Tell me where in SWP you will be able to stop MT healing for 5 Seconds (allowing for haste) reliably without putting a tank in danger?
The same SWP as the one where you'd be able to get through the fights without using a mana potion every two minutes on the dot*. The raiding game is going to be different at level 80 than it is now, much like it was different at level 60.
*Mana Potions give Potion Sickness in the current beta built, disallowing you from using potions until you've left combat for a little while.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Tell me where in SWP you will be able to stop MT healing for 5 Seconds (allowing for haste) reliably without putting a tank in danger?
Kalecgos: Keep an eye on how many healers are on the outside healing the tanks. If sufficient amount use it right after the AOE. Make a macro that spams to let others know to pick up healing for a few seconds.
Brut: Unusable as holy.
Felmyst: After the third breath before he lands.
Twins: After one twin dies, and position changes. Macro again to have someone help pick up you assignment.
Muru: Difficult to get the full spell off, however maybe 3 seconds in between the time from the old void sentinel dying to the new one being picked up.
These are just some of the examples which come to mind. With the nerf to potions, as per the potion sickness debuff, we really won't have much of a choice. Just have to find ways to sneak it in whenever possible. Also keep in mind that you can do a divine favor holy shock + instant holy light to pick up healing if anything gets behind.
People are hailing the change to Divine Protection as the Paladin Shield Wall...but I thought it drops threat like DS did? Can anyone confirm/deny?
Divine Shield and Divine Protection have never dropped threat. They make mobs ignore you because their attacks are incapable of doing anything against you as you're immune while they're active. Changing Divine Protection to a damage reduction means mobs will happily continue trying to kill you.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Pally Evocation is better than some people think. Holy Pallies will at least have 10% haste (likely more) and Ret Pallies will have some haste to make it go faster.
Holy/Prot Pallies with Divine Guardian can bubble, then Pally Evocate while still "healing" the raid a bit.
If you are Sheathbot you Evocate after getting some HoTs up.
In addition, there is instant Holy Light and Lay on Hands to cast if things go bad while you are getting mana.
Yeah, but that was not the point. We've had the best epic ground mount in the game since the beginning of WoW, but now not only Death Knight will have one just like Paladins(and Warlocks)....They will have their own "Death Knight's Flying Mount" or whatever, and I will personally love to have a Paladin counterpart just like it is for the ground mounts...Even if I have to pay for.
On a class-lore sidenote: Death Knight now has its own flying mount. What about ours?
What about ours? The flying mount Death Knights are getting are more to do with them being a part of the Scourge before than it has to do with the class itself. It's a skeletal gryphon, which is apparently the preferred Scourge mode of flying transportation.
I can't see how that really relates to "our flying mounts", as I really can't think of anything which flies which can also be defined sanely as a Paladin exclusive mount.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
What about ours? The flying mount Death Knights are getting are more to do with them being a part of the Scourge before than it has to do with the class itself. It's a skeletal gryphon, which is apparently the preferred Scourge mode of flying transportation.
I can't see how that really relates to "our flying mounts", as I really can't think of anything which flies which can also be defined sanely as a Paladin exclusive mount.
What about a flying Unicorn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ? Out of jokes, come on, just like they're getting a skeletal gryphon mount we could get a holy gryphon mount. It's just a matter of gaming purposes really, as this is a fantasy world and similar things can be constantly added....There were undeads, there was Scourge in Azeroth during Naxxramas days, but still did you see them using any flying transportation?No, because it wasn't in the game. It's just that now flying mounts are in, and they thought of giving Death Knight one. The "apparently preferred Scourge mode of flying transportation" is just an excuse.
I really can't think of anything which flies which can also be defined sanely as a Paladin exclusive mount.
Pegasus. And for Warlocks, well, we've all seen the winged Nightmares before (basically, dark versions of Pegasi.)
On the note of Divine Plea...such a good idea. Even if its application is limited, it's yet another option to regain some amount of mana. Whether it's pop for a small burst (especially given the accompanying energy regeneration change), tell your tank to pop Shield Wall so you actually get a couple secs worth, or have your other healers pick up the slack for a few secs so you can regen the full amount, it's yet another *baseline* method of getting mana. It's also really good for prot OT's. There'll be a certain small amount of threat anyways from the mana gain, and then you can go right back to beating face, instead of sitting there auto-attacking and watching everyone bounce over top of you because you're tapped.
