WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 3

kalbear · 07/18/08, 2:15 AM

Between that change to salv and the tranquil air totem, there exist no global threat modifiers. That's very interesting. Classes that can dump their threat are going to be very, very powerful, I would imagine. Classes that can't...are going to be limited. Unless they make tank threat essentially ridiculous and give that a 30-45% increase.

Densor · 07/18/08, 2:19 AM

Why does it HoW need to do more damage? At 700+ for half a second of cast time, it seems like it would be a pretty big damage increase. I really would like to see the math that says it isn't worth using ever.

[Edit: Didn't see that TA was changed, too.]

flyingtoastr · 07/18/08, 2:19 AM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Between that change to salv and the tranquil air totem, there exist no global threat modifiers. That's very interesting. Classes that can dump their threat are going to be very, very powerful, I would imagine. Classes that can't...are going to be limited. Unless they make tank threat essentially ridiculous and give that a 30-45% increase.

Well we already know that Warriors are getting some pretty massive AP > Threat conversions other than Heroic Strike (nyah) so I would assume threat will be less of an issue with a competent tank. HoS is also going to be very nice in raids, I can already see the "**Hand on Warlock** macros scrolling across my screen. It might be fun.

E: To be clear, Tranquil Air is also being removed.
E2: PMing people who want the math behind Hammer of Wrath's suck, drop me a line if you want it.

Auororam · 07/18/08, 2:26 AM

Anybody remember how in 40 man raids with 5 minute blessings basically our job would be to constantly buff the raid, every once in a while heal the melee dps during cleaves, and play Out-of-combat resser?

I can't help but think that the Blessing/Hand system is a more improved version of what blizzard was trying to do with this.

Originally I got the gist (and it was played out in 5 mans) that you would be a Paladin. You'd be doing your thing as a healer/tank/melee'er and you'd be buffing your party with your aura plus cool affects that you can toss out at instant speed while you continue to own face.

Once we were all in raids the 5 minute timer became such a handicap that we didn't do anything else.

Now it looks like we'll be back to the "multi-task" paladin. The ret/holy/tanking palies will have to hand the second highest dps from the tank (with no aggro dump) every time his cooldown is up. The non-tanking palies can run sacrifice on the tank every cooldown or during scripted events (like the upcoming raid-wide-webbing in Naxx).

I always liked the idea of constantly casting other spells and utility while doing our primary job, and I always felt blizzard was striving towards this idea what with blessings and such, coupled with the high cooldowns on many of our other abilities which I felt left us time to tend to the utility aspect. They always all needed to be used together to have a full impact on the fight. Hopefully this is another step closer to that ideal.

As far as Hammer of Wrath, I've always used this spell I believe as it was intended. To finish off runners while soloing and as a ranged execute in PvP on a sprinting rogue or blinking mage. I don't think blizzard wants it to fulfill the place of the warrior talent Execute on the Paladin class. When it was given to us it was mostly talked about in a PvP sense and Ret paladins where not DPSing in raids then so there wasn't really any idea that this would be a balancing talent to up ret-raid dps or something like that. IMO it's great at what it does and not at what it doesn't?

Prinsesa · 07/18/08, 2:27 AM

Originally Posted by Densor

Why does it HoW need to do more damage? At 700+ for half a second of cast time, it seems like it would be a pretty big damage increase. I really would like to see the math that says it isn't worth using ever.

[Edit: Didn't see that TA was changed, too.]

Simply put, delaying your swing timer by 0.5 seconds to shoot a 700 damage HoW is not worth it if your white swing deals 1000 damage non-crit and without a Seal proc.

• frmorrison · 07/18/08, 2:30 AM

Threat talents have all been buffed, like Elemental Shaman get 30% (currently have 10%) threat reduction, and tank threat is supposed to be buffed.

So Pallies should not have to use Hand of Salvation on cooldown, but it is there (along with Hand of Protection) if you need it.

I like the idea of buffing in combat as well.

flyingtoastr · 07/18/08, 2:31 AM

Little picture confirming the 51-pointers, in addition to a line about increasing Judgement range, as well as your Holy Shock crit heals reducing the cast time of something. Fun!

EDIT: Got them:
Infusion of Light (Rank 2)
Your Holy Shock critical hits reduce the cast time of your next Holy Light spell by 2.5 secs.

Sacred Cleansing (Rank 3)
Your Cleanse spell has a $h% chance to increase the target's resistance to Disease, Magic and Poison by $53659s1% for $53659d.

