flyingtoastr

Haste does not lower the proc rate of SoC. You will still have the exact same number of procs of SoC at the same damage regardless of haste rating.

Even if "more of our damage is yellow" it doesn't change the fact that extra white swings are always additional DPS. Haste does not lower your DPS at all unless they fundementally change SoC mechanics to a non-PPM system.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

bellator

Actually Zenos is right, and haste does decrease SoC dps.

Whilst it doesnt decrease SoC dps from white attacks since the lower proc rate of haste is countered by more white hits which keeps the number of procs equal.

What it does do is effect the SoC dps rate from procs such as CS and DS. The number of these attacks per minute is fixed regardless of haste. With haste decreasing the proc rate it also decreases the number of SoC Procs from these attacks and thus lowers the SoC dps.

As mentioned above haste lowere the proc %, so the proc rate off white hits is the same due to increased frequency, but the proc rate from SoC/DS will be lower since these attacks dont speed up with haste

 

flyingtoastr

Yes, but haste increases your White DPS. Given that SoC and a white attack are roughly equal (SoC is 70% of a melee swing that pierces armor, so it's about equal to a normal melee swing at 30% armor reduction which is about normal assuming no armor penetration) you're still going to be looking at trading extra SoC procs for extra white attacks.

Honestly, if you're worried about SoC I would complain more about the internal cooldown that is going to really screw over your proc chances with yellows.

Big picture people. Haste might screw your SoC DPS slightly but your white is still going to go up by a very large degree.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

◊ Cathela

Do we know that haste actually lowers the proc chance on non-autoattacks?

Even assuming it does, I don't see how it's going to lower overall dps:

1% haste reduces yellow dps from CS/DS->SoC procs by 1%.
1% haste increases white dps by 1%.

Your total white dps is going to be far more than that one small slice of yellow dps, so haste will overall be a dps buff.

(Which is not to say that the current interaction between haste and SoC isn't broken; it is.)

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Dekkar

That doesn't hold true in fights where magic dispelling is required.

Remember, Dispel Magic is still 30 yards, not having benefitted from the 10 range increase that Cleanse/Remove Curse and their ilk got (I'm guessing because Dispel Magic has an offensive component as well).

So on dispelling fights, priests will be at 30 yards with you. Shadow priests have to sit at 24 yards and have adapted to that. Maybe the developers' intent is that as paladins, we should be a bit closer to the action than the clothies.

I don't actually think the movement will be a big issue. With a 6 second cooldown on Holy Shock, you can always use that and a Hand spell or Sacred Shield while moving. We don't know the mechanics of the boss fights yet, so maybe you might end up only wanting or needing the extra haste during mini-enrages or other mechanics like that.

 

bellator

Yeah total dps with haste will ofc go up, i was just clarifying what zanos meant in the haste--->SoC relation alone which as he pointed out is screwy.

If i can get a chance to see if SoC procs off yellow attacks is based on base or hasted speed I will, but thats a complete bugger of a test to conduct :p

 

flyingtoastr

While you're testing SoC try to see if the assumed internal cooldown is still in effect pretty please.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

levk

Maybe I'm just that dense, but I don't see any relation between haste and SoC damage at all. SoC is 7 procs per minute regardless of your swing time and instant attacks are bound by cooldowns. If you mean the internal cooldown of SoC procs relating with instants, that doesn't have anything to do with haste. Besides I don't think this cooldown and instants interact anyway - it's 7 PPM anyway you put it, if it didn't proc on your instant because it procced on your swing less than a second before it's still going to be 7 PPM. It doesn't roll to see to proc or not and then override because it procced too recently loosing a proc, it simply doesn't roll and that swing or instant isn't taken into account. Yeah SoC doesn't scale with haste, but it's not hurt by it either.

