flyingtoastr

Without timestamps that is pretty close to worthless bro. Turn them on and try again please.

Incidentally that is beta, we're talking about live behavior.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

MCHamster

Is this not the WotLK thread? maybe I missed something.

 

Qalor

So, with this focus on strength, and shifting away from spell damage, will +strength now become our weapon enchant of choice for tanking weapons?

 

• Chicken

A shame really, it seemed an interesting possible mechanic. I can certainly understand why it wouldn't work as a baseline ability of the class. It'd work great as a Holy talent though, much more flavorful than increasing Judgement range by 20 yards is. The more I think about it the more I like the actually.

"Divine Focus - Allows you to swing your melee weapon while casting your Flash of Light and Holy Light spells, but increases your time between attacks by 50/0%, all other downsides of casting a spell still apply"

It'd give Holy Paladins an extra method of gaining mana (Through Judgement of Wisdom), and would make keeping up Judgements natural for Holy Paladins too. That might result in needing a redesign of Crusader Strike's secondary effect however.

And I guess it wouldn't work out too well with the standard UI since it's hard to heal someone while simultaneously having a mob targetted with it. So I guess that's a fairly good sign it's unlikely to be implemented, disappointing as that is to me.

Edit:
Currently while strength is certainly getting more powerful, it's not at the level of spell damage for threat I believe, though the exact results for that depend on how high the "High threat" of both Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous are. I'm going to miss every single one of our abilities clearly stating it's threat on the tooltip. The extra strength enchant will definitely be weaker than agility enchants still in regards to survivability increases though, the increase in block value scaling is good, but it's not that good.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

bellator

Whilst I havent run the exact numbers I believe the most effective of Str/SP will depend on number of mobs.

SoR, JoR, Shield of Righteous and Hammer of the Righteous all scale better with strength now. It's only HS and Consecration that have better SP scaleing. Thus in terms of tps on a single target, strength will scale better, but in terms of total threat generated on all targts, SP will scale better when the number of mobs is >= x.

 

GSH

Actually, the standard UI has always had support for this playstyle. You can press the heal button, then click on the friendly target's frame if you have an enemy selected (or no target selected). The only thing it doesn't work with are abilities which can hit both friends and enemies, like Holy Shock.

And once you move to mouse-over or click healing, it's very normal to keep your main target set to the boss, so you can keep an eye on who he's attacking.

The big problem with melee-healing has always been the time-cost.

 

JettJaguar

It would really depend on how healing pallies sit in the threat chart. If they are high, being in melee range would be pretty bad, but if they still sit pretty low on the meters, they would only have to contend with interrupts from aoe damage.

 

Hylo

So the SotR mechanism is pretty much clear now... I just can't get it in to my head why on earth tanking paladins should hunt the slowest possible weapon for maximum threat. If anything, they should make warriors and paladins share the same tanking weapons with whatever the proper "tank stats" might be. Without normalizing the SotR damage this just isn't going to happen. Paladins will be fighting over the same weapons than most of the dualwielding melee dps. Hello [Talon of Azshara], rogues can go cry in the corner!

If the skill goes though as it is we'll see those 1.6-1.8 speed weapon warriors want for tanking either a) cluttering the loot tables and getting disenchanted, or, b) being so ridiculously low drop rate that warriors are whining they don't have any upgrades.

Am I missing something here?

 

Lunkhedd

If the change to Vindication (from "damaging melee attacks" to "damaging attacks") actually means what it looks like it means, Vindication might become a very effective mitigation ability for AoE tanking. Has anyone checked to see whether it affects mob damage output in the beta?

I'd guess that Vindication would only proc on the first tick of Consecration, but that'd be worth checking too.

 

Denogran

To date, Paladins generate healing threat at 1/2 that of other healing classes. I've even known pallies to heal with talented Righteous Fury up for the damage reduction. And we've never run pallies with salv.

 

Raggsokk

I think the one your quotings intention was to write casting

 

Amera

This was back a bit, but has anyone been able to test this? I haven't been able to get on at the same time as any dispellers I know to test this.