• frmorrison · 07/18/08, 2:37 AM

Here are cleaned up notes:

General

* All Auras now affect all party and raid members within the area of effect.
* Avenging Wrath no longer causes Forebearance, damage increase reduced to 20%, now increases healing done by 20%.
* Blessing of Freedom renamed Hand of Freedom, Blessing of Protection renamed Hand of Protection,Blessing of Sacrifice renamed Hand of Sacrifice, and Blessing of Salvation renamed Hand of Salvation. Only one Hand spell can be on the target per paladin at any one time. All ranks now cost 6% of base mana.
* Hand of Sacrificeis now only 1 rank and transfers 20% of the damage taken to the caster, duration reduced to 12 seconds, cooldown increased to 2 minutes.
* Hand of Salvation, now reduces total threat on the target by 2% per second for 10 seconds while also reducing all damage and healing done by 10%.
* Blessing of Light and Greater Blessing of Light removed. Their effects have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Divine Intervention cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Divine Protection and Divine Shield now cost 3% of base mana.
* Hammer of Justice now costs 3% of base mana.
* Hammer of Wrath is now considered a Retribution spell, moved from Holy, mana cost reduced, missile speed increased, now usable on targets below 35% health.
* Holy Wrath is now instant cast, causes a 3 second stun, cooldown reduced to 30 seconds, radius reduced to 10 yards.
* Judgement of Justice will no longer prevent Fear effects, only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health). Seal of Justice/Judgement reduced to 1 rank with all the effects of the previous rank 2
* Lay on Hands no longer drains all mana, cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Retribution Aura damage increased and now gains damage based on Holy spell power.
* Righteous Fury now increases threat caused by Holy damage by 90%. (instead of all holy spells)
* Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds.
* Turn Undead (ranks 1 and 2) removed. Turn Evil now granted at level 24, mana cost changed to 9% of base.

Holy

* Divine Intellect (Holy) moved to tier 2, increases total Intellect by 3/6/9/12/15%.
* Healing Light (Holy) moved to tier 2.
* Holy Shock (Holy) range changed to 20/40 yards when used on enemies/friends respectively, cooldown reduced to 6 seconds.
* Illumination (Holy) moved to tier 3.
* Improved Concentration Aura moved from the Protection tree to tier 4 in the Holy tree.
* Improved Seal of Righteousness (Holy) moved to tier 1, renamed XXX, now affects Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption.
* Pure of Heart (Holy) reduced to 2 ranks, now reduces duration of Curse and Disease effects by 25/50%.
* Sanctified Light (Holy) now also increases the critical chance of Holy Shock.
* Spiritual Focus (Holy) moved to tier 1.
* Unyielding Faith (Holy) moved to tier 2.

Protection

* Anticipation (Protection) moved to tier 1, now increases chance to dodge by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Avenger's Shield (Protection) cast time reduced to .5 seconds, duration increased to 10 seconds.
* Divine Strength (Holy) moved to tier 1 in the Protection tree.
* Holy Shield (Protection) cooldown reduced to 8 seconds. (typo?)
* Improved Devotion Aura (Protection) moved to tier 4, reduced to 3 ranks, now increases armor of Devotion Aura by 17/34/50% and increases all healing done to units affected by Devotion Aura by 1/2/3%.
* Improved Hammer of Justice (Protection) now reduces cooldown by 10/20/30 secs.
* Improved Righteous Fury (Protection) threat bonus folded into base spell, talent still reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%.
* Redoubt (Protection) moved to tier 2.
* Toughness (Protection) moved to tier 3.

Retribution

* Conviction (Retribution) now increases critical chance with all spells and melee attacks.
* Divine Purpose (Retribution) now reduces chance to be hit by spells and ranged attacks by 1/2/3%.
* Improved Sanctity Aura (Retribution) renamed Sanctified Retribution, now causes all units affected by Retribution Aura to cause 2% more damage. ( Sanctity Aura (Retribution) removed.)
* Improved Seal of the Crusader (Retribution) renamed Heart of the Crusader and the effects now apply to all Judgement spells.
* Repentance (Retribution) mana cost changed to 9% of base, duration increased to 1 minute (10 second PvP duration), now usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids and Undead.
* Stoicism (Protection) moved to tier 2, now reduces duration of Stun effects by 10/20/30% and reduces chance your spells will be resisted by 10/20/30%.

