ijnek

hi,

is there a post on the Protection build for Paladin?
i hv search the forum, but not getting much luck...
a guide to teach mi where i should b investing my talent pts

 

Jaegan

Maintankadin has a subforum dedicated exclusively to wotlk, and would be your best bet. Maintankadin :: View Forum - WotLK .I would also politely suggest giving the forum guidelines here a second look.


One of the new talents I am still somewhat unclear on is Sanctified Wrath. I have not been able to find any consensus on what damage reduction effects entails. The current theory I see around is that armor is ignored and effects like power word shield, cheat death, and pain suppression are bypassed. The jury is still out on Ice Block and Divine Shield, though I would imagine they are not bypassed. I am curious if this is the case with the talent , or if it behaves differently. The wording of the talent is open to a fair bit of interpretation.

 

flyingtoastr

Well the tooltip says "bypasses damage reduction effects". Technically immunity is equivalent to total reduction but compared to the wording on a true bubble piercing ability (Chaos Bolt), which says "pierces through all defensive immunities", it seems different. I think it's more like SW allows you to pierce things which would reduce (but not entirely remove) damage while CB allows you to pierce effects which completely remove the damage.

Then of course Blizzard has never quite been known for uniform nomenclature between effects so it's still anyone's guess.

On a side note, I'm a little angry at the Blizzard developers. I had a very nice new JoW returns formula list for every class almost completed and they go and slap an internal cooldown on it. That cooldown is (frankly) a bitch to try and model for anything with a slow attack speed (casters) given the continual 50% proc chance and such, but I will try to get something going. Oh yeah, and JoL with a cooldown puts it right back to where it is now: completely and utterly worthless (at 3k AP for a ret pally it is less than 200 HPS even proccing on cooldown. Fucking BoL does better healing). So yeah, we're back to the TBC model of JoW being the only thing worth putting on a boss.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

JettJaguar

Ummm...What internal CD?

 

Prinsesa

The latest beta patch notes implemented a change wherein JoL/JoW can only proc once every 4 seconds.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Fiola

Is the proc chance still 50%? If so, for theorycrafting benefits, the proc rate per 4 seconds will be min(# eligible attacks / 4 seconds * 50%, 1).

Put another way, the old equations for JoL/JoW benefits are still useful; you plug in your actual JoL/JoW proc value into the equation for a MP5/HPS benefit. You also take the proc value, and calculate the max MP5/HPS benefit as if it proc'd every 4 seconds. Use whichever result is smaller. You only need to do the second calculation once for JoW/JoL. (the first calculation, you'd do for every DPS rotation for every class)

I'd expect that overall, JoW/JoL benefits would end up "normalized". Slow hitters will end up with the same number of JoW/JoL procs as they do now, but each proc will have a larger value. Fast attackers will still get more out of JoW/JoL, but their benefit will cap out instead of scaling infinitely.


C'mon. iLotP gives 4% of your total HP every 6 seconds. If you have 20K HP, you get 133 HPS from that talent. At 200 HPS, JoL outperforms iLotP, is baseline, is freely provided by your normal damage rotation, and can indefinitely benefit multiple people with zero mana cost or attention.


If you're expecting JoL to compete with active abilities for healing done, your expectations are way too high. Heck, checking a random BT WWS, Renew (costs mana, requires attention, lasts for 15 seconds) only does around 280~ HPS (840 HP/3 seconds). 70% of a renew that lasts indefinitely and applies to all melee without any effort?

 

Prinsesa

I'd really much rather they up the proc chance to 100% if they're already slapping a cooldown on it. I understand the reasoning behind the cooldown, but keeping the random proc still penalizes someone.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Noules

It should be pretty easy to calculate the limit of the JoW proc rate (or any internal cooldown-limited proc rate):

Let L be the limit (as the number of consecutive strikes goes to infinity) of the chance for any strike to be a proc (that the limit exists should be a pretty straightforward argument). Let P be the chance for a proc given that it's out of cooldown.

Then

L = P (1-L)^N

where N = floor(cooldown/strike refresh) since

Chance of any given previous strike to have been a proc = L

by definition of L, and therefore

Chance of last N strikes not being a proc = (1-L)^N

Then for the new judgements, for anything with a swing rate between 2s and 4s, the asymptotic rate should be 1/3. In practice it would be higher but seems to converge pretty quickly (1/2, 3/8, 3/8, 11/32, ...).

