Joasuf

Speaking to our Warrior MT he seems to think a warriors primary threat generator in WOLTK will be high crits and so is seriously looking at the slowest 1h he can find (which would currently be Illidans glave). If he is correct in thinking a slow 1h will be best for warriors and we pallies need a slow 1h for our tanking it maybe that all tank weapons will now be 2.4-2.8 speed weapons not 1.6-1.8 weapons.

 

Prinsesa

No, it's not the same problem.

The old Ret Paladin itemization problem was that half our skills used AP, the other half used spell power, but trying to cram both into our items choked us out of resilience and other stats.

On top of that, the half that scaled with AP scaled so well that there was very little incentive to use spell power, so that half then became ignored completely and only dealt base damage.

===

The changes to our scaling are great because they're unified: Everything that used to scale with AP still does, and everything that you can't force to scale with AP (because they're used by non-Ret Paladins) scales with the spell power provided by Sheath of Light, or both.

As for Prot, everything that used to scale with spell power still does, but now we get it from Touched by the Light's STA conversion instead of directly. Meanwhile, three of our threat sources: Seals, HoR and SHoR will scale with STR, and STR itself is looking to replace block value completely for how cheap it is, while it becomes both a threat and mitigation stat for us as well, instead of just Warriors

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Hylo

Heh, nice that you take that weapon as an example. After all our 4 warriors had gotten it (for tanking, all of them) the 5th drop we got this week was going to be disenchanted. I happened to save that one for citygear/"maybe usable with shield in some ret PvP situations"/"maybe better for WotLK tanking than Hammer or Judgement". Next one will be go to our vault as 2x Void Crystal.

If you check this you can see it's 90% warrior tanking weapon. This weapon will see the same fate.

* No dps-warrior wants it for their offhand as its too fast (depending how Titans Grip shapes, this might not matter in WotLK).
* No enhancement shaman would want it for their offhand even if they could use it as its too fast.
* No combat rogue wants that if they are not "undergeared" (not having [Blade of Savagery])

Add to that the fact that enhancement shamans will want TWO slow one-hand weapons (f.ex [Syphon of the Nathrezim]) you can see there is quite a lot competition for "main-hands" and not so much for "off-hands".

 

Dra

There is currently absolutely no indication that there will be any change in warrior tank weapon preference.

 

Prinsesa

Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that off-hand weapon speed didn't matter for Fury Warriors as long as it's not a dagger, since the only attack affected is Whirlwind, yet the impact of that is not significant given the trade-off for smoother rage generation.

As for Rogues, keep in mind that not everyone is going into WOTLK with raid gear, and that sword (and others like it) will be great for someone building gear from the ground-up.

Of course, this all depends on whether Hammer of the Righteous being unnormalized is working-as-intended, because I really don't see any good reason why it should be.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Fqubed

Not to get offtrack but that weapon is str+sta and doesnt even reach s2 dps (much less so dps stats) so for a rogue offhand its subpar.

Its also entirely possible that slow weapons come with tank stats and are as such dedicated to tanks, allowing for less QQing by the dps crowd.

Also looking at the talents, how viable is it for a ret pally to "ninjatank" in the 71-80 dungeons? At least from the high threat point of view between Devine Storm, CS, and even consecrate if he has mana threat shouldnt be a problem, how bad is survivability in there?

 

bellator

I dont think the there will be a need to switch to spell damage gear. Strength will be the ket stat for threat. Yes spell damage will be better for multi mob threat, but with SpDam from stamina, a consecration is going to be hitting for 200dps per sec, imp retri aura will hit for 250 damage per tick. Thus the only situations where you might have threat issues on offtanked mobs are those when your aoeing down large packs. For these it is probably worth having a SP weapon with SP enchant on it.

My biggest concern is how well everything will scale. With Str, Sta, SP having an effect on our abilities, if they have reduced the scaleing potential of each one down, since multiple stats effect threat, then tps might not scale as well as a DK who's primary after AP as an example. Fingers crossed they've taken this into consideration. Don't want to be Wraths Druid/Priest class in terms of great at start, serious scaleing isssues as you move forward.

 

DdarkDdemon

I surely hope Blizzard will adjust our upcoming tiered sets to match the change, hell adjust our current tiered sets.

If the coefficients do not change, we ca really consider putting divine strength in a, already bloated, tanking talent specc.

Now that improved righteous fury is baseline, along with sheath of light, Retribution will deal near-similar tps as protection paladins, while retribution will take more damage overal.
In addition, retribution will miss some basic tanking tools, which it should.
I could see a retribution paladin tanking a heroic dungeon completely vaible in WotLK.

I'm looking forward to WotLK.

 

Hylo

In "normal" raids WW is around 10-12% of fury warriors damage and in AoE situations it can be as high as 20%. While off-hand speed has almost no other difference (except the mentioned rage generation) we are still seeing the "top" fury warriors using slow offhands. If it can be min-maxed it WILL be min-maxed.