Auororam · 07/18/08, 2:38 AM

Originally Posted by Corronach

I'm essentially saying the same thing you said, without Salvation it will become really up in the air if you can justify the spot of a holy paladin in a raid. Atm you'll need 1 ret for their aura, and 1 prot for their aura. The prot paladin can get kings, and the ret paladin can get might/wisdom.

There are a lot of nice changes, but a large amount of insignificant changes or negative changes. For a class that was expecting a lot of buffs, I don't think these were expected.

They'll want a third paladin for the extra 12 seconds of Hand of Sacrifice!
Also it'll be really good to have a Hand of Salvation Bot who can watch the threat meters and help out the non-threat dropping class to up their DPS. Also it's 3 lay on hands per attempt instead of 2. And maybe they'll give us another blessing since we just lost 5 or so.

Auororam · 07/18/08, 2:42 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Threat talents have all been buffed, like Elemental Shaman get 30% (currently have 10%) threat reduction, and tank threat is supposed to be buffed.

So Pallies should not have to use Hand of Salvation on cooldown, but it is there (along with Hand of Protection) if you need it.

I like the idea of buffing in combat as well.

Well right now it doesn't have a cooldown, but I think they are hoping the 10% reduc in dmg for 10 secs will make it not-spammable? Also if the threat changes are good then we won't need it much. I wonder if they will be implementing some sort of threat meter directly into the game because this talent pretty much requires to see a full raid threat layout.

Pyralissa · 07/18/08, 2:45 AM

Tier 3 Illumination is going to be very interesting with 8% spell crit coming out of Retribution (and being able to pick up Healing Light) although it would certainly have to come at the cost of Precision and arguably Divine Strength (depending on how many talents in Retribution beyond 51 help out damage).

It's still a nice option to have.

Prinsesa · 07/18/08, 2:46 AM

How much would taking 20% of the tank's damage for 12 seconds be? My first instinct was to use this while Ret as a mana regen mechanism, but I'm wondering if I'll go splat 3 seconds after putting it on the Brutallus tank or something.

(Or, if it doesn't kill you, how painful would it be on the healers?)

Tuesasinus · 07/18/08, 2:50 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Little picture confirming the 51-pointers, in addition to a line about increasing Judgement range, as well as your Holy Shock crit heals reducing the cast time of something. Fun!

EDIT: Got them:
Infusion of Light (Rank 2)
Your Holy Shock critical hits reduce the cast time of your next Holy Light spell by $/1000;54149S1 secs.

Sacred Cleansing (Rank 3)
Your Cleanse spell has a $h% chance to increase the target's resistance to Disease, Magic and Poison by $53659s1% for $53659d.

For the 51pt talent I wonder if that is a constant stream of heals (Think Hex Lord Shadow Bolts) going out of the Paladin or just a single stream with possibly a cast time. That is a very needed heal. I am very happy thus far.

crimsonsentinel · 07/18/08, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Aeverius

That's very interesting- I can't think of any current ability that has different durations in PvE and PvP. Diminishing returns on Fear and whatnot, sure, but not a flat listed difference. Nice buff to Ret CC, certainly.

Actually the complete opposite is true. Almost every single-target CC lasts longer than 10 seconds in pve and hence has to have a different duration in pvp (since pvp CC is capped @ 10 seconds). Only cyclone and stuns are the same, since they have such short durations to begin with. Examples include: polymorph, fear (warlock version), entangling roots, scare beast, hibernate, sap, turn evil, banish, and I'm probably missing a few others. None of these spells have any disclaimers written in the tooltip though because it's implied that no CC will last longer than 10 seconds in pvp.

edit:

(Or, if it doesn't kill you, how painful would it be on the healers?)

Since there is no extra damage being taken, and assuming that the amount of damage done is calculated first before being subtracted (that is, it takes into account the mitigation of the tank and not the paladin), there would be no real increase in healing done. It would probably be easier on healers excepting of course the afore-mentioned brutallus 3 shot.

Tuesasinus · 07/18/08, 2:54 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

How much would taking 20% of the tank's damage for 12 seconds be? My first instinct was to use this while Ret as a mana regen mechanism, but I'm wondering if I'll go splat 3 seconds after putting it on the Brutallus tank or something.

(Or, if it doesn't kill you, how painful would it be on the healers?)

I think it would depend if it is all factored in after the Armor/Block Value deduction or before if you will splat or not. But, if the mob is hitting the tank for 10k you would be taking 2k dmg of that damage dealt instead of the tank.