WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 50

jere · 07/25/08, 8:26 AM

I know people have been tooting the removal of crushing blows, but this picture that was posted by a paladin at Maintankadin seems interesting. Note that the mob is "skull" level (+3 levels). He was indeed crushed:

http://www.vanifae.com/wp-content/up...408_225142.jpg

EDIT: unless skull is used for higher level mobs, but I thought that was "??" level, not skull...I guess I need to level again lol. Anyone know offhand?

Conq[SUN] · 07/25/08, 8:36 AM

+3 levels don't crush. +4 do. Think that mob is more than 3 levels above him.

Marcos · 07/25/08, 8:38 AM

Originally Posted by jere

I know people have been tooting the removal of crushing blows, but this picture that was posted by a paladin at Maintankadin seems interesting. Note that the mob is "skull" level (+3 levels). He was indeed crushed:

http://www.vanifae.com/wp-content/up...408_225142.jpg

Unless that particular mob is a new world boss, (which I highly doubt) "skull level" to a level 70 in the wild simply means that the mob is 10+ levels higher than the player. It is highly possible that normal crush mechanics based on level will persist, but that bosses will simply have their weapon skill toned down in such a manner that they themselves are unable to crush.

jere · 07/25/08, 8:41 AM

Gotcha.

I was under the impression that skull level mobs were bosses, and that higher level mobs were ?? for some reason. I haven't leveled in so long, so it wasn't fresh on my mind.

Marcos · 07/25/08, 8:45 AM

Originally Posted by jere

Gotcha.

I was under the impression that skull level mobs were bosses, and that higher level mobs were ?? for some reason. I haven't leveled in so long, so it wasn't fresh on my mind.

You're right on both counts!

But to clarify, when you mouseover a "skull" mob, it shows you Level ?? <mob type>. This is true whether the "skull" mob is a boss or just a monster in the wild.

Happy hunting!

Thorgred · 07/25/08, 8:52 AM

I'm still under the impression that for most tanking situations a paladin will want a spelldamage weapon.

Basically because we're looking at 200+ spelldamage from entry-level WotLK dungeon drops, compared to maybe +80 attack power. Obviously until live i'm in the dark as much as everyone else, but it seems to me that +200dmg will always be giving better threat than the equivalent strength you would get, even including the extra threat from slower weapon for HotR.

Yes, strength will be a higher scaling stat, but on this one particular piece of gear where we get oodles of spelldamge:

Slower weapon (melee dps 2.6 spd) would give +400 threat per 6 seconds given current gear from HotR, plus its AP.
Faster Weapon (caster weap) would be at least 800 threat over that same 6 second: given current ratios, 200 dmg = 100tps = 600 threat in 6 sec, with current seal scaling and spell rotations - factor in better scaling and rotations in LK...

So, if i'm reading this correctly: a +200 dmg weapon will still be better threat than a slower melee weapon.
BUT we'll be seeing that +200dmg weapon enchanted with Potency. =D.

Mokoto · 07/25/08, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Thorgred

I'm still under the impression that for most tanking situations a paladin will want a spelldamage weapon.

Basically because we're looking at 200+ spelldamage from entry-level WotLK dungeon drops, compared to maybe +80 attack power. Obviously until live i'm in the dark as much as everyone else, but it seems to me that +200dmg will always be giving better threat than the equivalent strength you would get, even including the extra threat from slower weapon for HotR.

Yes, strength will be a higher scaling stat, but on this one particular piece of gear where we get oodles of spelldamge:

Slower weapon (melee dps 2.6 spd) would give +400 threat per 6 seconds given current gear from HotR, plus its AP.
Faster Weapon (caster weap) would be at least 800 threat over that same 6 second: given current ratios, 200 dmg = 100tps = 600 threat in 6 sec, with current seal scaling and spell rotations - factor in better scaling and rotations in LK...

So, if i'm reading this correctly: a +200 dmg weapon will still be better threat than a slower melee weapon.
BUT we'll be seeing that +200dmg weapon enchanted with Potency. =D.

The problem is that current spell damage weapons are too fast and too low dps to be effective with Hammer of the Righteous. Even in its currently broken state it is clear that it is affected by both the speed and and damage of the weapon.