 

• frmorrison

Similar talents stack (like your Priest's 20% dispel talent + 65% from Pain Suppression), so it should stack.


Healing while having imp Righteous Fury up means you basically have the same threat as other healers (sans -aggro on healing talents). I usually use that spell in raids (misdirect will cover threat from the initial healing).

However if you could melee dps while healing, I don't think I would have RF up .

 

JettJaguar

I thought that in one of the recent patches, healing was exempted from RF so that pally tanks couldn't use a big heal on a pull to gain threat.

 

flyingtoastr

Healing isn't exempt from RF, but pallys have an innate -50% on all heals. Thus even with 3/3 Improved RF up you're only producing 95% of normal threat with healing spells, making heal tanking somewhat difficult.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Hammuhtime

As of right now CS and Divine Storm are proccing damage seals. And they also proc all other seals as well.

 

Redcape

Not so, strength is massively better. I don't know if crossposting like this is against the rules (feel free to delete this if so) but I made a post in the prot paladin thread that covers threat generation from str pretty reasonably imo.

Protection and you!

 

Eir

HotR is bugged at the moment.

I filed a bug report here:

WoW Forums -> [BUG] Hammer of the Righteous



Basically, it's ignoring AP derived from Strength and only scaling based on pure AP from items and such.



The general formula I came up with for how HotR is scaling right now is:

Base weapon dmg + 10 + ((green AP number on your character sheet)/14 * weapon speed)


So say you have a 2.5s weapon that does 120 - 180 dmg. On your character sheet under AP you see 720(500 +220) with the 220 in green. Your expected HotR dmg would be (220/14 * 2.5) + 10 + base, or 169 - 229. This formula seemed to hold up with the various weapons I tested. Some other people in beta can plug their stats into this formula and see if they're getting similar results.

 

Conq[SUN]

Warriors take the off-hands. We take the main-hands. Simple.
Think [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade]

I doubt we will see much more weapons with tanking stats like dodge, parry and defense. I think Blizzard will put threat-stats only on weapons. (plus stamina)

 

Zehn

All these paladin changes have got me both excited and concerned at the same time.

I'm thinking and getting ready for the launch. Seems to be a number of implications

Block value= even more important now. So get the [Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600] and [Tome of the Lightbringer] before the expansion is released

However, do the change and increased importance of sta and str mean we're actually better off choosing the warrior set tanking items NOW as we gear up and before move into WoTLK. Anyone have a view on whether I'm better off competing for those drops in BT and Sunwell vs the t6 classic pally tanking items. Would clearly rather not waste DKP on trash items that aren't going to help the levelling as much

How are people finding tanking in the beta with t6?

 

Prinsesa

@Zehn:

I doubt that it would be productive to stock up on STR-laced tanking gear now in preparation for WOTLK. No Paladin-usable tanking gear has STR past Karazhan, so TBC tanking gear with STR on it is only within the ilevel 100-120 range.

In comparison, the lowest WOTLK tanking item in terms of ilevel is Tooga's Lost Toenail at ilevel 134, while the Cobalt introductory tanking set itself is at ilevel 151.

To compare:
[Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable] to Cobalt Belt
[Jade-Skull Breastplate] to Cobalt Chestpiece
[Wrynn Dynasty Greaves] to Leggings of Forceful Purification

And so on.

If the itemization needs wrought about by these new talents and ability scaling changes enough, then we simply use the tanking gear provided in WOTLK that much earlier.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

• Chicken

Interesting, it appears most of the scaling comes from Shield of Righteousness though, and you're also making a large assumption that "high threat" on the tooltip means a multiplier on the threat caused. As far as I know all other abilities that mention "high threat" in their tooltip instead provide a static amount of threat, which matters in this case as it affects the scaling of the abilities by strength in question quite a bit. Looking at Warrior and Druid abilities it's fairly likely the "high threat" instead means ~400 static threat on top of the threat the damage causes.

