Shield of Righteousness is learned at level 75 so no level 70 Ret player can see if it is good dps .
Tome of the Lightbringer will increase the damage of the spell as well.
Ignoring Tome and tanking gear, assume the 70 player had 600 strength, adding 300 block value. Then the ability would hit for 600 Holy damage.
Not bad, but no where close to what Crusader Strike hits for.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Blizzard already has the solution for SoR coded into the game.
Right now the reason it is scaling so ludicrously well is not because of the AP component but because of the weapon speed modifier. You're taking a small percent of your Spell Power and Attack Power and multiplying it by almost 400% (for a 2-hander swinging ret pally).
All they have to do is adjust this.
Right now (live) SoR has different damage formulas based on whether you use a 2-handed or 1-handed weapon. The simple and easy solution: leave this in. Make it so that when you use a 2-handed weapon with SoR you get a smaller speed coefficient. It will still work as a wonderful DPS/TPS seal for Prot and Holy and won't vastly outshine real Ret Seals.
Shield of Righteousness is learned at level 75 so no level 70 Ret player can see if it is good dps .
Tome of the Lightbringer will increase the damage of the spell as well.
Ignoring Tome and tanking gear, assume the 70 player had 600 strength, adding 300 block value. Then the ability would hit for 600 Holy damage.
Not bad, but no where close to what Crusader Strike hits for.
Don't forget your shield comes with a certain amount of block value. If we assume it's 150, that's 750. Also, does anyone know what the SP/AP coefficient is for this spell? If we just assume you're only getting 750 and you can fit it in every 6 seconds without screwing up your regular rotation, that's 125 dps. So do you lose more or less than that by switching to a 1 hander?
I don't believe it's been said here yet, but the latest build took the GCD restriction off of Summon Charger. I was using it before simply because haste made it quicker to use and it doesn't use bagspace(irrelevant now), the GCD was the only annoying part before.
Don't forget your shield comes with a certain amount of block value. If we assume it's 150, that's 750. Also, does anyone know what the SP/AP coefficient is for this spell? If we just assume you're only getting 750 and you can fit it in every 6 seconds without screwing up your regular rotation, that's 125 dps. So do you lose more or less than that by switching to a 1 hander?
That would be 300 more damage. 150 BV from the shield would = 300 damage. So if you gained 300 from strength and 150 from your shield, then its up to 450 BV = 900 holy damage form Shield of Righteousness. Still a far cray behind CS.
Quick Q which i should no the answer to but no 100%, but for abilities which are modified by AP and normalised, the factor they are normalised by is different if you are using a 1H or 2H weapon right?
Quick Q which i should no the answer to but no 100%, but for abilities which are modified by AP and normalised, the factor they are normalised by is different if you are using a 1H or 2H weapon right?
Yes. Dagger is 1.7 speed, 1H-weapon is 2.4 speed, and 2H-weapon is 3.3 speed.
As for this heartstrike blue mention of working on bosses. I'm almost positive it cant work in the way of equating to a removal of 20% of a bosses health. It would be completely ott raid utility which would force raid bosses to have HP tuned around raids having this and force all raids to have it, which would be ok in 25-mans, but then how do they balance 5 mans? Assume they will all have a DK, increase HP and make it harder for groups without a DK or assume a DK is not present and make it ridiculously easier for groups with DK's.
I would be ludicrous if the ability worked like this.
Right now the reason it is scaling so ludicrously well is not because of the AP component but because of the weapon speed modifier. You're taking a small percent of your Spell Power and Attack Power and multiplying it by almost 400% (for a 2-hander swinging ret pally).
No.
SoR Damage-Per-Swing = WS * 0.05 * AP + WS * 0.10 * SP
SoR DPS = SoR Damage-Per-Swing / WS = 0.05 * AP + 0.10 * SP
SoB Damage-Per-Swing = 0.35 * ( Base Weapon Damage + WS * AP / 14 )
SoB Damage-Per-Swing = 0.35*BaseWeaponDPS * WS + 0.025 * WS * AP
SoB DPS = SoB Damage-Per-Swing / WS = 0.025 * AP + 0.35 * BaseWeaponDPS
Look at the AP term. SoR scales at 5% of AP. SoB scales at 2.5% of AP. This is before Seals of the Pure, Sheath of Light, or any other talents. The weapon speed cancels out and has nothing to do with the scaling.
As Cathela said, this is okay if the BaseWeaponDPS term dominates, as that will keep bumping SoB ahead of SoR. But under the current equations, there is always a point where SoR will outdamage SoB on AP alone. (The point is when AP > 14 * BaseWeaponDPS).
