WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 336

allythepally · 10/08/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kigale

I'm starting to really like the Holy tree. The new talents are making old ones better. Divine Favor never really did it for me; in pve crit rates are high enough, and 90% of heals over healed anyway, in pvp it was ok but not nearly as powerful as Nature's Swiftness. Now with IoL it should be useful in all situations.

For anybody that's interested I did some quick math: with Benediction, Illumination returns 66.66% on HS crits. Does a IoL FoL benefit from benediction?

I'm liking it a lot too. Once they push out those buffs, it won't feel like buying 8 points of crap to get something awesome.

About HS: I didn't believe it at first, but testing confirms: HS crits do return 66% of the cost. Or, put a different way: the return is based off of the pre-talent cost. So overall a crit HS costs 30% of its untalented base cost, which (combined with the huge crit rates at 80) brings it a lot closer to FoL in mana-efficiency.

Janraea · 10/08/08, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by GSH

It might be intended. Sacred Shield is our version of a HoT, and multiple priests/druids can stack HoTs, so it makes sense that multiple paladins should be able to stack SS.

If it stuck around like that, top end raid groups would be 1 Holydin, 20 retadins, a feral tank or two, and some buffbots. A tank with 21 SS on it would be pretty easy to keep up, aye?

• frmorrison · 10/08/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

If it stuck around like that, top end raid groups would be 1 Holydin, 20 retadins, a feral tank or two, and some buffbots. A tank with 21 SS on it would be pretty easy to keep up, aye?

I doubt it is intended for SS to stack. Note there is a buff limit (around 20? I do not know what it is), so would limit the SS stacking.

Janraea · 10/08/08, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

I doubt it is intended for SS to stack. Note there is a buff limit (around 20? I do not know what it is), so would limit the SS stacking.

Oh yes, I was trying to point out the absurdity. Even if they don't fix it, a few raids being run that way would get us a hotfix inside of 6 hours :-P

SirSilk · 10/08/08, 2:35 PM

I was playing around with JotP and managed to find an interesting bug. Not sure if its been reported here or not, as I don't have the desire to search this whole thead. I posted it on the wow bug forums, but the post got deleted.

If you start with only 1 point in JotP and Judge, then put in second point and Judge, you get two JotP buffs. You can actually get 5 different JotP buffs on unique timers, one for each %. With Lights grace and 5 JotP buffs I was at 1.5 second holy lights for 28 seconds. Throw in a little DI and you can get a nice little mana regen engine with enough crit.

Rasputin · 10/08/08, 2:57 PM

SirSilk, wouldn't that bonus disappear after a few minutes, once all your points are spent? Or does chain judging refresh the prior cooldowns such that you maintain a running 5-stack of JotP buffs at 3/6/9/12/15% haste even with 5 points spent in JotP?

Aerynlore · 10/08/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Rasputin

SirSilk, wouldn't that bonus disappear after a few minutes, once all your points are spent? Or does chain judging refresh the prior cooldowns such that you maintain a running 5-stack of JotP buffs at 3/6/9/12/15% haste even with 5 points spent in JotP?

And even if you could maintain this 5-stack the entire fight. No one is going to spend 50g every mob to go respec to have one fight with a huge stack of haste. I suspect that this is a running "bug" with all talents that are programmaticaly similar to JotP, but Blizz realizes that extremely minor situations where this might possibly occur, and as such has dismissed it as deeply low on their priority to fix.

SirSilk · 10/08/08, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Aerynlore

And even if you could maintain this 5-stack the entire fight. No one is going to spend 50g every mob to go respec to have one fight with a huge stack of haste. I suspect that this is a running "bug" with all talents that are programmaticaly similar to JotP, but Blizz realizes that extremely minor situations where this might possibly occur, and as such has dismissed it as deeply low on their priority to fix.

I didn't say this was the be all end all of bugs. I simply stated how it works, not what practical applications it had. I'm certain it will be fixed eventually.

No, you can not maintain the individual debuffs, only the last one. You do end up with 28 seconds of a 5 stack.

You don't typically need JotP or Beacon of Light for trash pulls in a raid setting, so there would be no need to go respec. You would however have the ability to wait until the first boss and attempt to find a way to take advantage of the increase in haste...if an advantage could even be found.

Fiola · 10/08/08, 4:06 PM

If you're going to put in that much work AND gold to use the bug for 30 seconds, I'd almost say you'd deserve to enjoy it.

• frmorrison · 10/08/08, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Fiola

If you're going to put in that much work AND gold to use the bug for 30 seconds, I'd almost say you'd deserve to enjoy it.

Hey it is 28 seconds!

Anyway, the focus required to judgement, then click another point, judgement, etc. can likely mess up your healing more than just normal healing.

Anyway, the buff should be fixed so someone doesn't exploit it somehow. I will report it tonight.

danielleon · 10/08/08, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

@danielleon:

1. Shield Specialization has been fixed to correctly increase block value from STR, which makes Redoubt an invaluable talent. Instead of simply decoupling the bad Redoubt from the great Shield Spec, combining Redoubt and Shield Spec makes a great talent into an awesome one.