 

Prinsesa

There was some recent blue activity on the Beta Paladin forums lately

Regarding Beacon of Light

Regarding the Paladin overhaul as a whole

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Feanor73

Actually this internal cooldown on JOL/ JOW is excellent news for Ret pallies.

How would have it to be balanced for rogues striking every 0.5 sec or so ? There is no way devs would have allowed JOL to give huge amounts of HP/5 back to them.

With this change, slow hitters (like us) and fast hitters have the same benefits : the coefficients are not so important as they are still tweakable, now that the mechanism is normalised.

 

Altirias

I don't see how nerfing judgement procs for others is good news for ret pals

And all pals are not Rets (as incredible as it might sound). Maybe Prots and mostly holys will have weapon speed such that they would be able to hit twice in 4 seconds time. The ICD is a nerf for them as well.

by the way, does anyone know why SoC disappeared from Wowhead's WoTLK database ?

 

Stardusty

Something has struck me while on the way to work:

Retribution, despite the major boost to damage and the condensing of the seal/judge system, still lacks an 'active' buff/debuff purpose that is unique and requires us to be actively involved in combat, ala unleashed rage/misery and its ilk. Potentially the Judgements and Heart of the Crusader can be applied by a prot or holy paladin, and with Judgements of the Wise currently improperly implemented for groups raids, what is our exact niche for active buffage?

Just as now, all our buffs and debuffs are either hidden, rolled in or passive, with the latter being most dominant. If Judgements of the Wise is fixed to function as per tooltip, does it have the potential to be as desireable as Vampiric Touch? Or maybe I just need my morning's worth of tea.

 

bellator

It's still there:-

Seal of Command - Spell - World of Warcraft

 

• Chicken

Good to hear a confirmation of the intended Prot Paladin mechanics here. The numbers already made this clear for the most part, but it's good to hear it's also the intent of the developers.

In regards to the cooldown on Judgement of Light and Wisdom procs, the new system would still slightly favor fast attackers as they'll get closer to an optimal rate of proccing. With abilities with cooldowns like this which are not affected in the strength of their procs by your attack speed you get the maximum benefit if you can get as close as possible to proccing it on the cooldown, so if your attacks that can proc the ability come faster, you'll also get a higher benefit from it still as it's more likely you'll proc it closer to the cooldown. The effect will be much smaller than it used to be though.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Feanor73

I explained why : Because devs wouldn't have allowed it to become exceptionnaly good as weapon (or cast) speed decreased.

Coefficients are more easily tweaked than mechanisms.

 

bellator

Ok,

So I went out to test Seal and Judgement of Wisdom/Light. Here's what I found.

1) Judgements have an internal cooldown. Outside this cooldown the proc chance is 100%
2) Seals dont have an internal cooldown, but their proc chance is not 100%. Would guess it's 50%
3) The cooldown of judgements does not effect seals. they are treated completely independantly.
4) The internal judgement cooldown is on a 'per player per mob' basis, not just 'per player' basis. If two mobs are judged with the same seal, and you hit one then the other (or both at the same time with DS), then both proc.

 

Zaroua

Quite frankly, the potential scaling of JoL/JoW was and is still sky high. Would it be far fetched to say that well geared and raid buffed lvl80 Ret Paladin could go over 6-7k AP? Even at "only" 6k AP/1800 SP, a proc would yield 1400 health or 700 mana. On live it's 95 health/74 mana and it doesn't scale with cooldowns or haste. A part of me even wonders if it'd be worth bringing *2* Ret Paladins to a WotLK raid if the scaling stays the same; the second one running a different Improved Aura (probably Devotion, something like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft).

Dogma also claims that God has a sense of humor and at times presents Him as a joker of sorts, thus again lowering Him to human level. While I am certain God has a "sense of humor" since He gave it to us, I find it most difficult to believe He finds humor in sin since He will cast the unforgiven sinner into the lake of fire for eternity. Not very funny at all.

 

levk

I don't think the devs want to make dedicated ret or holy for that matter bring something utterly unique to a raid. And I don't think they should. Neat perks, something 'nice to have' are good things; something what looks like could be Heart Strike is not.

 

Wintern

It's possible, im 77 on beta atm and have 2750 AP with only Imp BoM as my buff, with raid buffs I think we will be around 5k AP in Naxxramas, that number will ofcourse get larger as we go further into the expansion, I expect we will hit 6-7k AP around Icecrown time.