What flyingtoaster meant was to leave the 5% AP scaleing and 10% SP per WS of SoR for a1 Hander but change it to say 2% AP and 4% SP per WS for a 2Hander.
This way for 2 Handers SoC/B are better than SoR, but SoR is still powerful for a prot paladin (SoR could actually be more dps using a 1H than SoC would for a 2H which would be a bit odd, but total dps using 1H SoR would still be lower than 2H SoC when other abilities are factored in.
What flyingtoaster meant was to leave the 5% AP scaleing and 10% SP per WS of SoR for a1 Hander but change it to say 2% AP and 4% SP per WS for a 2Hander.
This way for 2 Handers SoC/B are better than SoR, but SoR is still powerful for a prot paladin (SoR could actually be more dps using a 1H than SoC would for a 2H which would be a bit odd, but total dps using 1H SoR would still be lower than 2H SoC when other abilities are factored in.
That'd be rather counter-intuitive. As a general rule of thumb, 1h/shield gives you more protection at cost of damage, 2h gives you more damage at cost of protection. With this SoR model... you will do more SoR damage and have better protection with the 1h/shield. Narf?
As long as the crossover point for SoR vs. SoC/SoB is close, I see no problems with SoR enjoying "better DPS seal" status at certain gear levels (or for certain encounters).
EDIT: I think I mis-read your post, but now I'm more confused. 2% AP and 4% SP per WS would yield 7+% AP and 14+% SP for 2H weapons (most 2H weapons have WS of 3.5+ seconds). This would increase 2h SoR DPS, thus increasing the DPS gap between SoR and SoB. Weren't we discussing ways to decrease that gap?
EDIT x2: Never mind the above edit. I was confused by your terminology. You said 5% AP+10% SP per WS for 1h as well. Note that the AP/SP coefficients given by Coriel are for DPS and are independent of weapon speed, so there is no "per WS" to factor in.
That'd be rather counter-intuitive. As a general rule of thumb, 1h/shield gives you more protection at cost of damage, 2h gives you more damage at cost of protection. With this SoR model... you will do more SoR damage and have better protection with the 1h/shield. Narf?
As long as the crossover point for SoR vs. SoC/SoB is close, I see no problems with SoR enjoying "better DPS seal" status at certain gear levels (or for certain encounters).
Do you honestly not?
I would really prefer that SoComm was the premier dps seal for Retribution, since it requires talent points in Retribution to obtain. I think it mildly unlikely that this will take place, but it would me the most sensible solution in my mind. As for SoR, it seems odd that a seal with does not scale with crit would be the best choice for Retribution. It may end up so, but it seems like a strange ending. But then again, stranger things have happened in wow.
That'd be rather counter-intuitive. As a general rule of thumb, 1h/shield gives you more protection at cost of damage, 2h gives you more damage at cost of protection. With this SoR model... you will do more SoR damage and have better protection with the 1h/shield. Narf?
As long as the crossover point for SoR vs. SoC/SoB is close, I see no problems with SoR enjoying "better DPS seal" status at certain gear levels (or for certain encounters).
I believe he meant that even if sword-and-board would provide more SoR damage, 2H would provide more overall damage.
I would really prefer that SoComm was the premier dps seal for Retribution, since it requires talent points in Retribution to obtain. I think it mildly unlikely that this will take place, but it would me the most sensible solution in my mind. As for SoR, it seems odd that a seal with does not scale with crit would be the best choice for Retribution. It may end up so, but it seems like a strange ending. But then again, stranger things have happened in wow.
I don't find it particularly interesting, no. Single seal spam is single seal spam, whether that seal's name is SoC, SoR, or SoB. Also note that even without SoR, SoC would likely be out-DPS'd by SoB, which would yield the same result of a "talented seal" outperformed by a "baseline seal".
Originally Posted by Prinsesa
I believe he meant that even if sword-and-board would provide more SoR damage, 2H would provide more overall damage.
I disagree with the idea that we want Ret paladins to NEVER use SoR. I don't like the proposal to make the baseline ability perform in wacky ways, just to produce the desired result.
Wouldn't it be better to have damage seals somehow tied to the type of weapon used?
Like SoR would scale better with 1hand weapons (or even better - with faster weapons), while SoC/SoB with 2 handers (or similarly - with slower weapons)?
Only problematic area is lev. 1-20 when SoR is the only damage seal available for both 2h and 1h weapon users, but since it's short period and scaling from stats at that point is minimal, I don't see why it should be a big issue.
