a penalty hidden within it. At very least if the swing timer reset is intentional then it should be explicit that there is some dps loss from using it.

To be totally honest I'm not sure where you're finding long periods periods of time but maybe that's because I really get into things when I'm playing. The "rotations" (I use that word knowing that its not correct) I've been drawing up tend to suggest we get a free GCD around once every 10 seconds if we're going full-tilt.

Finally, I'm fairly sure I've been consistent in saying that AoW and MW are different talents serving different purposes and that because of this you can't make direct comparisons in the way many people have been making. If you say that MW and AoW are alike because they both allow instant heals to be cast, which you did, then I agree that they are similar in this way. But my point in that case was that they are similar in that both classes must sacrifice dps to cast those instant heals and that seems fair.

Okay, well previously you were saying that "in the scheme of things it probably isn't a big deal" which I took to mean that you didn't think it was a big balance issue; now you're saying it's extremely unbalanced. It looks like I jumped to a conclusion on that. I disagree about the balance, but that's a matter of opinion, so fair enough.

As for the rest, how are you doing anything other than arguing semantics here? You disagree that the talent would be more fun without the reset, but you apparently agree that it's confusing with the reset. "It's less fun this way" is a bad argument, but "it's fun but more confusing this way" is fine? Because you think the confusion doesn't lessen the fun? Or because you think fun shouldn't be a consideration but confusion should be?

It sounds like the same thing to me, so if it brings us to a resolution then fine, I'll say it your way: It's confusing this way.

I agree with that. But that's also exactly the problem with your argument that "no other class can do X while also doing Y without Z, so we shouldn't be able to either." It's consistency for the sake of consistency. That's not always a bad thing, but if it's standing in the way of a good idea it is.

Well I'll ignore your previous comments of:

or

Which both clearly show you comparing AoW requiring a downside to MW heals giving a downside and that you are in fact comparing them... But like I said, I'll be nice and won't rip your argument apart because you can't choose a single position.

Regardless!

You're comparing two completely different things. The purpose of MW is to increase DPS. The talent is there to make you cast the spells in your book that you so ignored for the last 4 years, again following the example that talent trees should enhance your baseline skills, not create completely new playstyles that feel like a different class.

Art of War on the other hand has nothing to do with DPS. AoW is all about UTILITY. It's about giving paladins a little something something to bring to a raid (health battery). Why are we penalized for filling a utility role?

Well, I disagree with this. I think it's more important for spells to be predictable and understandable than to be powerful. Power can always be compensated for with additional effects.

If everyone thinks a talent does X upon reading it, but it actually does Y, that's a worse thing for the game than for X to be slightly underpowered. Haven't you seen a new player get all excited about Vindication, and then you have to tell them that no, it's actually fairly useless because it doesn't work on anything hard.

To give another example, in Warhammer there are currently spells with cast times which can be cast on the run, and spells with cast times which cannot. It's crazy, and I can't find a pattern, so I have to remember that fact for every spell. There's lots of complaints on WAR forums stemming from the fact that people don't realize that spell X is much more useful than it seems because it can be cast on the run.

Just stand in melee range of something but face away from it. You will get SoC procs on Judgement at the normal proc rate. SoR however does not proc on Judgement under any circumstances.

Ret paladins have 2 heals and only one is affected by AoW. Given a normal crit rate and that it only allows Flash of Light you're looking at a single 1.8k-ish heal every 15 seconds. A priest doing VE is a ton more healing than that for 5 people passively, and his healing throughput increases as his gear increases.

So no, you're pretty much wrong about everything.