WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 48

bellator · 07/31/08, 6:29 AM

Looking at the new rating posts, there is around 107% increase needed in crit rating to obtain.

Now something that I cant quite figure out in my head which maybe someone can help me with

Dps stats like Str dont suffer from this rating change effect that crit/hast etc do, their increase remains linear from 70-80
In fact with the new coefficients, the scaleline of Str to dps will increase
As far as know in terms of itemisation points 1 str = 1 crit rating
Now crit rating -->crit % is lower so crit rating-->dps is lower
In terms of value won't this further widen the gap between str and crit/haste etc?

Danath · 07/31/08, 7:15 AM

There are new official changes at MMO Champion, directly from Blizzard...Highlighting a few

# Divine Protection now reduces all damage taken by 50% and increases time between attacks by 100%. (what?wasn't it 50% and 50%?)
# Fanaticism now increases chance to critically hit by 5/10/15/20/25%. (OVERALL chance to critically hit?Highly unlikely, but literally that would be the meaning)
*
* Judgement has been replaced with 3 new spells; Judgement of Light, Judgement of Wisdom, and Judgement of Justice. All Judgement spells are considered ranged attacks for purposes of how they hit and how they critically hit. All cause damage based on attack power and spell power.

- Judgement of Light now heals based on the Paladin’s attack power and spell power, the effect can not trigger more than once ever 4 seconds.
- Judgement of Justice will no longer prevent Fear effects, but will only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health). (is it still working in PvP, right?)
- Judgement of Wisdom now restores mana based on the Paladin’s attack power and spell power, the effect can not trigger more than once every 4 seconds.
# Righteous Defense no longer costs mana and the global cooldown has been removed. (good)
* All Seals have been reduced to 1 rank and now cost 14% of base mana. The duration has been increased to 2 minutes and are no longer consumed when a Judgement spell is cast. The effects can be triggered from all weapon based special abilities. (this is absolutely the best: yes, triggering Command on CS/DS IS intended)

- Seal of Blood now increases Judgement damabe by 45% of weapon damage.
- Seal of Command now increases Judgement damage by 30% of weapon damage, 60% on stunned targets.
- Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.
- Seal of Righteousness deals damage based on weapons peed plus an amount based on attack power and spell power, increases Judgement damage by 25%.
- Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds and now applies its effect on every swing, causes damage based on attack power and spell power, and increases Judgement damage by 10% per stack of the damage over time effect. (these changes are related to the Judgement portion of the Seals, right?)

# Summon Warhorse and Summon Charger mana cost removed and no longer causes a global cooldown. (good)
Stoicism (Protection) moved to tier 2, now reduces duration of Stun effects by 10/20/30% and reduces chance your spells will be resisted by 10/20/30%. (your spell will be resisted?every talent calculator is displaying "dispelled", which would be MUCH better honestly. Who needs 30% spell hit?...)

Those are...strange somehow. What do you think?

Prinsesa · 07/31/08, 7:31 AM

(what?wasn't it 50% and 50%?)

Reducing your attack speed by 50% really does increase the time between your attacks by 100%

(is it still working in PvP, right?)

If you mean the snare functionality, yes. Player-casted Fears will still work on Justiced players, this means all it'll prevent now are "<humanoid> tries to run away in fear" emotes.

(these changes are related to the Judgement portion of the Seals, right?)

Copying over my explanation from the other thread:

Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice all deal (58% SP + 36% AP). Let's call this Base Judgement Damage (BJD)
Judgement of Blood/Martyr deals BJD, plus 45% weapon damage
Judgement of Command deals BJD, plus 30% weapon damage
Judgement of Righteousness deals 125% of BJD
Judgement of Vengeance/Corruption deals 110% of BJD at one stack, and 150% of BJD at 5 stacks

Altirias · 07/31/08, 7:36 AM

Well, that's good news. It means CS, DS, HotR can proc seals (so the fact that HotR doesn't for the moment in the beta is just the reflection that they're waiting to solve some global bug on normalized attacks before working on this ability)

[EDIT] : damn you lousy azerty keyboard ! anyway Prinsesa, this is all yours

bellator · 07/31/08, 7:46 AM

I noticed by JoR were hitting for 1271 and critting for 2954. This is more than 25% crit damage bonus, and i dont have the meta gem, so cant figure out what causing the crit to be 232.4% instead of 225%

bellator · 07/31/08, 8:04 AM

[quote=Altirias;835361]Well, that's good news. It means CS, DS, HotR can proc seals (so the fact that HotR doesn't for the moment in the beta is just the reflection that they're waiting to solve some global bug on normalized attacks before working on this ability)/QUOTE]

If the HotR pans out to be correct, which it hopefully should, that makes SoV an awesome seal for tanking 2-3 mobs. With 2500AP, 600SP, you can get a 5 stack of Holy Vengeance rolling on 3 mobs for close to 1200/3. Once the first mob is down you dont need to build up a stack on the second as it will already be there.