2. Our only parry-able abilities are auto-attack and Hammer of the Righteous (Shield of Righteousness used the ranged hit table), which means Expertise is not a very important stat for us. Don't assume that we lost the 4% STA just because they gave us the 6% crit. We were given the crit as a 'fun' addition to an already near-mandatory talent, and the loss of the 4% STA was a fix to our scaling.

EDIT for Kigale: Earlier testing revealed that Holy Light's that were made instant by IOL were not affected by Benediction, nor were FOLs made instant by AOW. I assume that the same holds true for FOLs made instant by IOL.

Hello Prinsesa,

Thank you very much for clarifying the mechanics on shield specialization. I do have to agree it is a great talent now that it was fixed to include block value gained from strenght. I didnt know that was fixed.

As far as the crit bonus ... you claim it was given to us for "fun". Could you elaborate on what "fun" means for you, because to me fun = useless. Main reason I ask, is because if crit is now necesary for tanking, I could max out conviction on the ret tree and gain an additional 5% crit, else I will spend does 5 points in other more useful talents.

Lastly, not to bug you, but how is the 4% loss of stamina a fix to our scaling. Are we not the worse tanking class in the game regarding health?

Anyways, thank you very much for your help, I really apreciated.

Tilted · 10/08/08, 6:52 PM

"Fun" is why we should all play this game. Big crits are "fun" and this talent helps make that happen more often. If you want to look at it from a sustained standpoint, this is roughly a 6% TPS increase, which is statistically significant. Considering most prot gearsets have around 4% to crit before talents, the added 6% is pretty substantial. Point for point this talent gives more in 3.0 than it does in live, with the only nerf being that we're only allowed 3 points to spend in it rather than 5.

Nobody said crit was necessary for tanking. This talent gives a nice bonus; leave it at that.

The scaling issue mentioned compares us directly to warriors. Prior to the change we had a 10% modifier and a 6% modifier. Now we have two 6% modifiers compared to warriors that only have one. We still gain health faster from stamina than they do, but it's not as wide a spread as it once was. And don't forget that we've had our base HP increased since beta started plus another 3% damage reduction from Shield of the Templar, so the gap between the two classes is definitely closing.

danielleon · 10/08/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tilted

"Fun" is why we should all play this game. Big crits are "fun" and this talent helps make that happen more often. If you want to look at it from a sustained standpoint, this is roughly a 6% TPS increase, which is statistically significant. Considering most prot gearsets have around 4% to crit before talents, the added 6% is pretty substantial. Point for point this talent gives more in 3.0 than it does in live, with the only nerf being that we're only allowed 3 points to spend in it rather than 5.

Nobody said crit was necessary for tanking. This talent gives a nice bonus; leave it at that.

The scaling issue mentioned compares us directly to warriors. Prior to the change we had a 10% modifier and a 6% modifier. Now we have two 6% modifiers compared to warriors that only have one. We still gain health faster from stamina than they do, but it's not as wide a spread as it once was. And don't forget that we've had our base HP increased since beta started plus another 3% damage reduction from Shield of the Templar, so the gap between the two classes is definitely closing.

Thank you for replying so fast to my post, I really apreciated.

Dont get me wrong, I play for fun too; its just simply that for me having fun is being useful and random crit is not what I find fun. Personally if I wanted to do big crit I would play ret paladin.

Anyways, from what I am able to understand from your reply, is that crit are not important for tanks at all, and I should not bother to place points on conviction. I am correct?

Avitus · 10/08/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by danielleon

Hello Prinsesa,

...

As far as the crit bonus ... you claim it was given to us for "fun". Could you elaborate on what "fun" means for you, because to me fun = useless. Main reason I ask, is because if crit is now necesary for tanking, I could max out conviction on the ret tree and gain an additional 5% crit, else I will spend does 5 points in other more useful talents.

Fun might not have been the most accurate description, but basically it's "useful, but nothing to call home about". You definitely "gain" from the 6% crit (TPS gain), but at the same time it's not a make it or break it side effect that you need or something that you should stack. Considering it's a side effect of a talent, it's pretty ok.

Edit: No you don't need conviction as prot nor should you stack crit.

Originally Posted by Tilted

And don't forget that we've had our base HP increased since beta started plus another 3% damage reduction from Shield of the Templar, so the gap between the two classes is definitely closing.

As far as I recall the base HP increase was across the board for all classes including warriors. Was our gain larger than the warrior one? Do you have specific numbers?

Tilted · 10/08/08, 7:21 PM

I don't have specific numbers. I've just gone by what I've seen on EJ and on MMO-Champion, and I think I remember hearing that paladins got a slightly larger boost than warriors. Don't quote me on it.

EDIT: Found it!

Maintankadin :: View topic - Possible Major undocumented change

About halfway down the page is the following post: "So with naked hp now 8164 (base hp of 6754), the pal-war hp gap has reduced modestly to 1397 (i.e. we gained about 350hp relative to warriors)"