The health and mana returned by the Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom effects now scale with the attack power and spelldamage of the paladin who applied the debuff (not with the stats of the attacker triggering the debuff).
Judgement of Light does healing equal to 18% of the Paladin's Attack Power plus 18% of his/her Spell Power.
Judgement of Wisdom returns mana equal to 9% of the Paladin's Attack Power plus 9% of his/her Spell Power.
The amount returned depends on the paladin's current stats. Hence, if the paladin gains or loses Attack Power or Spell Power after the judgement is cast, the judgement's strength will change appropriately.
A friend of mine had pointed this change out to me that was added to the original post. A lot of what I have been reading is the fear that a retribution paladin would be replaced by a sheath of light speced holy paladin. Assuming that judgement of wisdom would scale better with a full retribution paladin, would you not still bring the retribution paladin anyway? Even if sheath of light is the way to go for a holy paladin, shouldn't we be more concerned about the fact that the higher end portion of the holy tree is simply not worth the same value as sheath of light?
SoC is already outperformed, because its a bursty pvp seal with bad threat management. The question is SoB/SoM vs SoR and I think that SoR is by far the better Seal.
Edit: More than this SoC is probably the best leveling seal because of double JoC damage on stuned targets.
I don't find it particularly interesting, no. Single seal spam is single seal spam, whether that seal's name is SoC, SoR, or SoB. Also note that even without SoR, SoC would likely be out-DPS'd by SoB, which would yield the same result of a "talented seal" outperformed by a "baseline seal".
I disagree with the idea that we want Ret paladins to NEVER use SoR. I don't like the proposal to make the baseline ability perform in wacky ways, just to produce the desired result.
To the first part, it seems that the best single target dps will be achieved by twisting any seal with vengence since it's now 100% chance proc on every swing. So you twist to keep the dot up (even to judge I might say, see calculations below) if mana regeneration allow it. So don't worry, we won't just refresh a seal every two minutes and go /afk whatever in between.
There's no problem that your lvl 1 seal performs nicely at higher level, that's not the point. But why bother implementing other seals if they are outdamaged by the scaling of the one you start the game with ? So yes, SoR being usefull in certain situations, no problem. SoR being superior than seals you spend talent points and gold later on to get, I see a problem.
I actually don't mind SoC to be a bit left behind, if it's turned as a pure pvp seal for burst and stunned target judgements (with all the stuns techniques and procs in the game, it's quite powerfull for pvp), so let's say this one is alright now that alliance paladins have an real dps alternative.
But SoB / SoM should be the better dps choice for Ret paladins, or it would be a totally pointless spell ! It HAS to be worth the "you take damage" downside, and as a matter of fact from what we know today, it doesn't.
We could even try to figure out the impact of a lower Vengence uptime due to SoR not being able to critically hit, I don't think it would change anything at all.
And last but not least : I tried to do some calculations for SoV / SoCor (based on wowhead data)
let's forget about what happens before you get 5 stacks to make the calculations more simple :
If you already have 5 stacks, then SoV dps is Tick/3 + 1,2% * SP (since this is the direct damage you get when you apply the debuff and there's already 5 stacks applied)
A tick of 5 stack vengence being : 7% * AP + 17,5% * SP
So that's
(7% * AP + 17,5% * SP)/3 + (1,2% * SP) dps. Same conditions 3k AP, 900 SP, 138 dps weapon,
SoV : 133 dps
(the direct damage part can crit, but it seems to be a very small impact)
So with twisting vengence, you might gain around 130 dps (very rough and arbitrary guestimate) once you factored the lost of the other seal on the one swing you have vengence up to keep the stacks up.
What's interesting then is the judgement (wowhead data again)
JoV is : (1 + 36% * AP + 58 % * SP) * (1 + stacks * 0,1)
which gives : 301 dps ignoring fanatism and 30% jugement crit (*2 I think)
JoV (inc. Crits) is 301 * (1+30%+25%) = 465 dps and no health cost
So a 5 stack vengence judgement > JoB > JoR > JoC (non stunned)
and this seems to be quite linear with gear level since a 2K AP and 120 dps equipment keeps the same hierarchy (except for JoC being better than JoR curiously)
And I'm not even considering Seals of the pure.
So it seems that the winner is :
1. Get Seals of the pure in your template (3 points AoW + 1 point SoC + 1 point anywhere and there you go)
2. Get 5 stacks vengence (good to let the tank build aggro btw)
3. Use SoR and twist to refresh vengence
4. Judge vengence everytime CD is up
Finally got some numbers for this.
