In a raid, if you get Blessing of Might (382AP fully talented at level 70) and stand in range of Battle Shout (382AP, same) and Unleashed Rage (+10% AP) you should be able to push your AP close to 1500.

EDIT: Also,

The tricky part of this is that your average overheal isn't what matters, it's your average overheal on critical heals which will almost certainly be higher, though I'm not sure by how much.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The trade off between full holy and sheath of life is 4% spell haste on a judgement and Beacon of light. So as a holy paladin I'm trying to figure out if missing out on BoL and 4% spell haste is worth the sheath of light.

My analysis was all on 'averages'. So I figured a 12% increase in healing out with sheath of life. Beacon of light doesn't seem to give that sort of boost - more situational.

*Edit* fixed 4% spell haste to be based on judgement casting. Mixed it up in my mind with the other holy talent that is based off a holy shock crit.

But he's taken into account overheal and HoT overheal into the calcuation, so why would the HoT be useless on a spammed tank?

Darion, at 80, if we stand not too far away from the melee group, with bom, bs, soe totem etc, an AP of 1500 probably isnt unrealistic

Because the only time the HoT would tic is in a pretty useless place.

0.00: Holy Light 1 crits
1.90: Holy Light 2 lands
3.00: Sheath tic 1 lands
3.80: Holy Light 3 lands
5.70: Holy Light 4 lands
6.00: Sheath tic 2 lands

etc.

Hell look at it with FoL spam.

0.00: FoL 1 crits
1.40: FoL 2 lands
2.80: FoL 3 lands
3.00: Sheath tic 1 lands
3.70: FoL 4 lands
4.60: FoL 5 lands
5.50: FoL 6 lands
6.00: Sheath tic 2 lands

If you're trying to tell me this HoT is worth something... don't. You're getting off so many heals right before and after the HoT that in any situation where the tank is taking enough damage to warrent it you'll have a resto druid rolling his lifeblooms and rejuvs. Leave the HoTting to classes that are good at it.

Blessing of Kings - Spell - World of Warcraft
Divine Guardian - Spell - World of Warcraft
Improved Devotion Aura - Spell - World of Warcraft
Improved Righteous Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft
Judgements of the Pure - Spell - World of Warcraft

Need I go on? BoL Holy isn't 51/0/0. You sacrifice some very useful talents for sheathbot, which only gains any utility if there isn't a ret pally around (and again, any smart 25-man will be running with one).

EDIT: read the talents in deep holy too. It's 6% more spell haste every time you use Judgement, it has nothing to do with Holy Shock.

The AP conversion is actually a bit low, since a typical Sheath build will also include all the lower-tier talented improvements to Retribution Aura and Judgements of the Wise. Consequently, you will probably find yourself hanging around the melee groups soaking up all the juicy AP and Strength buffs floating around, further boosting your spell power.

As for the utility of the HoT, keep in mind as a Sheathbot (as it stands now) you will have significant better spell power and crit than a Beacon build. You might well be able to afford to let the HoT cover the tank while you heal something else, cast a Judgement, or reposition. Not to mention you still have the Divine Favor/Holy Shock/Instant Holy Light emergency combo if things get truly out of hand.

I'm sure this build has been thought of, but

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

You give up Kings, Divine Guardian, Imp Devo/Righteous for, basically, 5% more spell crit.

If this HoT isnt worth anything then isn't a rejuv on a MT equally inadequate because there are so many heals going off all the time on MT? Or is it the case that we should just leave HoTting to te classes that are good at it and not take BoL, leaving raid healing to the classes good at it? (except in the rare circumstances where you can heal 15+ members of the raid at once)

And if theres a prot paladin a BoL paladin doesnt gain utility of BoK, Imp Devo, Imp Righteous Fury. All the extra utility they have is 6% haste and divine guardian traded for 5% crit and 500SP

If you are using the new talents, you should use the new coefficients of 1.00 for FoL and 1.66 for Holy Light

At 80, with BS, imp Bom, SoE Unleashed rage, 1500-2000AP will be easy to get. Thats 450-600SP which increases your FoL by 450-600 and Holy Light by 747-996.

Sheathbot far from sucks

Personally i think it's a little too early to write off either talent spec. Both are good, both have their benefits which vary based on raid setup and also will vary based on raid encounter come wrath which we currently know nothing about.

Sheathbot is poor at best for a 25 man (where a Ret Pally should be around and some Resto Druids), however for a 5 or 10 man Sheathbot seems at least fair (unlikely to have a Ret Pally and tons of HoTs).


Divine Guardian + Divine Protection seems useful for a Holy Pally. You take 30% of raid-wide damage, but only get hit for 50% of the damage. Assuming it taking half of 30% wasn't too much to kill you, it is like a mini-Evocation that only takes a GCD.

So sheathe sucks because kings and imp devo aura are better? Those are both pick uppable by other paladins as well. How many raids take only 1 paladin anyway?

BoK is covered, but Imp Devo may not be picked up by the Prot Pally since the tree is very bloated. Even if the Prot has imp Devo Aura, it only has 30 yard range. Most casters and hunters go beyond 30 yards, so it can be useful to have two people with it.

Imp RF is just 6% damage reduction, which only affects the person with RF up.

Actually most Druids won't rejuv a tank unless there is some massive damage going off because lifebloom is that good, so yeah, Rejuv sucks too.

