1) Do DS and DP still share a cooldown, or is that basically the point of 3-minute Forbearance?
I saw a screenshot of DP that had a 4 minute cooldown (from a Prot Pally since he has Sacred Duty). Since the time reduction talent affects both, I assume they have a linked cooldown.
I guess the 3 minute debuff is there to prevent Hand of Protection from being used.
That said, I'm interested in Bellator's comments about how nice it would be to get back to Vanilla WoW healing. Considering I was DPS during that time, I never got to experience the joy of healing in Vanilla, but I can't imagine how it would be less spammy and still remain a challenge. The potion sickness may be a push in that direction, however, where you really need to keep a better eye on where your mana is being spent, being limited on your mana (for all classes) instead of just of limited by the Global GCD and cast times.
Heals in Vanilla cost a lot more of your total percentage mana pool in addition to a relative lack of regen on gear. This lead the the advent of "heal rotations" where half of your healers would be actively healing while half would be OO5SR wanding/attacking a boss with JoW up. It persisted this way for a large portion of endgame until people started getting decntly itemized items.
In short, healing was more strategic. You couldn't get away with "lulz spam FoL for 10 minutes and get epix". It was "do I have the mana to cast this heal or should I try to hold out for something else?".
Kind of a little miffed at the sloppiness some of the pal changes were this build. Specifically from a ret standpoint, though, this is what I see:
1. PvP ret is too bloated and the talents end of ret are really bad and don't address the synergy issues Ret has in Arenas. Divine Purpose/Art of War aren't even as good as Vindication/Eye for an Eye/Improved HoJ/Divine Guardian.
2. PvE ret can easily get all the talents it needs and have many left over.
3. Righteous Vengeance isn't good enough to justify its position. Obviously its focus is to up the mana/hp return for ret, but the dps footprint it makes is tiny compared to any other comparable talent.
I was thinking about this also. It seems that for PvE, with AoW no longer useful, we have points to put elsewhere, but not much to really spend them on (what ever happened to precision?).
It might be nice if Righteous Vengeance would affect Crusader Strike too - with that change, I could call it about even.
Any word on whether CS is still proccing seals (judged or self-buffed)?
From what I've seen of ret since this patch (from posts, videos, etc.) it still looks pretty nice, although if it's "polished" any further, it might be time to start asking for some real PvP moves (snare, charge, interrupt or MS or perhaps a drastic lowering of the Repentance cooldown).
There isn't even a need for a special flying mount. Who cares, we have Crusader Aura. We (still) have an awesome Charger.
You're getting all upset over nothing.
Of course there is no need, but now was there a specific need for Death Knights?I don't think so. Anyway, I'm not upset, this is a really minor grip naturally. There are more pressing concerns for sure
In short, healing was more strategic. You couldn't get away with "lulz spam FoL for 10 minutes and get epix". It was "do I have the mana to cast this heal or should I try to hold out for something else?".
Not to derail too much, but actually you could spam FoL indefinitely provided it was Rank 1, which at the time suffered no downranking penalty at all. All you needed was ~70 mp5, about half of which you could get from BoW alone. Even less if you had Illumination.
However, this kind of healing was the most boring thing you can imagine, so I doubt that's what people are getting nostalgic for.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
From looking at Sheath of light screenies etc, I believe the mechanic for it works as follows. I need to do some testing of this to confirm.
1) A 2nd crit when you already have a HoT running doesnt waste the original HoT. It does this by carrying over the remaining HoT onto the new HoT so...
If you have a 400/3sec HoT Running and after two ticks you get a new crit which would apply a 500/3 HoT, it takes the 800 healing remaining of the original HoT and divides it over the 4 ticks of the new HoT, so you get a 700/3 HoT. Formula for this would be:-
Sheath HoT Tick = (60% Crit heal / 4) + Current HoT Tick * Remaining Ticks of Current Hot / 4
2) Because of No 1, this means it is possible to build up the size of your HoT with frequent effective crit heals. (I need to confirm this with more testing when i have the client downloaded) As an example:-
If you have a 500/3 HoT and after two ticks you get another crit applying a 500/3 HoT, then you end up with a 750/3 HoT. If after two ticks of this HoT you then got another crit applying a further 500/3 HoT you would end up with a 875/3 HoT. As you can see if this continues this will reach an assymptote of 1000/3 HoT
If we not define a Rolling Sheath as the period from the initial crit heal to the time when the Sheat HoT falls off the target, then over the duration of the rolling sheath
Average HoT Tick = (1/ (Average HoT Ticks Remaining at each refresh / 4)) * Average HoT tick of each crit heal.
ie, if we consistently got 5000 effective crit heals between the 2nd and 3rd HoT tick of Sheath then:-
Average HoT Tick = 2 * 5000*0.6/4 = 1500/3 (compared to just a single HoT which would be 750/3)
Assymtopically, hitting equal value crits between the 1st and 2nd tick would result in a HoT 4x the base HoT, between the 2nd and 3rd tick resulting in a HoT 2x the base HoT, and between the 3rd and 4th tick resulting in a HoT 1.33x the base HoT. (however this occuring is unlikely, but helps explain the mechanic)
Overall it seems a major buff for the spell, meaning fast, consistent crit heals are very desirable to keep a good HoT tick rolling.
