I made a slight mistake in my testing and SoV isn't working like the old lifebloom. If you get a stack up with AW on and cancel AW it still continutes to tick as if it was on until the judgement get refreshed at which point it recalculates.
It's still the best dps seal
Can we just switch seals and judge something else and keep the SoV ticking at AW rates?
Can we just switch seals and judge something else and keep the SoV ticking at AW rates?
No, as its not the judgement refreshing it, but the hits when you have SoV up that are doing so. If you switch seals holy vengeance will fall off after 18 seconds and
Can we just switch seals and judge something else and keep the SoV ticking at AW rates?
Actually, JoV is the most powerfull of all judgements with 5 stacks on the target. So you'll be wanting to judge vengence, which recalculates the dot ticks if I understood correctly what Bellator explained
Ok, with these numbers the base mana pool for level 77 is somewhere around 3960 or so. Imputing this into Excel with the other two values I had for base mana gives an equation of best fit like so:
I will have to slightly alter my previous statement regarding base mana pools at level 80. With this equation it seems they will be slightly lower, more akin to 4395 mana at level 80.
Again, anyone who can give any information on mana costs of any base-percentage spell (Judgement is ideal since 5% is such a nice number to work with) would help greatly in getting as close to the real value as possible.
Still need to do that OP update (it's coming, I promise), but I had some thoughts last night on the SoR AP scaling issue:
The problem (it seems to me) is that they're trying to kill two birds with one stone here. There are two fundamental changes to SoR in the beta:
Switch to a single rank that's intended to scale as you level.
Addition of AP scaling (obviously important for prot paladins, but also part of the new overall emphasis on physical damage stats)
They're trying to use the AP scaling on SoR to cover both bases, which I think is what's causing problems.
My guess is that the 5% AP->SoRdps coefficient was set to make the seal scale properly with level. Looking at the SoR damage equation for rank 9 (on live, obviously), it appears the seal does around 26dps base. A level 70 paladin with no +str or +AP has 442AP (see my armory if you want to check this), which would equate to 22dps with the new WotLK SoR. Not exactly the same, but close enough. So 5% looks like a good AP scaling factor for SoR to account for leveling.
But when you start looking at gearing up at the level cap, using current trends in gear scaling, things get out of hand if you use a 5% scaling factor.
The answer, I think, is to decouple the level scaling and the gear scaling. I think they can still keep the single-rank SoR; they just need to lower the AP coefficient and add some kind of base damage that scales with level. Doesn't have to be linear scaling necessarily, either.
As for tank threat, as I said before they can fix that by adjusting threat multipliers or whatever. They should adjust the damage to get the damage right, and worry about threat after that.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Without commenting on what's "supposed" to be The DPS Seal, I hardly think Blizzard is going to let a DPS version of Rolling Lifebloom stacks prevail for very long.
The only reason it didn't get fixed when Lifebloom did was because no one was using it at the time.
It did this on the same PTR patch that released BT and MT (forget the patch number), but never made it to live. I could easily get the SoV dot to tick for north of 1.2k on the blasted lands servants in s1 aegis gear (~700 spell damage) with a 31/0/30 build (vengeance easily outstripped holy guidance and sanctity was crucial) self buffed only. Basically you would start autoattack and wait for double vengeance stack, pop DF + holy shock, pop EVERYTHING and seal vengeance. Whatever stack you put up here is what it would stay until vengeance fell off (judgment did not reset it). It could've been a raid DPS route hardly affecting pvp with all the deliberate things you had to do to get it to tick hard, but main problem was gear. If your melee misses it can't proc vengeance to keep the stack rolling so you needed melee hit and if you hit melee vengeance proc could still get resisted so you needed spell hit as well. I don't know people might have seen this as a balance problem as well because at least the gear I was testing it with had a strong tilt toward survival with like 12k hp, 15k armor and like 250 resilience unbuffed which was something more than a year ago and serious work to take down.
EDIT:
Originally Posted by Cathela
They should adjust the damage to get the damage right, and worry about threat after that.
Why would upping threat on SoR not be a valid solution? I'm looking at all of this from a healer perspective and I for one would welcome a real damage dealing SoR for solo questing. Jacking up threat on SoR would rule it out as a raid DPS seal for ret and depending on how they do it could make prots favor fast weapons like warrior tanks. To me it's the prettiest solution.