Prot pallys don't have room to pick up Improved Devo. Improved RF is a self buff, you don't "lose" that utility. And again, you lose any possible to deal with damage on more than 1 person by speccing sheathbot. That is as simple as it gets. BoL exists, there are a fair number of fights it could be truly incredible, stop pretending it doesn't exist because it makes your baby spec look worse.

With 1 ret/1 prot/1 holy Kings and especially Improved Devo are only "pickuppable" by the Holy Pally.

I think it's pretty early to be treating that as a foregone conclusion. The utility in Ret beyond the 25-point mark is significant, yes, but not so much so as to make a Ret paladin required. I think right now deep Ret is in that spot where the skill and gear of the actual Ret paladin in question is going to decide whether or not he's worth bringing (which is as it should be.) Conversely, one might also say that the Prot half of a BoL/prot build is largely useless if you have a prot paladin, and you might as well be Holy/Ret instead.

As for your argument about the timing of the HoT ticks, I don't really see how that makes the Sheath HoT different from any other 3-second HoT. Sometimes ticks land in between big heals, sometimes they land at the same time. In your Holy Light example, you've got the first tick arriving almost exactly in between two HLs and then second tick arriving almost simultaneously with the fourth HL. Looks like any other Hot to me.

Now it may be that the strength of the HoT is so low as to make it not worthwhile, and that's going to take a bit more analysis and probably a lot of in-the-field testing to determine one way or the other. But I don't see why the structure of this talent is so bad in principle.

I agree prot is a bit bloated, but its far from impossible to take, it simply means you have to sacrifice 3 points elsewhere. Hopefully blizz will remove the bloat.

As for RF, You don't lose the utility no, but if you have a prot paladin in the raid, a holy paldin taking RF doesnt gain the raid much.

On the topic of removing bloat, I had a sudden thought strike me. There are three talents in deep prot that are usually considered "standard" that are all 5-pointers - One-Handed Weapon Spec, Ardent Defender, and Combat Expertise. While they're all powerful talents, I think that Blizz could free up a significant number of talent points by cutting back in this area of the tree. Make Ardent Defender 2 points, 15%/30% damage reduction. Bam, there's our 3 talent points for Improved Devo right there.

It doesn't especially matter if a prot pally can pick up Improved Devo. I see 2 issues with it.

1. Improved SoR/SoV or Imp. Judgement will still be a better place to dump extra points than Imp. Devo if they remove some of the bloat.
2. Range. A Holy pally with Imp devo will not only always be within 40 yards of the tank (healing range) but will also most likely be standing within 40 yards of the majority of the rest of the raid. Remember that the 3% bonus is multiplicative with any other healing buff, meaning it is actually worth a fair bit more than 3% more healing, and the more people it can hit the better it is.

That part I'm not really in agreement with, as of right now I (the ret) will probably become the kings bitch with the spec below (can't decide what to do with that last point now that art of war is a pvp talent).

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

The biggest thing people will notice is no imp might. Still deciding I holy can pick that up or if I even need benediction (I don't put any points into it right now). The reasoning being only enh/ret really needs both might and wisdom and we can live with ghetto wisdom (I think, but again this may change).

Disregarding Sheath, what about putting 15 into ret for 5/5 Conviction?

I really haven't found it a big deal to include Imp Devo in hypothetical tanking builds. If I knew there was going to be a Holy/Prot paladin along then sure, I'd put those points into 1-h spec or something, but it's really not the crippling effect you're making it out to be.

And you're really going hyperbolic on the multi-healing thing. Healing two people quickly is easily done with a DF+shock plus an instant HL, and when you consider the casting time and the slow effect of Beacon, you're going to be able to do more good for 3-4 people with direct heals in almost all situations.

I'm not going to re-open the whole BoL debate, but if you consider the mana cost, the cast time, the amount healed, the speed of the effect, and the rather severe placement restrictions, then claiming BoL to be a must-have raid-healing talent is at the very least grossly premature. (The non-stackability of the healing already eliminates any basis for claiming that you need more than one BoL paladin in a raid.)

With raid-wide auras, if you can guarantee someone in the raid has Imp Devo, then I can concede that point to you. The trouble is, that would be pretty much 25-man-specific. Myself, I'd still kinda want to take Imp Devo for the fact that:
1) My holy pally may sometimes get knocked away, or vice-versa, leaving me without that valuable damage reduction while he/she runs back;
2) heroics and 10-mans, I may not always get an Imp Devo holy-pally healer.

I agree, I was just using that as an example. It was the one obvious spot in the tree that I spotted a problem, with those 3 (actually 4 with Reckoning, but that's situational at best) 5-point talents in a row.

Righteous Fury, and it's improved version, are self buffs. They have no raid utility outside making said paladin take less damage.

Come on, you're just being silly now. You can't categorically claim that threat talents are always going to be a better place for the points. If you have two paladins in the raid, one healing and one tanking, you're far better off having the holy paladin minor in Ret for the dps buffs even if he doesn't get Sheath.

The melee will be within 30 yards of the tank. Almost everyone else can be if they need to be. There may be a few fights where the spreading requirements make it impossible to get everyone in range, but you're going to have most of the raid in range all of the time, and all of the raid in range most of the time.

And 3% more healing is 3% more healing. With the talent, you do 3% more healing than you'd do without it.

Thats twice i've been told they are self buffs :p I know they are, it says paladin over on the left. But my point was holy palas with RF in 25-man raids are useful like murloc tanking on morogrim. With a prot in the raid he will do these jobs.