Divine Storm costs 659 mana at level 72. From this we can extrapolate that a Paladin's base mana at level 72 is roughly 3295 (DS is 20% of base mana). Right now a level 70 Paladin has a base mana pool of about 2953. Assuming it scales linearly that would give the equation for base mana pools between 70-80 a slope of 171 (this is noticibly higher than the slope of ~42 between levels 1-70, going along with the Wrath idea of higher mana costs for abilities it would seem). From this we can determine that the base mana pool of a Paladin is going to be 4663 at level 80.
If this is correct (and I strongly emphasize the "if") it would mean mana costs like nyah at 80:
Divine Storm: 932
Seals: 652
Judgements: 223
Of course I could be totally wrong and it could scale logarithmically or something whack. If anyone (not at level 72) could list some % of base mana ability costs at their level it would be superb.
Wouldn't it be better to have damage seals somehow tied to the type of weapon used?
Like SoR would scale better with 1hand weapons (or even better - with faster weapons), while SoC/SoB with 2 handers (or similarly - with slower weapons)?
Only problematic area is lev. 1-20 when SoR is the only damage seal available for both 2h and 1h weapon users, but since it's short period and scaling from stats at that point is minimal, I don't see why it should be a big issue.
that's what Toastr proposed, and it seems fair to me if you keep the fact that SoR 2-hand > SoR 1-hand overall when accounting for mele hits as well. Like someone said (sorry I don't remember the nickname) 2hander is + dps -resistance and 1 hander / shield is the other way around. And it should stick that way when counting the global damage (seal + melee)
Lvl 1-20 is not really of any concern I think. Don't forget that they will also benefit the renewal of our combat system (Yeaah revolution). They'll have damaging JoL from the start and won't need to judge crusader anymore for instance, which is I think quite a boost at lower level.
No more "Ok, hold on... First I put this on you, this and me, and ... Here we go, let's get started". Now you can directly start to kick ass from the start and deal the same damage than before when you had to first judge crusader (that did no direct damage), then put a seal on yourself, then start to hit and hurt the mob...
There was a discussion earlier about protection leveling needing to drop their sunwell gear for ret gear to level.
Blizzard Forums
It appears now that with this change hopefully you wont have to put together a whole new set of gear come xpac.
That post was specifically referring to Enhancement Shamans though, who've been changed to get attack power from agility making strength a strictly worse stat for them while it's currently one of their best stats. For a level 70 Protection Paladin however spell damage and strength are nearly equal in threat performance, it's not until you get Shield of Righteousness at level 75 that strength becomes exceptionally good in comparison. That is ignoring the block value benefit of converting the spell damage to strength obviously.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Interesting to see those new tanking items - it seems they're all really similar, give or take some parry/dodge rating.
Does anyone know what the new conversion of Defense Rating -> Defense will be at 80 and how much Defense Rating we'll need to hit the uncrittable/miss point?
Edit: OK, found this out:
540 Defense will be needed to hit the uncrittable point. However, there's no info on how much Defense Rating will be needed to obtain this. The best calculation I've seen so far put it at a disturbing 11.7 Def. Rating per point of Defense (compare this to the current 2.4).
I've been wondering about Block Rating. Since Block Value is being removed from tanking gear (due to DKs), I can only assume Block Rating will also. This means the only way to up Block Rating is via Defense Rating. I wonder if this just means that we'll stack Defense Rating up to extremely high values to get a higher Block Rating? I'm thinking about Warriors with this also, since they now have a long-cooldown 1-charge-only shield block move, unlike us who can sustain high block ratings via Holy Shield. Unless there's some generic stat conversion for Block Rating (outside of Defense Rating), it's looking like Redoubt is more useful than I've been thinking.
Has anyone looked to see if Defense Rating now gives more Block Rating than it used to?
(Forgive me if this is on some tank discussion thread already - I wasn't able to find anything on it from a quick Google, but thought it would anyway be relevant to the discussion of the new Paladin talents and abilities)
Does anyone know what the new conversion of Defense Rating -> Defense will be at 80 and how much Defense Rating we'll need to hit the uncrittable/miss point?
We're going to need a LOT of defense rating to become uncrittable: roughly 690 by my estimates, further compounded by the fact that we lost the defense skill from Anticipation and resilience will no longer work inside instances.
As for Block Rating, with crushing blows being removed, it's a thing of the past. We only liked it because it was a quick and cheap way to get to uncrushable, but now I'm hardly concerned that it's gone.
That being said, there are a few items datamined so far with block rating, partcularly shields, since those won't collide with DK requirements.
07/30/08, 8:02 PM
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