I expect they want Hammer of the Righteous to be one of our main threat tools even in AoE situations given how cheap it is. 177 mana at level 70.

bellator · 07/25/08, 9:57 AM

Not sure if this should go here or the Ret thread,

But for those of you who remember I used to do a Ret Dps model until it got included in Rawr. I have been messing about with that model to try and get some rough numbers. I will try to get something to download over the weekend if I get the time.

I have factored in the new abilites and the estimates we have for all the coefficients. It assumes Judgement/CS/DS are spammed on CD (i know its not possible, but not worked out the cycle time yet). I have also made a few assumptions which i'll explain when i post the model

Some rough numbers i got from a level 70 paladin in the best of the best gear fully potted, fully raid buffed are:-

SoC 2750
SoB 3000
SoR 3470 :p (it is clear the AP coefficient part of this spell is completely off balance for RetDps)

oh and he gets like 650mp5 and 1300hp5 from JoW/L, but in the gear + WF he has like 40% haste. Kinda crazy still

These may be wrong, lots of checking to do etc

Gezua · 07/25/08, 10:10 AM

Some recent updates for the Retribution Tree:

1. Improved Blessing of Might (5/5) 50% attack power bonus
2. Vindication (2/2) 20% attribute reduction
3. Pursuit of Justice (2/2) chance you'll be hit by spells reduced by 2%, movement/mounted movement speed increased by 15% (does not stack)

Source: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

About 1.), a level 79 Blessing of Might will now grant 450 attack power. Nice buffs.

Cheers,
Gezua

rozetta · 07/25/08, 10:12 AM

The problem is, the other tanking spells should also scale with AP as well as spell power. This includes Consecrate, Holy Shield (or this should scale with BV), Avenger's Shield and Retribution Aura*. Since they're pushing warrior/DK tanking gear on us (str/sta/def), it makes no sense that most of the abilities we have that still don't scale with str are the ones used by prot. Additionally, it makes the sta->SP talent must-have, and it seems they're trying to go without must-have talents in wotlk.

One other thing that worries me is the second part of this talent, since it affect healing crits and prot is one of the few specs that will have very low crit, regardless. It should play to some other strength.

One last thing - prot obviously will still have ridiculous mana problems. I'd personally like to see them change "Guarded by the Light" to reduce the mana cost of all spells by reasonable percentage. It's obvious that regardless of such a talent, prot will be weak in PvP, and that's where the only concern about such a talent might ever lie.

*Actually, the non-scaling of Retribution Aura with AP, despite it being dubbed as the "officia ret aura" is worrying. With it's scaling only with spell power, the reflective damage will be strongest for a holy paladin and we can see where that will lead in min-max land.l

Cathela · 07/25/08, 10:37 AM

Pardon the mega-post. Just catching up on the thread.

Originally Posted by Eir

HotR is bugged at the moment.

I filed a bug report here:

WoW Forums -> [BUG] Hammer of the Righteous

Basically, it's ignoring AP derived from Strength and only scaling based on pure AP from items and such.

Thanks; added that to the OP. I've also added the recent information about CS and DS triggering all seals on the beta (bugged or not) and HotR not triggering seals. I think everything in the OP is up to date, but please let me know if anyone finds an error or omission.

Originally Posted by Conq[SUN]

Warriors take the off-hands. We take the main-hands. Simple.

Think [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade]

I doubt we will see much more weapons with tanking stats like dodge, parry and defense. I think Blizzard will put threat-stats only on weapons. (plus stamina)

I agree, and expect to see the same thing. The whole "tanking weapon" thing kinda made sense back when warriors were the only tanks, but it seems simpler to just eliminate them, let the weapon slot be the threat generator (as it is now for paladins) and balance all tanking gear around that. Even more so now that all three non-druid tanking classes will be using different weapon types/combinations.

Originally Posted by Zehn

All these paladin changes have got me both excited and concerned at the same time.

I'm thinking and getting ready for the launch. Seems to be a number of implications

(...)

How are people finding tanking in the beta with t6?

As Prinsea (I think?) said, the offset tanking plate in T6+ has no strength on it (ironically, because they didn't want to saddle it with stats that would be useless to paladin tanks). Probably the best things you can pick up now from current raid instances would be a slow one-hander and anything with block value on it.

Originally Posted by Chicken

Interesting, it appears most of the scaling comes from Shield of Righteousness though, and you're also making a large assumption that "high threat" on the tooltip means a multiplier on the threat caused. As far as I know all other abilities that mention "high threat" in their tooltip instead provide a static amount of threat, which matters in this case as it affects the scaling of the abilities by strength in question quite a bit. Looking at Warrior and Druid abilities it's fairly likely the "high threat" instead means ~400 static threat on top of the threat the damage causes.