Need I say again? Baseline. No talent points to 'waste' to get it. Once again, having an option > not having the option. It'll simply be on the caster to find the right time to use it, and the most optimal way to do so, given the situation. And that's not such a bad thing, really. Think about this too; priests get away with bouncing in and out of the 5SR all the time to regen mana. Maybe, if you're having trouble figuring out how to best work this, talk to a friendly (and knows what they're doing) priest?
{re: Holy Shield scaling w/AP} Can't tell from the tooltip about scaleing, but will try to test when i get a second.
You might also check block value while you're at it, since that would be a semi-logical thing for HS to scale with.
Originally Posted by rozetta
It occurs to me that if they simply added a holy talent that converted str to int+mp5, they would essentially be able to make all paladin specs wear the same plate as Warriors and DKs, thus removing the need for SP/MP5/Int plate entirely. It seems like a rather simple change, if you think about it, and would eliminate a niche set of armor from loot tables entirely. It puzzles me as to why they haven't implemented this. Thoughts?
Someone suggested this earlier in the thread, and I've thought about it a bit myself. My best guess is that they don't want to carry the homogenization thing too far. All of the gear homogenization so far is for different classes performing the same roles, e.g.:
I think they could do something like what you suggest, but they probably don't want to make things too confusing for casual/new players.
Originally Posted by Chicken
*Mana Potions give Potion Sickness in the current beta built, disallowing you from using potions until you've left combat for a little while.
Got any more info on this? Does it apply to mana pots only, or others as well?
Originally Posted by Danath
It's just that now flying mounts are in, and they thought of giving Death Knight one. The "apparently preferred Scourge mode of flying transportation" is just an excuse.
We're really not in a position to complain yet; even if you count a flying skeletal mount for more than an armored warhorse (and I can see why you would, because it does sound pretty damn cool), we're still ahead of six other classes in terms of mount specialness.
(Updating the OP soon with all the new info. Thanks to everyone who's posted/collected all this info.)
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Got any more info on this? Does it apply to mana pots only, or others as well?
It's for all the 2 minute cooldown potions basically as far as I've been able to find information. Healing Potions, Mana Potions, Haste Potions, Destruction Potions and Ironshield Potions in other words (And probably more but these are the ones that spring to mind).
I'm basing that on second hand information though, incapable of personally testing these things. This thread over on the official beta forums has the most info: WoW Forums -> Potion sickness (Warning: Contains a lot of complaining about it too, but there's some facts in between)
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I have had a few beta testers tell me that the potion sickness applies to every potion.
Specifically, one tester used a haste potion and stayed in combat for a few minutes. Once more than 2 minutes passed and he was out of combat, the debuff expired six seconds later.
We're really not in a position to complain yet; even if you count a flying skeletal mount for more than an armored warhorse (and I can see why you would, because it does sound pretty damn cool), we're still ahead of six other classes in terms of mount specialness.
(Updating the OP soon with all the new info. Thanks to everyone who's posted/collected all this info.)
Death Knight accounts for 2 actually: one ground mount and one flying one. Ok, we cannot complain but still Paladins, Death Knights and Warlocks have a sinergy in that they are either similar (Death Knights/Warlocks) or counterparts (Paladins/Death Knight and Warlocks). Paladins call upon the power of Light, Death Knight call upon the power of Darkness and Warlocks call upon the power of necromancy and demons; I'd like to see a Paladin and a Warlock flying mount as well, if Death Knights get one.
Also, seemingly with the Death Knight class they are catering more and more "cool" things that could potentially let kidnoobs fall in love with them and saturate realms with this class...Something that was predicted long time ago, but seems increasingly more real as beta releases come out.
DKs are a "hero" class, so they get special items.
Kiddies may folk to DKs, but so what? It is a neat class that will be fun to play for a lot of people. Also, it means there are more potential tanks and dps for instances.
DKs are a "hero" class, so they get special items.
This implies that the other classes are considered "inferior", but Blizzard clearly said this is not the case. DK is "just another class"(of course with it's ton of cool things and features), the heroic thing being that you can start it a level 55.
Anyway, I have to concur: it's unlikely that we will get a flying mount.
Death Knight accounts for 2 actually: one ground mount and one flying one.