This just promoted HotR from weak in my eyes to a top tier talent

Danath · 07/31/08, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Reducing your attack speed by 50% really does increase the time between your attacks by 100%

If you mean the snare functionality, yes. Player-casted Fears will still work on Justiced players, this means all it'll prevent now are "<humanoid> tries to run away in fear" emotes.

Copying over my explanation from the other thread:

Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice all deal (58% SP + 36% AP). Let's call this Base Judgement Damage (BJD)
Judgement of Blood/Martyr deals BJD, plus 45% weapon damage
Judgement of Command deals BJD, plus 30% weapon damage
Judgement of Righteousness deals 125% of BJD
Judgement of Vengeance/Corruption deals 110% of BJD at one stack, and 150% of BJD at 5 stacks

Good. And what about Stoicism?We need it to be really "reduces the chance for your spells to be dispelled by 30%". Pack it with PoJ, Divine Purpose and your Disc Priest's Pain Suppression and you have 8 seconds of dispel immunity during which you pop Avenging Wrath and you basically...win. I hope that's a typo.

Prinsesa · 07/31/08, 8:28 AM

So the Fanaticism note was just a typo?

It dawned upon me during my commute from work (between this post and the last one) that the only other way for SoC/SoB to catch up to SoR as a Ret DPS is Seal would be if it leveraged upon the fact that SoR cannot crit.

Back-of-the-envelope math indicated that jacking up crit rates by 25% via Fanaticism would have indeed produced the desired effect: Catching SoB/SoC up to within 3-4 DPS of SoR.

Altirias · 07/31/08, 8:35 AM

Fanatism only give higher crit rates on judgement and not seal i bieleve ?

So I don't see how it could make a difference between SoR and SoB / SoC since all three judgements can crit (and crit *2 now)

A couple pages ago I did the calculations on SoR vs SoC / SoB factoring crit rate on seal procs. SoR still ahead

Kugai · 07/31/08, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by rozetta

I've been wondering about Block Rating. Since Block Value is being removed from tanking gear (due to DKs), I can only assume Block Rating will also.

It'll probably be on Tiered tanking sets, I expect.

bellator · 07/31/08, 9:30 AM

SoR Bug

on Beta it appears SoR is not getting any SP coefficient at. Could someone confirm

SoV as best DPS Seal

Ok, there has been a lot of talk about SoR and it's ability to be a better dps seal than SoC etc. However it seems to have been overlooked (but i may have missed it), but SoV makes SoR's dps look pathetic in comparison

SoV 5 Stack Dot = 17% SP + 35% AP
SoV dps = 5.66%SP + 11.66% AP

We then you have to consider the mechanics of SoV (which i have just tested on beta)

A paladin with 4000AP, 1200SP attacking with SoV

Base SoV 5 stack tick = 1604

Now lets multiply that by 1.15 for Seals of the Pure, 1.15 for Vengeance, 1.05 for misery, 1.02 for retribution aura and 1.03 for crusade......

SoV Tick = 2340
SoV dps = 780

The paladin can then do 780dps by hitting the target once every 18seconds. If there are 2-4 targets next to each other, it will be possible with divine storm and switching mobs at the start using a 1h weapon to get the DoT rolling on all of them and keep it up with DS whilst still dpsing the main target

We know JoV is more powerful than JoR on top of this, so we now have the best dps seals being:-

SoV>SoR>SoB>SoC

Danath · 07/31/08, 9:42 AM

This is evidently a bug or incoherence. SoB/SoM is meant to be the dps for PvE dps, SoC for PvP dps, SoR and SoV for different tanking purposes. It will be fixed, of course.

Altirias · 07/31/08, 9:54 AM

yes but how ? it's been discussed for the last few pages but it's not that simple to figure out a way to solve this situation.