That's the way it is now, but I think that's exactly what they're trying to change with this new focus on "scaling threat". The static threat value on Devastate, for example, is generally regarded as a problem, and I would expect most/all of the static threat modifiers to be replaced with multipliers.

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that off-hand weapon speed didn't matter for Fury Warriors as long as it's not a dagger, since the only attack affected is Whirlwind, yet the impact of that is not significant given the trade-off for smoother rage generation.

I think slow offhands are (at least sometimes) preferred since they don't eat up Flurry charges as fast.

Originally Posted by Conq[SUN]

+3 levels don't crush. +4 do. Think that mob is more than 3 levels above him.

Is this confirmed? Makes perfect sense if this is the case.

Originally Posted by Marcos

You're right on both counts!

But to clarify, when you mouseover a "skull" mob, it shows you Level ?? <mob type>. This is true whether the "skull" mob is a boss or just a monster in the wild.

Happy hunting!

Right, raid bosses are "defined" as skull which is taken to mean your level plus three, but other mobs that are shown as skull do have a set numerical level, but are simply "way higher than you". This also applies to players from the other faction, which Tycho of Penny Arcade once referred to as "level fuck".

Cathela · 07/25/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

6) Beacon of Light......

Has a 94% Coefficient with spellpower over the 15 seconds, split per tick
When cast repeatedly on a person it refreshes the timer. However if you cast AW then Beacon to get a large HoT then try to refresh Beacon when AW has fallen off get a message "more powerful spell", and have to wait for the Beacon to fall off people reapplying)
When you move into/out of 10 yards from a person you get a beacon buff which heals you (unsure yet who this healing gets applied to and if it can be used to trigger spritual attunement)
You can only have 1 Beacon HoT on you (from one paladin at least). If you cast it on 2 people next to each other they both only have one buff

I don't want to get going on another rant about BoL, but I did want to comment on this and point out that basically this is about the worst possible case: You have to stay within 10 yards of the beacon to get the healing, and the healing from multiple beacons doesn't stack, which was really the only possibility for coolness that I could think of for this spell. The 94% spellpower coefficient is equivalent to a 50% +healing coefficient, which isn't terrible, but it's less than the 100% a lot of us were hoping for.

I'll reserve further judgement until this gets more actual in-game testing, but in my view this still looks really bad from a theorycrafting standpoint.

Hulabaloon · 07/25/08, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by rozetta

*Actually, the non-scaling of Retribution Aura with AP, despite it being dubbed as the "officia ret aura" is worrying. With it's scaling only with spell power, the reflective damage will be strongest for a holy paladin and we can see where that will lead in min-max land.l

On a side note, It seems to me that Swift Retribution (9th tier Ret) will be obsolete since it won't stack with shaman 10/20% haste totems (I read this somewhere, not sure where now). If that's the case it could be that we'll see Sheath specced Holy Paladins being the ones running with ret aura.

Maybe with a build like this for example

Marcos · 07/25/08, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

Not if Prot paladins lean towards more strength on their gear, and remember Ret Paladins get 60% of their Attack Power as Spell Power with Sheath of Light.

On a side note, It seems to me that Swift Retribution (9th tier Ret) will be obsolete since it won't stack with shaman 10/20% haste totems (I read this somewhere, not sure where now). If that's the case it could be that we'll see Sheath specced Holy Paladins being the ones running with ret aura.

I can see it being obsolete for players other than the Paladin who are receiving both the Shaman totem and the aura, but I can't see why the two wouldn't stack for the Paladin him/herself. I thought the patch note changing haste mods was that non-self haste mods would not stack. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

flyingtoastr · 07/25/08, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Hulabaloon

On a side note, It seems to me that Swift Retribution (9th tier Ret) will be obsolete since it won't stack with shaman 10/20% haste totems (I read this somewhere, not sure where now). If that's the case it could be that we'll see Sheath specced Holy Paladins being the ones running with ret aura.

Maybe with a build like this for example

They're going to have to change how haste mechanics stack, otherwise Ret Pallys and Boomkin Druids lost almost all their new shiny raid utility to a stupid baseline shaman totem.

Sheathbot still sucks.