 

zenos

Sure it is. Its a PPM, and its based on the post-haste weapon speed. In current wow this simply means it doesn't scale with haste, but in WotlK it will proc from Crusader Strike and Divine Storm, meaning each special you use will have a reduced proc chance for additional damage. If yellow damae beats white damage(and I think there's a strong case that it will), Haste will lower DPS.

Please correct me if im wrong.

 

bellator

Soc isn't simply 7PPM fullstop. It's 7PPM based on the autoattack swing. It calculates a % chance of proc based on this 7PPM and hasted weapon speed. then on each swing SoC is present based on the % chance of proc. This is the way 7PPM is maintained even when weapon speed varies.

Other attacks outside of the autoattack use this % proc chance as well to see if SoC procs off them, so the end result is more than 7PPM. If haste increase, % proc chance decreases and and thus the number of procs off instants decreases.

I'm being dumb now. When did SoC have an internal CD? And what is it?

 

zenos

Please see my above response. Seals proccing on specials changes the equation significantly.

 

bellator

You were right about the overall effect of haste decreasing SoC dps, but you are wrong about the overall dps going down.

It's not a case of overall yellow damage > white damage, thus haste is bad. You need to calculate the extra white damage you will get from haste. You will then need to calculate the effect the haste has on the % SoC proc and then apply the difference to the number of instants to see how many SoC's you are losing out on. You will find the white damage gain will be greater than the yellow damage loss.

Brief example:-

Weapon speed = 4 (Soc% proc = 46.6%)
Haste = 100%
Hasted Weapon speed = 2 (Soc% proc = 23.3")
16 instants per min (CS+DS)
Weapon speed 4 means SoC from instants = 16*46.6% = 7.46
Weapon speed 2 means SoC from instants = 16*23.3% = 3.73

Thus SoC's lost in a minute due to haste = 3.73
White hits gained in the minute due to haste = 15

15 white hits > 3.73 SoC, thus haste effect on overall dps is positive.

 

levk

It's been speculated that SoC has a short internal CD because with things like old reckoning, windfury, and [Hand of Justice] you never get more than one proc per swing.

 

bellator

Really, i never heard this interpretation. My interpretation of this observation was this:-

SoC can Proc from extra attacks such as Windfury, Reckoning, Hand of Justice so long as the original white hit that procces windfury etc did not also proc SoC.

ie. 1 proc per white hit

Heck I even think i may have disproved the internal cooldown allready, as i'm sure i've seen DS proc SoC on multiple mobs Not 100% certain of this as not specifically looked out for it, and theres a lot of damage flying about on DS :p. But out this evening, so will check at weekend.

 

zenos

Sorry for the string of replies here but I'd like to settle this and be corrected if necessary. You are working under the assumption that white damage will still be the bulk of our output?

In a 10 second cycle with a 3.6 speed non hasted weapon...

2.77 auto-attacks per 1 Divine storm, 1.66 crusader strikes, and 2.28 SoC procs(42% proc chance, 5.43 eligible proc attempts)

For napkin math lets say that each strike does weapon damage(given the coefficients and lack of mitigation on holy damage of SoC and Divine Storm when it's fixed it is more reasonable to assume that specials will exceed autos, so I am understating my case in this example)

4.94/2.77 = 1.78 times yellow damage to white.


If there is a hidden cooldown, which appears to be the case that is a large issue as well. Reading over the beta Paladin forums I don't see this being discussed on any level, thus the request.

 

Bismar

I think SoC procs from Divine Storm and Crusader Strike will be a very small percent of paladin DPS. I also think SoC is simply not going to be a PvE seal and it's not worth worrying about. It might be more of an issue for PvP I could see, but I don't know how many retribution paladins stack haste for PvP.

However, I find the result that haste will actually decrease the absolute damage of any particular attack pretty darn funny. It demonstrates both: how bad SoC is, and the importance of buffing haste for melee special attacks (I'm sure our feral druid friends have some strong feelings about this).

If you are going to use SoC though, slow weapons just became way more important. Making SoC proc from special attacks is super-anti-normalized.