Looking at SoV/R, the problem if they fix the lifebloom mechanic of it, is that it makes one of them redundant as a tanking seal. If SoR> SoV, people will use SoR, and now since a 5 stack SoV is easy to get, almost never drops off, if it does more damage people will use that.
they have a chance to be clever. Make SoR better than SoV, but make SoV better than SoR when you have AW etc up. This would mean for individual trash mobs, and fights like 4HM, Loatheb, (perhaps heigen and noth depending on their reset timer), people will use SoR since they wont always have their CD's . And on more static bosses, where a SoV stack can be kept rolling the whole fight people will favour SoV.
Actually, SoV had some use in a "max DPS/TPS" rotation even when outperformed by SoR. This is because even though SoR + JoR > SoV + JoV, 16 second of SoV + JoV + 8 seconds of SoR + JoR > 16 seconds of SoR + 2x JoR. (Seal twisting)
The 100% SoV proc chance and higher DoT duration will only make this easier to accomplish. Those two mechanic buffs alone guarantee that SoV has some use for max-threat tanking. (Though now that SoV doesn't have base damage anymore, this is now a matter of coefficients; 16 seconds of SoV + JoV would need to do more damage than 8 seconds of SoR + JoR for seal twisting to be useful)
On a sidnote, did the SoR/SoB comparisons factor in the judgement? That would throw off the numbers a bit, since Blizzard would tune the abilities assuming both.
edit:
Originally Posted by levk
It did this on the same PTR patch that released BT and MT (forget the patch number), but never made it to live. I could easily get the SoV dot to tick for north of 1.2k on the blasted lands servants in s1 aegis gear (~700 spell damage) with a 31/0/30 build (vengeance easily outstripped holy guidance and sanctity was crucial) self buffed only. Basically you would start autoattack and wait for double vengeance stack, pop DF + holy shock, pop EVERYTHING and seal vengeance. Whatever stack you put up here is what it would stay until vengeance fell off (judgment did not reset it). It could've been a raid DPS route hardly affecting pvp with all the deliberate things you had to do to get it to tick hard, but main problem was gear. If your melee misses it can't proc vengeance to keep the stack rolling so you needed melee hit and if you hit melee vengeance proc could still get resisted so you needed spell hit as well. I don't know people might have seen this as a balance problem as well because at least the gear I was testing it with had a strong tilt toward survival with like 12k hp, 15k armor and like 250 resilience unbuffed which was something more than a year ago and serious work to take down.
I spent a bit of time observing that. You got 17% SP per tick per stack; which yields 85% SP / 3 seconds at 5-stack. That's around the rate casters scale with SP. (100% / 3.5 seconds) Throw in all the modifiers that Ret had, and SoV became the best damage seal (better than SoC), and SP became the only worthwhile DPS stat.
That was clearly bugged. The Blizzard fix was to nerf the SoV 5-stack coefficient to be the same as the original 1-stack coefficient, except now you needed to build up to 5 stacks to gain the same SP scaling as before. (originally, you got the full SP coefficient on a 1-stack; 5-stack did not have additional coefficient, it only had additional base damage)
JoB > JoR , but if you add the effect of the seal and the judgmement of the seal, then
using and judging SoR > using and judging SoB
the thing is, again, that you will very likely want to keep 5 vengence stacks and judge vengence, because JoV > all from the calculations based on data from wowhead and bellator's experiments
My guess is that the 5% AP->SoRdps coefficient was set to make the seal scale properly with level. Looking at the SoR damage equation for rank 9 (on live, obviously), it appears the seal does around 26dps base. A level 70 paladin with no +str or +AP has 442AP (see my armory if you want to check this), which would equate to 22dps with the new WotLK SoR. Not exactly the same, but close enough. So 5% looks like a good AP scaling factor for SoR to account for leveling.
Perhaps something like: SoR DPS = 25% * Level + 2.4% AP + 10% SP
That brings it slightly below SoB for AP scaling and slightly higher than (original) SoV in general (though SoV's judgements are higher).
Edit: This would probably make SoR the best non-Ret seal for short/levelling (<20s) fights, as the initial JoV is lower than the initial JoR, but the increased Judgement damage would push SoV ahead on longer fights. Would have to actually do math to determine the real breakpoint, though.
