WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion - Page 53

Eir · 07/25/08, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Aeverius

Um, Bog Lords/Giants/etc?

Stacking disease debuffs make them not particularly well-suited for AoE. :P

In any case, you can level fine as Prot, but I think all the posts boasting of Prot's awesome AoE potential greatly overstate it's abilities when it comes to leveling. The AoE abilities shine later when you're max level and need to farm for drops or rep.

tachycardia · 07/25/08, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Wowhead says for the spell effect: [Apply Aura]: Mod Debuff Resistance % to the three types, so I think it only includes debuffs.

if that is true, then yeah it's not that great.

Cathela · 07/26/08, 1:14 AM

Originally Posted by BFG

What I mean, I like paladin changes, and strength on tank gear is really great, however a pally in WotLK tank gear will have less SD than a pally in TBC pally gear, not more. Someone from Blizz said they haven't done threat balance yet, and I hope they won't repeat TBC scaling - paladin aggro excellent in Kara and weak in Sunwell.

Like Denogram, my experience progression-wise is exactly the opposite. I've really had very little trouble keeping ahead of our dps in threat generation.

In my standard screwing-around high-threat/AoE/etc gear I have 584 unbuffed spelldamage (this is with "paladin gear" as you put it in all eight major armor slots, as well as the spelldamage shield off BT trash) and 1670 stamina with just Fort/Mark/Kings (no food or imp). If the WotLK talents were to go live and all that spelldamage were to vanish at the same time, TbtL would give me 501 spelldamage in that gear. A loss to be sure, but not a big one. The extra threat from HotR/SoR plus the better threat scaling on seals/judgements (from AP) would push me quite a bit higher (which will of course be needed with the removal of Salv).

Can't say at this point whether that's going to be enough or not, but it seems like they're in the right ballpark.

Amera · 07/26/08, 3:04 AM

I've never really gotten the prot thing for leveling, either. It just requires mobs to be very situational. That being said, if I were going to do that, I'd do it as Holy. If you have T6 holy gear, it takes a ridiculous number of mobs to actually threaten you in any way, plus you have vastly more mana and regen than a prot paladin. And then you can burst casters with shocks very easily.

rozetta · 07/26/08, 3:37 AM

AOE mob grinding was good for pre-Outlands, but it's really situational, especially with the dailies. For only a few of the dailies it's good (like the one to find the Sunfury plans). For most of the dailies, ret is better. For Sunwell Isle, it's so bad, I stopped running those quests. Ever tried grinding for Primal Mana as prot? Or, for that matter, almost any primal. The fact is, the prot efficiency is just not there for a good 90% of mobs post-58, and I can't imagine that will change in Northrend (and this is why I'm asking). I also wanted to hear is prot's PvP viability has been affected at all (aside from the WSG flag running or tanking Vandarr).

Wilken · 07/26/08, 4:25 AM

From what I heard a lot of War/Druid/Pally tanking spells have been reworked as to allow for higher threat, and also DPS classes spells have been reworked to provide lower threat.

If the Dev's have done their homework, and I am sure at least one or two of them have, then until we start seeing the actual play of people doing dungeons with threatmeters you can read, or how gear is post lvl 77 you can not really say if it is enough spelldamage or not.

Based off of the comments that I and several prot pallies on my server have discussed, we might be getting Spellpower weapons to complement our stam->spellpower

Example you are starting the first 10 man in WoLTK and you have
2200 stamina raid buffed (quite a bit and just a guess)
thats 660 spellpower

Add on top of that a 350 spellpower mace(which in comparison to the Hyjal trash one I don't think is overestimating it)

you have 1010 spellpower

This is all just a guestimate, but with the addition of strength I would like to see how our tanking spells are affected by AP as well, and maybe they are, but no one has realesed any data on this, and maybe no one has significant strength gear at the moment to make conclusions on this, but it is a wait and see, and if Paladin's can't keep aggro vs warlock/Mage AOE similar to what guilds would do to hyjal trash groups then well the dev's will have to figure something out on the drawing board, and during beta Now is the time

Another problem is that I don't think the Omen/KTM mod authors have beta access, I am going to keep a eye out for the omen one on my server and maybe we can raise some awareness if they do not, as I think for their hard work with Omen a beta key is at least something they should have for their work as it is almost now the defacto Threat mod for most raids.

Prinsesa · 07/26/08, 4:58 AM

This is all just a guestimate, but with the addition of strength I would like to see how our tanking spells are affected by AP as well, and maybe they are, but no one has realesed any data on this

Have you read the thread?

SoR, SoV and their Judgements now have AP coefficients in addition to their SP coefficients.
Hammer of the Righteous scales with weapon damage, which scales with AP
The STR to block value ratio has been changed from 20:1 to 2:1, while Shield of Righteousness scales directly with block value.

chimtas · 07/26/08, 8:05 AM

Wonder if they would change the hand of salvation for prot tanks to get the aggro dumped from the one he used it on to him. That would make a nice boost for them in threat.

bellator · 07/26/08, 9:28 AM

Beta dps spreadsheet can be found here: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

More info about it in ret thread

Smurrf · 07/26/08, 10:17 AM

Now there's an idea...that'd probably have to be a talent, however. Perhaps make BoK baseline, and put that in its place? Even 50% of the threat lost by the target converted into +threat for the caster would be a great tool. It would also help tremendously in 5 mans, where mana concerns may still be an issue.

• frmorrison · 07/26/08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Smurrf

Now there's an idea...that'd probably have to be a talent, however. Perhaps make BoK baseline, and put that in its place? Even 50% of the threat lost by the target converted into +threat for the caster would be a great tool. It would also help tremendously in 5 mans, where mana concerns may still be an issue.

BoK is not becoming baseline, to limit the force multiplier that the blessing gives to a group.

Threat from Beta reports isn't as issue.

Cathela · 07/26/08, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

BoK is not becoming baseline, to limit the force multiplier that the blessing gives to a group.

How would making BoK baseline change anything, aside from removing the requirement that you have to have a paladin with 11 points in Prot?

Raid content is tuned assuming the presence of BoK; while that's not a big deal for 25-mans, it's going to cause issues if they want to create a tightly-tuned 10-man progression. If it's too powerful to make it baseline, it's too powerful to have as a shallow talent, and in that case they're probably better off just removing it altogether.

Plaisted · 07/27/08, 1:03 AM

"The seal does damage per second equal to 5% of Attack Power plus 10% of Spell Power. (Damage per swing scales with weapon speed, so dps is constant across weapon speeds.)"

So it is correct for all the new seals (single rank) that they have no base damage at all? IE a level 10 character with 200 AP using SoR would have a 10 DPS SoR?

Eir · 07/27/08, 1:05 AM

I'm really surprised they limited HotR to 1-handed melee weapons only. If they opened it up to 2-handers, that would give a nice boost right there for Prot soloing.

GSH · 07/27/08, 1:43 AM

Originally Posted by Plaisted

So it is correct for all the new seals (single rank) that they have no base damage at all? IE a level 10 character with 200 AP using SoR would have a 10 DPS SoR?

Correct. They seem to have replaced the base constant term with the AP term. This is most obvious with Seal of Vengeance. If you have 0 SP, SoV does the same damage with 1 debuff as with a full stack of 5.