Keeping a nice hot stack up with Sheath of Light. :P
Edit:
Originally Posted by bellator
Heals in Vanilla cost a lot more of your total percentage mana pool in addition to a relative lack of regen on gear. This lead the the advent of "heal rotations" where half of your healers would be actively healing while half would be OO5SR wanding/attacking a boss with JoW up. It persisted this way for a large portion of endgame until people started getting decntly itemized items.
Yes, well, we'll be at a point where we will have decently itemized equipment, though. So we'll have expensive heals, but pretty good regen (as compared to the almost-none you're describing). I'm guessing it'll be somewhat like healing in T3 content, then? What was that like then, with decently-itemized gear but expensive heals?
Very interesting. So, assuming this holds up in testing, it seems to mean that Sheath healing won't get wasted by subsequent crits (although of course it can still overheal).
Another thing you could test is whether two paladins can roll a single sheath (which would be pretty damn powerful), or if each gets his own. Obviously you'd need help for that.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Very interesting. So, assuming this holds up in testing, it seems to mean that Sheath healing won't get wasted by subsequent crits (although of course it can still overheal).
Another thing you could test is whether two paladins can roll a single sheath (which would be pretty damn powerful), or if each gets his own. Obviously you'd need help for that.
In terms of testing the bit about Sheath healing not getting wasted is confirmed. The bit that I need to test is whether there is this asymtopic stacking effect whereby a 3rd crit refreshes the 1st crit's HoT etc or if there is some memory recording the total the first crit HoT has healed for and removes it.
If i can find a 2nd paladin will test the rolling sheath thing (add Bellator to your friends list beta palas and send me a whisper )
Yes, well, we'll be at a point where we will have decently itemized equipment, though. So we'll have expensive heals, but pretty good regen (as compared to the almost-none you're describing). I'm guessing it'll be somewhat like healing in T3 content, then? What was that like then, with decently-itemized gear but expensive heals?
When I say no regen i mean in comparison to our spell costs. The max rank HL spammed Mp5 usage is increasing by 2600, and we lost Pot spamming. Yes we will have better gear and an evocation which will work out at 100mp5, but the mana gain will not equal the mana cost assuming spamming encounters are kept the same.
As for T3 content with good gear, healing (with the exception of patchwerk) was never spamming. It was more about using the correct heals when needed, being efficient, not running out of mana. MT healing wasnt about spam, a number of bosses like thaddius only needed 2 well geared healers to keep the MT up, and even then they werent spamming.
I saw a screenshot of DP that had a 4 minute cooldown (from a Prot Pally since he has Sacred Duty). Since the time reduction talent affects both, I assume they have a linked cooldown.
I guess the 3 minute debuff is there to prevent Hand of Protection from being used.
It was really late last night when I was testing this, so I may remember it wrong, but I am almost positive that Divine Shield and Divine Protection have different cooldowns now. I remember hitting Divine Shield as soon as Forbearance went away.
1) Do DS and DP still share a cooldown, or is that basically the point of 3-minute Forbearance?
I haven't seen this conclusively answered elsewhere, so:
a) DS and DP no longer share a cooldown (in the screenshot DP in on cooldown and DS isn't).
b) Sacred Guardian also decreases the cooldown of DP.
c) For some strange reason, Sacred Guardian also decreases the amount of damage reduction the tooltip is claiming for DP by 25% per point (presumably it's linked to the attack speed reduction in some way). I'm not sure if this is just a tooltip error or not, I'll try to test it later.
The new Divine Guardian tooltip now includes DP in its description... so since DP is no longer full immunity popping my shieldwall actually leads to an increase in overall damage I take if any AoE is present? That would be fun... uhoh low health, "Don't worry guys, shield wall!"
---> 25 individual sources of damage redirected to a tank taking 50% of all those sources (30% each, 15% per person effective damage to the tank). Seems like it might add up quite quickly.
The new Divine Guardian tooltip now includes DP in its description... so since DP is no longer full immunity popping my shieldwall actually leads to an increase in overall damage I take if any AoE is present? That would be fun... uhoh low health, "Don't worry guys, shield wall!"
---> 25 individual sources of damage redirected to a tank taking 50% of all those sources (30% each, 15% per person effective damage to the tank). Seems like it might add up quite quickly.
Simple solution, don't use Divine Protection. Prot pallys don't even have enough free points to take Divine Pain Suppression anyway so it's entirely moot.
Just because the tooltip makes it possible doesn't give anyone a license to be stupid.