Fiola, personally, and this is only my opinion, i would prefer it if they added a 20sec CD to seals to remove seal twisting. I've never been a big fan of totem or seal twisting. They've done us a favour increase duration of seals to 2min, and with judgements, holy shield, hotr, sotr, consecration, exorcism, adding in seal twisting will make it a nightmare to get any semblance of a good cycle going, and make working out if the loss elsewhere in the cycle due to the twisting is outweighed by the gain in twisting
Fiola, personally, and this is only my opinion, i would prefer it if they added a 20sec CD to seals to remove seal twisting.
With Judgement, CS, and DS (Cons and Exorcism situationally) all on the GCD, you only have limited chances to twist, assuming you wanted to use CS and DS on cooldown. In addition, casting Seals is costly (it is good they last 2 minutes).
I do not think many people will twist will all those useful abilities and Seal's mana cost.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Seals already have a kind of cost in the form of their duration and expense. For a paladin with not a whole lot of intellect, changing Seals mid combat will incur considerable expense in addition to our now much more expensive attack abilities.
A GCD only barrier to switching Seals promotes tactical play particularly through the use of Divine Storm proccing large scale SoJ/SoW/SoL attacks and thus regenerating huge amounts of health or mana. This is tactical play we as paladins have never had. I don't necessarily agree with special weapon attacks proccing damage Seals since the potential for burst damage is monsterous, but then again our current burst damage wasn't enough so who knows.
As for the SoR problem, there's an easy way to solve it. Make it scale with level. 0.7*level*weapon speed plus the spell damage coefficient will render it more than useful regardless of situation. SoV just needs its coefficients gutting a bit.
Why would upping threat on SoR not be a valid solution? I'm looking at all of this from a healer perspective and I for one would welcome a real damage dealing SoR for solo questing. Jacking up threat on SoR would rule it out as a raid DPS seal for ret and depending on how they do it could make prots favor fast weapons like warrior tanks. To me it's the prettiest solution.
I suppose that might work.
My point, though, was with regard to people saying things like "but if SoR damage is reduced, then prot paladins will have a harder time holding aggro". Threat can always be adjusted once damage is fixed.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Seals already have a kind of cost in the form of their duration and expense. For a paladin with not a whole lot of intellect, changing Seals mid combat will incur considerable expense in addition to our now much more expensive attack abilities.
A GCD only barrier to switching Seals promotes tactical play particularly through the use of Divine Storm proccing large scale SoJ/SoW/SoL attacks and thus regenerating huge amounts of health or mana. This is tactical play we as paladins have never had. I don't necessarily agree with special weapon attacks proccing damage Seals since the potential for burst damage is monsterous, but then again our current burst damage wasn't enough so who knows.
As for the SoR problem, there's an easy way to solve it. Make it scale with level. 0.7*level*weapon speed plus the spell damage coefficient will render it more than useful regardless of situation. SoV just needs its coefficients gutting a bit.
Well, with the addition of "this effect can only occur every 4 seconds", it remains to be seen if this also effects seals as well as judgements. If it does you'll not be able to proc multiple wisdoms or lights using Divine Storm. Further, classes like hunters and balance druids(or any spec that has a high rate of fire) just had their regen from judgement of wisdom heavily reduced.
I understand the need for it, as a hasted rogue could have achieved around 400 health per second through judgement of light alone, but all of the hunter and moonkin theorycraft just flew out the window with regards to mana regeneration.
One would hope that the proc rate, given that it now has an effective internal cooldown per player, has been changed to 100%. This at least would make the theorycraft very straightforward.
Assuming a 500 point proc(an estimate based on a raid buffed ret paladin) of judgement of wisdom per four seconds.
500 / 4 = 125 * 5 = 625 mana per 5 for every class. Realistically you'll see much closer to a proc every 6 seconds for around 416 mana per 5. With higher rate of fire classes benefitting slightly more and lower rate of fire classes benefitting slightly less.