The more I think about, the more I feel it could be the fix we expect from righteous vengence. Lower the crit bonus (make it 5% for instance) and add a % damage bonus that would both apply only to the "ret seals" (SoB and SoC). Tune the numbers so that it gives a consequent damage increase that can be expected from such a high-tier talent, and it would allow theses two seals to outdps even talented SoR & SoV, wich makes more sense for Ret specced.

then the fact that other seals out dps SoB and SoC for someone not Ret specced is not an issue ; SoB is a physical dps seal, and if you're not specced Ret, why would you bother to take SoC in your template ?

bellator · 07/31/08, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Danath

This is evidently a bug or incoherence. SoB/SoM is meant to be the dps for PvE dps, SoC for PvP dps, SoR and SoV for different tanking purposes. It will be fixed, of course.

Yeah, it definately will be fixed. I'm hoping they will just make SoV/R 1 handed weapons. Make SoC baseline from lvl1 and put SoB in the ret tree where SoC is now.

I'm just concerned. They made sweaping changes to the paladin class, which on first sight fix a number of problems. However as you deeer into some of these abilities (AoW, Sor/V being better than SoC/R etc etc), then you can clearly see in terms of balance there was little thought about the changes made. I'm worried how things are going to turn out.

mclem · 07/31/08, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by DdarkDdemon

A channeling spell will get pushed back, just like a normal spell, only reversed, the time left on the spell wil be reduced.

So does that actually open up use of it for prot? I was assuming it was cancelled on being hit and would therefore work out as useless for us.

Might be nice for instances we're outgearing when we can easily swallow the unblockable hits we take while channelling.

mclem · 07/31/08, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

As for this heartstrike blue mention of working on bosses. I'm almost positive it cant work in the way of equating to a removal of 20% of a bosses health. It would be completely ott raid utility which would force raid bosses to have HP tuned around raids having this and force all raids to have it, which would be ok in 25-mans, but then how do they balance 5 mans? Assume they will all have a DK, increase HP and make it harder for groups without a DK or assume a DK is not present and make it ridiculously easier for groups with DK's.

I would be ludicrous if the ability worked like this.

I notice the description of Heart Strike has Blizzard's ever-popular get-out clause of "up to" in it. I suspect the effect of HS (now there's an overloaded acronym...) will be massively reduced on an average boss.

Prinsesa · 07/31/08, 10:13 AM

Without commenting on what's "supposed" to be The DPS Seal, I hardly think Blizzard is going to let a DPS version of Rolling Lifebloom stacks prevail for very long.

The only reason it didn't get fixed when Lifebloom did was because no one was using it at the time.

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 07/31/08, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by levk

How does heart strike work with agro? Still if he can do 2 million damage to a 10 million hp boss, might as well pay a soulstone for that.

But what I'm talking about here is viability of bringing more than one ret to a raid.

I post only to remind you: 25 raid spots, 30 class/spec combinations. If there is ever a reason to bring more than one of one spec, that is broken and either other classes/specs need to be buffed or that class/spec needs to be nerfed.

Also I just wanted to point out that I agree that Blessing of Wisdom is always useful to any class with a mana bar. It doesn't matter if Judgment of Wisdom has been buffed; with the increasing cost of abilities extra regen will never be completely useless.

bellator · 07/31/08, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Without commenting on what's "supposed" to be The DPS Seal, I hardly think Blizzard is going to let a DPS version of Rolling Lifebloom stacks prevail for very long.

The only reason it didn't get fixed when Lifebloom did was because no one was using it at the time.

Looking at SoV/R, the problem if they fix the lifebloom mechanic of it, is that it makes one of them redundant as a tanking seal. If SoR> SoV, people will use SoR, and now since a 5 stack SoV is easy to get, almost never drops off, if it does more damage people will use that.

they have a chance to be clever. Make SoR better than SoV, but make SoV better than SoR when you have AW etc up. This would mean for individual trash mobs, and fights like 4HM, Loatheb, (perhaps heigen and noth depending on their reset timer), people will use SoR since they wont always have their CD's . And on more static bosses, where a SoV stack can be kept rolling the whole fight people will favour SoV.

Altirias · 07/31/08, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Without commenting on what's "supposed" to be The DPS Seal, I hardly think Blizzard is going to let a DPS version of Rolling Lifebloom stacks prevail for very long.

Well, if they do to us the same thing as warlocks or shadow priest, It'll be more likely to see a low tier talent somewhere stating that your [whatever seal] has a chance to refresh the duration of vengence on the target.

I don't know if allowing us to have a dot running while carrying on dps with another seal is part of blizzard's plan to improve our overall dps, but maybe it could. The thoughts here and there about seal twisting to keep 5 vengence stacks up and benefit at the same time another dps seal goes along this assumption.

Maybe they'll nerf it like they did to lifebloom (erasing trinkets and procs effects when they're over) but that's basically all they can do

Roywyn · 07/31/08, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

Looking at the new rating posts, there is around 107% increase needed in crit rating to obtain.