I wouldn't worry about warrior itemization too much though before we see how Titans Grip changes things.
That is quite true but then again, when did rogues care about strength? I agree that given the level requirements for that sword, it's not a perfect example - but what if it was a drop from raid boss?
I've been checking wowhead for such weapons and haven't found any clear candidates (Reactive Waraxe being about the closest one to pure tanking stats). We have only seen small fraction of the drops yet though.

 

Juike

I am looking forward to WoTLK. Paladins in general got a bit of a over hauling. Sheath of Light in Ret with Conviction added into the mix easied my worry about what Blizzard had planned for Paladins as a class. I heal and like healing as a paladin giving us Sheath of Light increases our overall mobility in PvE or PvP. With Holy Shock having a 6 second cooldown and 20/40 yard range not to mention that when you crit with a holy shock you get a 2.5 second reduction to HL casting time makes a holy/ret spec seem pretty spectacular. With all the holy talent trees and from what I understand a removal of the stat MP which is being merged into Spirit, Blizzard seems to be aiming holy paladins into crit machines.

With the aspect that Wrath is in beta we can still see some changes coming. Most important change to me is Beacon of Light I just, at its current state, see don't how much it will do for us. Yes awesome idea but you lost me with a 2300 mana cost for only a 2k heal over time with a 1.5 second cast time that only effects people to a max of 10 yards from your target. If you look at the new druid heal over time thats also and aoe it puts that to shame. While druids are hot machines it would still be nice to see a decent mana to heal ratio on ours as its the only hot we are getting unless you spec for sheath of light.

 

jere

I know people have been tooting the removal of crushing blows, but this picture that was posted by a paladin at Maintankadin seems interesting. Note that the mob is "skull" level (+3 levels). He was indeed crushed:


http://www.vanifae.com/wp-content/up...408_225142.jpg

EDIT: unless skull is used for higher level mobs, but I thought that was "??" level, not skull...I guess I need to level again lol. Anyone know offhand?

 

Conq[SUN]

+3 levels don't crush. +4 do. Think that mob is more than 3 levels above him.

 

Marcos

Unless that particular mob is a new world boss, (which I highly doubt) "skull level" to a level 70 in the wild simply means that the mob is 10+ levels higher than the player. It is highly possible that normal crush mechanics based on level will persist, but that bosses will simply have their weapon skill toned down in such a manner that they themselves are unable to crush.

 

jere

Gotcha.

I was under the impression that skull level mobs were bosses, and that higher level mobs were ?? for some reason. I haven't leveled in so long, so it wasn't fresh on my mind.

 

Marcos

You're right on both counts! But to clarify, when you mouseover a "skull" mob, it shows you Level ?? <mob type>. This is true whether the "skull" mob is a boss or just a monster in the wild.

Happy hunting!

 

Thorgred

I'm still under the impression that for most tanking situations a paladin will want a spelldamage weapon.

Basically because we're looking at 200+ spelldamage from entry-level WotLK dungeon drops, compared to maybe +80 attack power. Obviously until live i'm in the dark as much as everyone else, but it seems to me that +200dmg will always be giving better threat than the equivalent strength you would get, even including the extra threat from slower weapon for HotR.

Yes, strength will be a higher scaling stat, but on this one particular piece of gear where we get oodles of spelldamge:

Slower weapon (melee dps 2.6 spd) would give +400 threat per 6 seconds given current gear from HotR, plus its AP.
Faster Weapon (caster weap) would be at least 800 threat over that same 6 second: given current ratios, 200 dmg = 100tps = 600 threat in 6 sec, with current seal scaling and spell rotations - factor in better scaling and rotations in LK...


So, if i'm reading this correctly: a +200 dmg weapon will still be better threat than a slower melee weapon.
BUT we'll be seeing that +200dmg weapon enchanted with Potency. =D.

 

Mokoto

The problem is that current spell damage weapons are too fast and too low dps to be effective with Hammer of the Righteous. Even in its currently broken state it is clear that it is affected by both the speed and and damage of the weapon.

I expect they want Hammer of the Righteous to be one of our main threat tools even in AoE situations given how cheap it is. 177 mana at level 70.

My Blog: Nerf This...

 

bellator

Not sure if this should go here or the Ret thread,

But for those of you who remember I used to do a Ret Dps model until it got included in Rawr. I have been messing about with that model to try and get some rough numbers. I will try to get something to download over the weekend if I get the time.