Noted, but I think you get my point.
I've updated the OP with all the recent information (I think). If I've made any errors, please let me know either in this thread or by PM. I'm still planning to do some more cleanup work regarding the "sourcing" colors (I don't really see the value in distinguishing between most of the categories at this point, since Blizzard appears to have stopped releasing patch notes anyway) and perhaps a bit more general streamlining.
EDIT: Questions I can think of at the moment:
1) Do DS and DP still share a cooldown, or is that basically the point of 3-minute Forbearance?
2) Can someone give a bit more detail regarding the exact mechanics of Sheath-rolling?
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Divine Plea is fine as it is. It fits the mold of almost every single mana regen mechanic (Life Tap, Evocate, etc.) of trading some effective damage/healing in exchange for longevity.
Ret pallys can use it to cut their DPS and regen (which is far more long term DPS than remaining in combat mode and DPSing during those 5.5 seconds).
Holy Pallys can get a crit holy shock and sit on the instant HL buff while regening, cutting it short with an instant heal nuke if things go to hell.
Prot pallys shouldn't be having mana problems unless they are offtanking, in which case the 5.5 second channel fits nicly between hammer smacks.
Seriously, think outside of the box for once and stop whining. Shamans spend 4-5 seconds every minute and a half repooping totems and they still seem to do well with healing.
Prot pallys shouldn't be having mana problems unless they are offtanking, in which case the 5.5 second channel fits nicly between hammer smacks.
Even assuming we _did_ have mana problems (here's looking at you, outgearing!), most bosses have SOME kind of cast that takes a non-trivial amount of time to complete. Even a couple of ticks of Divine Plea should be enough to keep laying the hammer down.
There isn't even a need for a special flying mount. Who cares, we have Crusader Aura. We (still) have an awesome Charger.
You're getting all upset over nothing.
It wouldn't even make sense for them to just have a normal gryphon just chilling around Ebon Hold for no reason. Everything's *dead*. It makes sense for the flying mount to be dead too.
That said, I'm interested in Bellator's comments about how nice it would be to get back to Vanilla WoW healing. Considering I was DPS during that time, I never got to experience the joy of healing in Vanilla, but I can't imagine how it would be less spammy and still remain a challenge. The potion sickness may be a push in that direction, however, where you really need to keep a better eye on where your mana is being spent, being limited on your mana (for all classes) instead of just of limited by the Global GCD and cast times.
Kind of a little miffed at the sloppiness some of the pal changes were this build. Specifically from a ret standpoint, though, this is what I see:
1. PvP ret is too bloated and the talents end of ret are really bad and don't address the synergy issues Ret has in Arenas. Divine Purpose/Art of War aren't even as good as Vindication/Eye for an Eye/Improved HoJ/Divine Guardian/Blessed Hands/Stoicism/Unyielding Faith.
2. PvE ret can easily get all the talents it needs and have many left over.
3. Righteous Vengeance isn't good enough to justify its position. Obviously its focus is to up the mana/hp return for ret, but the dps footprint it makes is tiny compared to any other comparable talent.
Tell me where in SWP you will be able to stop MT healing for 5 Seconds (allowing for haste) reliably without putting a tank in danger?
In my opinion, I don't think that we can make any assumptions on how we will raid at level 80 based on these talents and spells alone. I believe it's not useful to imagine using these abilities in current raids at level 70. The raiding game at 80 is all speculation at this point.
As a side note, I can see myself using Divine Protection on my prot paladin quite often. There are oftentimes where I'll pop my Moroes trinket to reduce the probability of my death while healers are feared or otherwise incapacitated. This is a much more reliable and gear-independent way to do that.
Originally Posted by thedopefishlives
Even assuming we _did_ have mana problems (here's looking at you, outgearing!), most bosses have SOME kind of cast that takes a non-trivial amount of time to complete. Even a couple of ticks of Divine Plea should be enough to keep laying the hammer down.
I'm curious as to whether Divine Plea counts you as "sitting". In content you outgear, that would be a great way to regen mana as prot on content you outgear. A couple ticks of Divine Plea plus a nasty crit to the face for some Spiritual Attunement regen.
07/29/08, 10:42 AM
It's just that now flying mounts are in, and they thought of giving Death Knight one. The "apparently preferred Scourge mode of flying transportation" is just an excuse.
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