Agreed. That one change now appears to nullify any value DG might have had for tanks. Choice between Divine Guardian or Shield Wall? On the surface, taking reduced personal damage wins out in my book, for tanks at least.
Then again, it may be very much YMMV. As it is, non-warrior tanks do well enough without Shield Wall functionality. If the tank in question can trust their healers to keep them up (especially if they're more of an OT), then it might be still worth taking DG and skipping out on using DP...just use DS instead. It does make it very much a flavor talent, though. It's something I'll have to think about, personally.
Non-warrior tanks may do well without shield wall, but don't you think there is a reason that warriors are still after all this time THE preferred maintank? Fearbreaking gimmicks aside, it boils down to the fact that they have better oh-shit buttons than the other tanking classes; nothing currently compares to shield wall when your healers are dying/oom, or last stand when that boss is about to land a blow in between heals.
I hope that the 'reworked' mechanics of DP mean that mobs will not see this skill as an immunity of any sort, and thus will stick to the paladin... if you skip divine guardian (who has the spare points for that when prot anyways?) we will essentially be getting a 5 minute cd(4min talented) almost-shield-wall, baseline and usable by all 3 specs; i'll welcome that with open arms ;p
Simple solution, don't use Divine Protection. Prot pallys don't even have enough free points to take Divine Pain Suppression anyway so it's entirely moot.
That's true enough, but it's extremely odd for the tanking tree to have a talent that can make your tanking much weaker. They could easily just have SG not affect DP, which would preserve 95% of the useful functionality of the talent while removing this one glaring drawback. In fact, I'd be surprised if we don't see some kind of change to remove this issue.
Oh, and I agree with Arikah about the usefulness of this. Things like Ardent Defender are nice, but it's extremely handy to have a proactive damage-reducer available, not only for "oh shit" situations but also for pre-emptive use when you know a big damage spike is coming.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
The new Divine Guardian tooltip now includes DP in its description... so since DP is no longer full immunity popping my shieldwall actually leads to an increase in overall damage I take if any AoE is present? That would be fun... uhoh low health, "Don't worry guys, shield wall!"
---> 25 individual sources of damage redirected to a tank taking 50% of all those sources (30% each, 15% per person effective damage to the tank). Seems like it might add up quite quickly.
Well, there's sort of a gimmick use for it. DP then Pain Suppression the Pally Tank. Healers will be able to heal you before the next 2 boss attacks land (unless it's a thrash) and priest healing is increased below 50% health (plus you might have Guardian Spirit on you).
I wonder how this stacks with Pain Suppression? Can anyone find a disc priest friend on beta to test this?
A) Is it additive (unlikely)? This would make you take 90% less damage.
B) Is it multiplicative? Do you take 0.5*0.6 = 0.3 = 30% of total damage = 70% less damage? (I'm guessing this one)
C) Do they not stack at all, and DP just overwrites Pain Suppression, giving you 50% less damage taken.
I'm trying to figure out just how good the Sheath of LIfe is from a pure healing perspective.
Description of Sheath of Life talent:
Increases your spell power by an amount equal to 10/20/30% of your attack power and your critical healing spells heal the target for 20/40/60% of the healed amount over 12 seconds.
So lets calculate the average Sheath of Life HoT heal amount:
Assume average heal spell amount = 4000 (my current average is around 3k for raiding BT)
Assume average overheal = 50% (my current raiding number matches this - needed because reports on Elitist Jerks suggest that 'effective heal' is used instead of the total amount)
Assume average crit = 35% (my current number is 26% averaged between HL and FoL)
Assume amount of HoT healing that actually happens = 50% (most HoT's don't 'tick')
Assume full 3 talents points = 60% of effective healing returned
So the calculation is: 4000 * 0.5 * 0.35 * 0.5 * 0.6 = 210
So another way to look at this talent is to say that the HoT portion gives an average of 5.25% increase in healing per spell (210/4000).
If you add the spell power to this:
Assume holy paladin AP = 600 (my current pally is tier 5/6 equiped and at 446)
Spell Power increase = 600 * 0.30 = 180
Assume spell distribution: 70% HL's cast and 30% FoL's
Spell coefficients: 1.0 for FoL, 1.66 for HL
Assume no excessive down ranking
So the calculation is: 180 * 0.3 + 180 * 1.66 * 0.7 = 263
So another way to look at this talent is to say that the Spell Power increase portion gives an average of 6.6% increase in healing (263/4000)
Total this talent would give ~12% overall increase in healing for a holy specc'd pally. Pretty good for a tier 5 ret talent.
Yeah. That HoT tics every 3 seconds. Your Holy Lights land every 1.9 seconds.
In other words, the HoT is pretty damn useless if you're spamming a tank, and as a sheathbot that's all you can do (since you felt the need to drop any sort of healing utility for it).
07/29/08, 12:55 PM
Anyway, I'm not upset, this is a really minor grip naturally. There are more pressing concerns for sure
)
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