I have factored in the new abilites and the estimates we have for all the coefficients. It assumes Judgement/CS/DS are spammed on CD (i know its not possible, but not worked out the cycle time yet). I have also made a few assumptions which i'll explain when i post the model

Some rough numbers i got from a level 70 paladin in the best of the best gear fully potted, fully raid buffed are:-

SoC 2750
SoB 3000
SoR 3470 :p (it is clear the AP coefficient part of this spell is completely off balance for RetDps)

oh and he gets like 650mp5 and 1300hp5 from JoW/L, but in the gear + WF he has like 40% haste. Kinda crazy still

These may be wrong, lots of checking to do etc

 

Gezua

Some recent updates for the Retribution Tree:

1. Improved Blessing of Might (5/5) 50% attack power bonus
2. Vindication (2/2) 20% attribute reduction
3. Pursuit of Justice (2/2) chance you'll be hit by spells reduced by 2%, movement/mounted movement speed increased by 15% (does not stack)

Source: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

About 1.), a level 79 Blessing of Might will now grant 450 attack power. Nice buffs.

Cheers,
Gezua

 

rozetta

The problem is, the other tanking spells should also scale with AP as well as spell power. This includes Consecrate, Holy Shield (or this should scale with BV), Avenger's Shield and Retribution Aura*. Since they're pushing warrior/DK tanking gear on us (str/sta/def), it makes no sense that most of the abilities we have that still don't scale with str are the ones used by prot. Additionally, it makes the sta->SP talent must-have, and it seems they're trying to go without must-have talents in wotlk.

One other thing that worries me is the second part of this talent, since it affect healing crits and prot is one of the few specs that will have very low crit, regardless. It should play to some other strength.

One last thing - prot obviously will still have ridiculous mana problems. I'd personally like to see them change "Guarded by the Light" to reduce the mana cost of all spells by reasonable percentage. It's obvious that regardless of such a talent, prot will be weak in PvP, and that's where the only concern about such a talent might ever lie.



*Actually, the non-scaling of Retribution Aura with AP, despite it being dubbed as the "officia ret aura" is worrying. With it's scaling only with spell power, the reflective damage will be strongest for a holy paladin and we can see where that will lead in min-max land.l

 

◊ Cathela

Pardon the mega-post. Just catching up on the thread.

Thanks; added that to the OP. I've also added the recent information about CS and DS triggering all seals on the beta (bugged or not) and HotR not triggering seals. I think everything in the OP is up to date, but please let me know if anyone finds an error or omission.

I agree, and expect to see the same thing. The whole "tanking weapon" thing kinda made sense back when warriors were the only tanks, but it seems simpler to just eliminate them, let the weapon slot be the threat generator (as it is now for paladins) and balance all tanking gear around that. Even more so now that all three non-druid tanking classes will be using different weapon types/combinations.

As Prinsea (I think?) said, the offset tanking plate in T6+ has no strength on it (ironically, because they didn't want to saddle it with stats that would be useless to paladin tanks). Probably the best things you can pick up now from current raid instances would be a slow one-hander and anything with block value on it.

That's the way it is now, but I think that's exactly what they're trying to change with this new focus on "scaling threat". The static threat value on Devastate, for example, is generally regarded as a problem, and I would expect most/all of the static threat modifiers to be replaced with multipliers.

I think slow offhands are (at least sometimes) preferred since they don't eat up Flurry charges as fast.

Is this confirmed? Makes perfect sense if this is the case.

Right, raid bosses are "defined" as skull which is taken to mean your level plus three, but other mobs that are shown as skull do have a set numerical level, but are simply "way higher than you". This also applies to players from the other faction, which Tycho of Penny Arcade once referred to as "level fuck".

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

◊ Cathela

I don't want to get going on another rant about BoL, but I did want to comment on this and point out that basically this is about the worst possible case: You have to stay within 10 yards of the beacon to get the healing, and the healing from multiple beacons doesn't stack, which was really the only possibility for coolness that I could think of for this spell. The 94% spellpower coefficient is equivalent to a 50% +healing coefficient, which isn't terrible, but it's less than the 100% a lot of us were hoping for.

I'll reserve further judgement until this gets more actual in-game testing, but in my view this still looks really bad from a theorycrafting standpoint.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Hulabaloon

On a side note, It seems to me that Swift Retribution (9th tier Ret) will be obsolete since it won't stack with shaman 10/20% haste totems (I read this somewhere, not sure where now). If that's the case it could be that we'll see Sheath specced Holy Paladins being the ones running with ret aura.

Maybe with a build like this for example

 

Marcos

I can see it being obsolete for players other than the Paladin who are receiving both the Shaman totem and the aura, but I can't see why the two wouldn't stack for the Paladin him/herself. I thought the patch note changing haste mods was that non-self haste mods would not stack. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

 

flyingtoastr

They're going to have to change how haste mechanics stack, otherwise Ret Pallys and Boomkin Druids lost almost all their new shiny raid utility to a stupid baseline shaman totem.

Sheathbot still sucks.

Divine Favor still costs mana.