The new judgement system, and the scaling is excellent I must say, im wondering though, with the hugely increased dps a ret paladin does currently, and the lose of some utility (with holy having to judge if they have the haste talent) if it's Blizzards intention to make us more of a dps class and less of a utility one, more dps and the bigger JoL/JoW procs could be all that is needed to make ret very very good for raids.

 

flyingtoastr

Actually it's not a huge deal for Ret Pallys; we have enough instants going out in between swings that we'll remain on cooldown a fair bit. However it is a big problem for casters. The reason for the nerf is obvious; hunters get too much mana. Sadly though a 4 second cooldown makes it so much worse for classes that only attack every 3-ish seconds to get benefit though.

So now that hunters get incredibly simple mechanics (Steady Shot spam pretty much means they can officially roll their face over the keyboard and win) they attack roughly every second. With a 3k AP ret pally you'll be looking at procs of 351. Said hunter will be getting a proc every 2 seconds, or about 887 Mp5. Yeah, it's a little broken.

Now look over at Joe McFiremage chain casting his fireballs. He casts once every 3 seconds so every 6 seconds he sees a proc of 351. That's about 292 Mp5, almost a third of what the hunter is getting.

So the intent of this nerf was to bring hunters back down into line with the other classes (theoretically Enhancement Shamans could have even greater returns than hunters, but that would require a hit-capped gearset, which no shaman will ever do). The problem now becomes the internal cooldown combined with the proc chance.

The hunter attacks fast enough that he'll get a proc very soon after the cooldown is up. Even assuming a worst-case scenario he'll be looking at a proc every 5.5 seconds or so, or still getting 319 Mp5. Joe McFiremage though has a much larger problem. With his fireballs casting every 3 seconds he has a large amount of downtime between casts where he can not be proccing. In a perfect situation of every cast after the cooldown proccing JoW he'd be looking at the same 6 second proc (292 Mp5). But since JoW is a 50% proc there is a chance his first fireball after the cooldown is up but the second, or a 9 second break between procs. So on average he will have a 7.5 second period between procs, or 234 Mp5.

The simple solution is to make JoW either a 100% proc chance and keep the internal cooldown or nerf the scaling and drop the cooldown.

I was expecting JoL to do something. A 185 heal every 4 seconds (assuming you attack that quickly) doesn't really do anything at all, regardless of how bad other HoT effects are. 185 health will almost never be the difference between life and death in a situation where melee is taking damage and isn't enough to give the healers leeway in healing to be useful (for example, on Felmyst's damage Aura of 1k every second the heal from JoL doesn't give enough to allow the group healer to downrank and save mana). It really does almost nothing.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

daemiaJadineCallec

In regards to ret, will the increased dot duration of 18 seconds for SoVengeance/SoCorruption, along with change to give 100% dot application each swing, cause it to be worthwhile to maintain the 5stacked dot?

 

Darian_TruBlade

Actually, the Judgements are a 100% proc now, assuming the testing done for the following post was accurate.

Classes with 3 second cast/ability cycle are still at a slight disadvantage, but it isn't nearly so bad as it could have been. At most, you'll see a 2 second difference between say an Elemental Shaman and a Fire Mage.

 

flyingtoastr

At 3k AP a rolling 5-stack of SoV is a good 481 DPS before percentage modifiers. It is most assuredly a large additional source of DPS, but it is worth remembering that Seals cost a lot of mana now (615 at level 80 assuming those numbers for base mana are correct). So twisting in 2 seals every 15-ish seconds is a drain of 410 Mp5. I just doubt we'll have the regen to keep it up.

As always I refuse to believe anything until I get at least 2 or 3 people reporting the same thing with extensive testing. If someone can prove this conclusively that it is a perfect 100% proc after 4 seconds (for example, grab a 2.0 speed weapon and you should have a proc exactly every other attack) that would be nice rather than anecdotal "it is this way now".

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

bellator

Edit: Beaten by Darian.

I can understand your uncertainty flyingtoastr, but the test i did was simply. Judge, hit mob once every 5-6 seconds. JoW and JoL procced every time over 30+ hits. (got bored then and thought it safe as the odds i was on a lucky streak were minimal)

 

flyingtoastr

Thanks bellator. That simplifies things a great deal.

Divine Favor still costs mana.