Now something that I cant quite figure out in my head which maybe someone can help me with

Dps stats like Str dont suffer from this rating change effect that crit/hast etc do, their increase remains linear from 70-80
In fact with the new coefficients, the scaleline of Str to dps will increase
As far as know in terms of itemisation points 1 str = 1 crit rating
Now crit rating -->crit % is lower so crit rating-->dps is lower
In terms of value won't this further widen the gap between str and crit/haste etc?

Not really. In BC at 70 with some blues you have maybe 1.5k AP and a 90 DPS weapon. 200 DPS character screen.
To get a 1% increase, you'd need 15 strength or 1% crit (or hit or haste).
In Wrath at 80 with some blues you have maybe 3k AP and a 180 DPS weapon. 400 DPS character screen.
To get a 1% increase, you'd need 30 strength or 1% crit.

So doubling the amount of crit/hit/wahtever needed for 1% is just natural.

The problem is right that at 70 in endgame gear you have what, maybe 2.5k AP and a 148 DPS weapon.
Your stats are closer to 80 blues than 70 blues and you're still 70.

Or, from another perspective - Attack Power scales down relatively, because 100 AP in 70 gear is a lower percentage increase than 100 AP in 80 gear.

Giving your strongest stat (Strength) 5% more scaling from talents is what will widen the gap though.

bellator · 07/31/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Not really. In BC at 70 with some blues you have maybe 1.5k AP and a 90 DPS weapon. 200 DPS character screen.
To get a 1% increase, you'd need 15 strength or 1% crit (or hit or haste).
In Wrath at 80 with some blues you have maybe 3k AP and a 180 DPS weapon. 400 DPS character screen.
To get a 1% increase, you'd need 30 strength or 1% crit.

So doubling the amount of crit/hit/wahtever needed for 1% is just natural.

The problem is right that at 70 in endgame gear you have what, maybe 2.5k AP and a 148 DPS weapon.
Your stats are closer to 80 blues than 70 blues and you're still 70.

Or, from another perspective - Attack Power scales down relatively, because 100 AP in 70 gear is a lower percentage increase than 100 AP in 80 gear.

Giving your strongest stat (Strength) 5% more scaling from talents is what will widen the gap though.

I understand you point, especially from the point of view of blue gear, but for endgame raiding, the top end raiding gear now will be close to the starter raiding gear at 80. The value of strength on this gear will be increase due to the abilities change, but the value of crit rating will be less due to the rating change. Crit will catch up a bit due to higher dps, but wont catch up too much until we start seeing big increases over the starter gear in terms of AP, DPS weapons etc.

bellator · 07/31/08, 11:00 AM

I've edited my post hereabout SoV:-

WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion

I made a slight mistake in my testing and SoV isn't working like the old lifebloom. If you get a stack up with AW on and cancel AW it still continutes to tick as if it was on until the judgement get refreshed at which point it recalculates.

It's still the best dps seal

GSH · 07/31/08, 12:08 PM

Bellator, is SoV really doing 35% of AP on a full stack? When I originally tested it, it was doing 7% AP baseline, and stacks only increased the SP coefficient. That brought it roughly in line with SoB at 2.3%AP dps.

I assumed the new tooltip made a mistake with the brackets, but never re-tested it.

Original: 7% AP + V * (3.5% SP)

Current: V * (7% AP + 3.5% SP) ?

bellator · 07/31/08, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by GSH

Bellator, is SoV really doing 35% of AP on a full stack? When I originally tested it, it was doing 7% AP baseline, and stacks only increased the SP coefficient. That brought it roughly in line with SoB at 2.3%AP dps.

I assumed the new tooltip made a mistake with the brackets, but never re-tested it.

I will check this out. I havent really tested it out, i just assumed the tooltip data was supplied. Will go look at it now.

Edit: Confirmed, it is doing 7%AP + 3.4SP% per stack.

However now you mention it, i do remember when i originally tested it was 7%AP + 17%SP for a full stack. Probably the reason no one cottened onto its high dps potential....since it didnt have a high dps potential originally :p

Now the question is was the original or this new one bugged.

I guess it makes more sense for this to be bugged, because then S+JoR will beat S+JoV by 1.54%AP + 2.58%SP dps / second....about 100tps, so would be used for single target tanking, but for 2-3 target tanking, SoV would be used as HotR would be keeping up the Holy Vengeance DoT on 3 targets.

Tis ashame, i like this new version....its crazy :p