 

bellator

Zenos, read my post up at #1287. It explains why it doesnt matter that overall yellow damage is greater than overall white damage in the haste issue, since haste will simply give you more white hits than you lose SoC hits.

 

Rasputin

You can't just add the number of attacks to determine damage done. You have given us a ratio of white to yellow ATTACKS, not damage. There is the .7 multiplier for SoC, different levels of scaling, armor, etc.

 

zenos

Actually, its not a 7ppm, no if ands or buts mechanic. A 3.6 speed weapon has a 42% chance to proc SoC. (60 seconds / 3.6 weapon speed = 16.66 swings per minute. 7PPM / 16.66 swings = 42% chance per swing.)


In actual play, you could swing for a full minute and never get a proc, you could also swing for a full minute and get a proc everytime.

Now add haste in to the equation. Enough haste to make your weapon speed a 3.2 speed weapon...

60 seconds /3.2 weapon speed = 18.75 swings per minute. 7 ppm / 18.75 swings = 37% chance per swing.

In live. white damage exceed SoC damage by a large margin, so haste is an effective DPS increase. In WotlK, if I'm correct, SoC damage will be a much larger portion due to proccing off of specials.

 

levk

Yeah, but things like old reckoning and windfury generate normal attacks that are otherwise capable to proc anything else. It's just like sword spec. Like with old reckoning if you had SoR active and swing, it was normal to see SoR proccing more than once (SoR was also PPM back then). At first people thought they put in some clear chain of what can proc what because back then there was a ton of weapons with their extra damage procs and at first everything could proc off everything else. So if you took something like hand of rag, enchanted fiery, and wore hand of justice you could get a retarded proc with the normal attack, SoC, fiery, hand of rag proc, hand of justice proc and say SoC proccing another hand of justice proc which procs hand of rag which procs another SoC. Then in some patch they fixed it so you couldn't get more than one proc per swing and people thought that was done by a clear chain of things proccing in order and something can proc one and one thing only. So your swing would roll to proc SoC or not. If it rolled yes then SoC rolled to proc hand of rag proc. If SoC didn't proc your swing would roll for hand of rag proc. And so on. This worked for everything except things like hand of justice and sword spec which generated brand new swings able to proc anything in their own right (including chaining themselves). I don't think anybody thought of them putting internal cooldowns on things back then, but with the numerous TBC trinkets on long internal cooldowns it's become far more obvious.

EDIT: oh my, this is to bellator about internal cd on SoC.

And yeah obviously I understand that it doesn't count how many times it procced in a given minute, overall it's still 7 PPM, but I see the point with instants. But then again you could say the same things about armor penetration and how it doesn't scale well since this and that paladin damage ignores armor anyway.

 

zenos

I have, and I stand corrected, the replies after your post were made before I read it. So we can just agree its broken but not as broken as I thought.

 

zenos

Agreed, but my experience is that 70% of weapon damage unmitigated is roughly 100% weapon damage. Obviously this will vary according to the targets armor but it was useful for the intended purpose.

 

flyingtoastr

Well the nicest explanation for the "one proc per attack cycle" would be a short internal cooldown in the range of .5-1 second. The simplest (I use that term loosely) way to test it would be to simply activate SoC and run up to a mob (not attacking). CS him, which should also begin your autoswing timer. If it procs more than once we know SoC does not have an internal cooldown. Rinse and repeat.

Not quite. A normal armor boss with the usual debuffs is actually at around 26% reduction from armor. In addition White swings get two more percentage modifiers that SoC does not; two-handed weapon spec and Blood Frenzy.

The difference isn't huge, but generally white swings will do a bit more damage than SoC procs.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

bellator

Yeah that would be simplest way....but that means just 1 mob at a time ....with ret the way it is on beta...the funnest way is to pull 4 mobs and boom headshot with DS

 

Fiola

I'm not sure how two-handed weapon spec can affect your white swings but not SoC, but there's Armor Pen. instead.