So if we take your numbers but instead of assuming "high threat" means "twice as much threat" we assume it's a static amount of threat and because of that not affecting the value of strength, we instead get:

Shield of Righteousness
str*.5(BV conversion)*2(Shield of Righteousness)*1.3(Shield spec)*1.9(RF)*1.05(Misery)/6(Shield of Righteousness cooldown)*1.15(Shield of the Templar)
0.63 threat/sec
Hammer of the Righteous
str*2(AP)/14(AP to dps)*1.9(RF)*1.05(Misery)*2.4(AP normalization)/6(Cooldown on Hammer)
0.14 threat/sec

Your other values would remain unchanged, so we can just add those up. That puts as at 1.18 threat per strength. That still keeps strength better than spell damage in all cases, but it makes the difference a good bit smaller. The biggest scaling in there lies in the block value though, attack power only gives 0.55 threat per 2 attack power in comparison. The actual increase to weapon damage this amount of attack power gives is the smallest contributor, only Hammer of the Righteous is scaling from that; and it basically provides 0.31 theat per second per white damage; that sounds a fair bit but 2 attack power only provides 0.34 damage to Hammer of the Righteous, meaning that the white damage contribution from 2 attack power is 0.1 threat per second for Hammer of the Righteous, and another 0.1 threat per second thanks to the extra white damage.

Establishing that allows a comparison between a normal melee weapon and a spell damage weapon too. I'll compare [Hammer of Judgement] to [The Unbreakable Will] for this purpose. Key points here lie in that the Hammer of Judgement scales most threat abilities but not Shield of Righteousness and it barely scales Hammer of the Righteous, while using The Unbreakable Will provides a larger increase to Hammer of the Righteous but doesn't scale other abilities. I'll ignore enchants as you can enchant both weapons with whatever happens to be best; I'll also only cover the threat difference between the two. The Hammer of Judgement's spell damage is worth ~142 threat per second, 39.6 of which is from Seal of Righteousness. The extra white damage of the Unbreakable Will (86.5 on average) is worth 71.8 threat per second; or if Redcape's assumption of high threat meaning double threat is correct 101.8 threat per second, using it with Seal of Blood/Seal of the Martyr as well would provide an additional 39.9 threat.

Now I'll admit that these numbers are most likely not 100% correct, but the differences are large enough to allow a couple of conclusions. First being that strength is better as an itemized threat increase for us in WotLK than spell damage is. Second being that we really need to find out what exactly the "high threat" on Hammer of the Righteous means, as it makes a large difference between whether spell power weapons or normal weapons are better, as well as to which seal is better to use.

Edit:

As it's of interest to some us I bet, if we take [Rising Tide] as a Hammer of the Righteous weapon instead, there's a fair bit better results for Hammer of the Righteous. Rising Tide would gain 59.1 extra TPS from Hammer of the Righteous over a Hammer of Judgement. For comparison The Unbreakable Will only gained 26.8 TPS from Hammer of the Righteous. You can double those numbers if the high threat means threat gets doubled as Redcape assumed. If we also add in the attack power contribution and white damage increase we get 128.3 TPS from Rising Tide. If we'd also add Seal of Blood over Seal of Righteousness the Rising Tide would be a clear winner over Hammer of Judgement for Threat.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

bellator

Anyone know if there are any mods around that are working on beta? A damange meter would be handy as would be able to easily tell is HotR has a threat multiplier or fixed threat associated with it.

 

• Chicken

I've heard Violation works on the beta servers, though I have no idea how much information it provides as a damage meter. I also edited my post just now, forgot to take into account the extra auto-attack threat [The Unbreakable Will] would give, which makes a very large difference when it comes to the comparison I did.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Ghilgam

While things are all new and shiny this all seems exciting, but isn't having different versions of scaling (AP/Spellpower) exactly the same problem that has plagued retribution paladins for years now?

Are we going to have to resort to stupid stuff like switching out a weapon, consecrating and then switching back? It’s also a bit disheartening to get a new bit of gear and think to yourself “Well, that boosts my TPS on xxx spell, but it’s not great for xxx”.

Death knights with their AP-only scaling system seems like a much better choice – a new piece gear with higher AP is the optimal DPS upgrade for every single one of their abilities.