Fiola, personally, and this is only my opinion, i would prefer it if they added a 20sec CD to seals to remove seal twisting. I've never been a big fan of totem or seal twisting. They've done us a favour increase duration of seals to 2min, and with judgements, holy shield, hotr, sotr, consecration, exorcism, adding in seal twisting will make it a nightmare to get any semblance of a good cycle going, and make working out if the loss elsewhere in the cycle due to the twisting is outweighed by the gain in twisting
No offense taken. = )
I don't think they need to use "hard" limits like a long CD, though. (You'd be boned by any purges, too) If they don't want seal twisting, then simply up the mana costs to make it "unviable". (Just like "seal twisting" SotC + CS is a retarded use of mana + GCDs; no need to change anything to make it undesirable - it's undesirable on its own)
Another issue is the question of SoC, and their "fix" to keep it from being too bursty with the live version of Windfury. Is it true there is a 1 second internal cooldown on it? If this is the case it would make your dps rotation very complicated with aut-attack, CS, and Divine Storm, each needing to be staggered. I'm hoping that is based on bad information, or otherwise removed.
As an Alliance paladin, and seeing the buffs we're getting, I just don't like the idea of of Divine Storming with Seal of B/M up. It doesn't seem at all difficult to nearly insta-gib yourself with this combo hitting max number of targets when you're raid buffed.
Seal of Blood only does 10% recoil damage on 35% of weapon damage. Even assuming high stats (maybe weapon attacks of 4000), that is 140 recoil per target, however DS will more than heal up that self-damage.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Seal of Blood only does 10% recoil damage on 35% of weapon damage. Even assuming high stats (maybe weapon attacks of 4000), that is 140 recoil per target, however DS will more than heal up that self-damage.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that the "total damage inflicted" referred to the seal damage and the white damage, i.e., for a 1000-point white hit the seal would do 350 holy damage and you'd take 135 damage from recoil.
Originally Posted by zenos
Another issue is the question of SoC, and their "fix" to keep it from being too bursty with the live version of Windfury. Is it true there is a 1 second internal cooldown on it? If this is the case it would make your dps rotation very complicated with aut-attack, CS, and Divine Storm, each needing to be staggered. I'm hoping that is based on bad information, or otherwise removed.
You could test this pretty easily on live by speccing for Reckoning and SoC, and then seeing if you can get two procs off of a Reckoning double-swing. That wouldn't tell you how long the cooldown is, but it would tell you if there is one.
Back in the old days when you could use the infamous Reck-bomb to deliver five simultaneous swings you could only get at most one SoC proc from the bomb, which suggests some kind of cooldown.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that the "total damage inflicted" referred to the seal damage and the white damage, i.e., for a 1000-point white hit the seal would do 350 holy damage and you'd take 135 damage from recoil.
SoB self-inflicted damage is merely 10% of the SoB yellow damage or 33% for JoB. Your white damage has no effect. In your example, SoB would hit you for 35.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that the "total damage inflicted" referred to the seal damage and the white damage, i.e., for a 1000-point white hit the seal would do 350 holy damage and you'd take 135 damage from recoil.
Seal of Blood definitely only applies to the damage done by the seal, and has always worked like that. The mana returns from using it are because of that not particularly high, as are any potential raiding concerns with using it because it causes you to take more damage. Obviously excepting Prince Malchezaar or similar mechanics.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Seal of Blood definitely only applies to the damage done by the seal, and has always worked like that. The mana returns from using it are because of that not particularly high, as are any potential raiding concerns with using it because it causes you to take more damage. Obviously excepting Prince Malchezaar or similar mechanics.
Thank you.
If we assume for a moment that SoC does in fact have an internal cooldown, and the PPM implementation remains unchanged, then haste rating will actually lower your dps using SoC.
Each special will suffer from the reduced proc rate. The ratio of white damage versus yellow damage is going to swing greatly towards yellow. Add in a very complicated dps rotation to stagger your SoC procs(which would vary according to weapon speed and haste rating) and this talent is effectively worthless.
Seal of Blood definitely only applies to the damage done by the seal, and has always worked like that. The mana returns from using it are because of that not particularly high, as are any potential raiding concerns with using it because it causes you to take more damage. Obviously excepting Prince Malchezaar or similar mechanics.
The damage return is fairly high on judgements though, definitely non trivial amounts.
At current judgement damage, SoB is definitely not a good seal to level with. 6k JoB crits result in a 2k chunk of health being sapped from you, that's enough to make it counterproductive for grinding (where you want max DPS/least possible recovery downtime).
07/31/08, 12:25 PM
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