It is going to be interesting to see where seal of command is going this expansion. Right now it seems like it will only see use on the PvP scene, and it will be interesting to see if Blizzard can find a way to make it a preferable PvE dps seal under certain circumstances.
Actually Zenos is right, and haste does decrease SoC dps.
Whilst it doesnt decrease SoC dps from white attacks since the lower proc rate of haste is countered by more white hits which keeps the number of procs equal.
What it does do is effect the SoC dps rate from procs such as CS and DS. The number of these attacks per minute is fixed regardless of haste. With haste decreasing the proc rate it also decreases the number of SoC Procs from these attacks and thus lowers the SoC dps.
As mentioned above haste lowere the proc %, so the proc rate off white hits is the same due to increased frequency, but the proc rate from SoC/DS will be lower since these attacks dont speed up with haste
Do we know how the proc rate for SoC off CS/DS is actually determined? I would assume that since these are instant, normalized attacks, that the proc rate is based off 2h normalized weapon speed and would be completely unaffected by haste. If this is the case, SoC damage would only be negatively effected by haste if the SoC proc damage were calculated of the hasted weapon speed rather than the vanilla weapon speed.
Just to lay out the full argument, you can break SoC-Ret damage up into a few categories:
1) Autoattack damage.
2) SoC procs from autoattacks.
3) Judgement damage.
4) Direct damage from CS and DS.
5) SoC procs from CS and DS.
At present, 1% haste increases (1) by 1%, has no effect at all on (2), (3), and (4), and for the sake of argument we'll assume it decreases (5) by 1%.
So what matters is how (1) compares to (5), and my contention is that (1) is always going to be substantially larger than (5).
Thank you. As a mental exercise imagine popping Divine Shield in time with an autoattack and a Divine Storm, then followed by a Crusader Strike.
0.0: Divine Shield/Auto-attack(84% chance to proc Command)
1.5: Divine Storm(84% chance to proc Command)
3.0: Crusader Strike(84% chance to proc Command)
3.6: (Should have had another auto-attack with a 42% chance to proc Command)
...
7.2: Auto-attack(84% chance to proc Command)
9.0: Crusader Strike(84% chance to proc Command)
10.8: (Should have had another auto-attack with a 42% chance to proc Command)
11.5: Divine Storm(84% chance to proc Command)
** There is a remainder reduction of swing speed that I'm not accounting for from 10.8 seconds to 12.
You miss two white swings and two 42% chances to proc Command. For arguments sake lets say that an 84% chance to proc command is equal to 2 chances of 42% to proc command.
You lose 2 white swings for certain. In the 12 second span you have 6 attempts to proc command at 84% and lose two chances to proc command at 42%, netting a theoretical 4 command procs over time. Given that a white swing and a command proc will be roughly equivalent, isn't this trade a win?
** Or am I missing something obvious.
**edit 2: I'm cheating as the first white swing is unaffected by the negative haste, I see my error. On the positive side, a properly timed bubble in pvp will result in a dps increase instead of a decrease.
Do we know how the proc rate for SoC off CS/DS is actually determined? I would assume that since these are instant, normalized attacks, that the proc rate is based off 2h normalized weapon speed and would be completely unaffected by haste. If this is the case, SoC damage would only be negatively effected by haste if the SoC proc damage were calculated of the hasted weapon speed rather than the vanilla weapon speed.
No one knows for sure, but as it is in live and beta, SoC % is based on hasted weapon speed. So on instants, it haste is detrimental... Someone should take that issue and bring it up on the beta forums.
Do we know how the proc rate for SoC off CS/DS is actually determined? I would assume that since these are instant, normalized attacks, that the proc rate is based off 2h normalized weapon speed and would be completely unaffected by haste. If this is the case, SoC damage would only be negatively effected by haste if the SoC proc damage were calculated of the hasted weapon speed rather than the vanilla weapon speed.
While I can agree it's worth testing, it's worth noting that the mechanics as we're assuming them to be are the PPM mechanics as used by other such effects by other classes. While the mechanics of Seal of Command, or of our class, could be different, it's currently the case for Rogues, Warriors, etc. that they get a chance on their instant attacks based on their auto-attack speed to proc instant attacks.
The normalization speed is only ever used currently for calculating the attack power benefit instant attacks affected by it get.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Do we know how the proc rate for SoC off CS/DS is actually determined? I would assume that since these are instant, normalized attacks, that the proc rate is based off 2h normalized weapon speed and would be completely unaffected by haste. If this is the case, SoC damage would only be negatively effected by haste if the SoC proc damage were calculated of the hasted weapon speed rather than the vanilla weapon speed.
I have never tested this personally. But somewhere in the monster that is the Retribution DPS thread it was tested and found to proc from post-haste weapon speed.
yes cleanse/equivalent spells had a 30 yards range for all healers and you actually had to move to do it.
the problem is now only paladins from all healers have to stick on 30 yards range. and doesn't make much sense.
shorter range often means more movement. movement means less healing. and it's not like we aren't comfortably placed on last spots on most fights' healing meters.
for me it seems like a random discrimination with no logical reason behind it.
edit: added some more
That doesn't hold true in fights where magic dispelling is required.
Remember, Dispel Magic is still 30 yards, not having benefitted from the 10 range increase that Cleanse/Remove Curse and their ilk got (I'm guessing because Dispel Magic has an offensive component as well).
So on dispelling fights, priests will be at 30 yards with you. Shadow priests have to sit at 24 yards and have adapted to that. Maybe the developers' intent is that as paladins, we should be a bit closer to the action than the clothies.
I don't actually think the movement will be a big issue. With a 6 second cooldown on Holy Shock, you can always use that and a Hand spell or Sacred Shield while moving. We don't know the mechanics of the boss fights yet, so maybe you might end up only wanting or needing the extra haste during mini-enrages or other mechanics like that.
So on dispelling fights, priests will be at 30 yards with you. Shadow priests have to sit at 24 yards and have adapted to that. Maybe the developers' intent is that as paladins, we should be a bit closer to the action than the clothies.
Neither of those will hold true in Wrath of the Lich King any more actually. Mind Flay got increased to a 30 yard range. Dispel Magic, along with other spells that can target both friendly and hostile targets like Holy Shock, now has different range depending on whether you are using it on a friendly or hostile target. It has 40 yard range now on friendly targets, remaining at 30 yards for hostile targets.
And while I'm repeating myself, I think it bears repeating that a Holy Paladin needs to be within 40 yards of a friendly target to heal, and within 30 yards of a hostile target to keep up a Judgement and with it the Judgement of the Pure effect. In practice this means that you will not always have to move 10 yards closer than you were standing before. Whether or not you have to move closer than your current position depends on which side of the boss you are standing on, and how large the boss is. If you're standing in front of a boss at maximum healing range from the tank you'll actually have to move a bit closer than 10 yards as you're standing over 40 yards away from the boss at that point; if you're standing behind a sufficiently large boss however, you can be at the maximum range for healing your tank while at the same time standing within 30 yards of the boss.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
This spec stops at divine illumination and 1/2 enlightened judgement, while picking up blessing of the wise from retribution. The idea would be to judge whenever you can spare a GCD to return mana to the raid. The benefit from the spec is that apart from being a solid healer, it would bring top-notch raid utility, covering everything that a retribution paladin would bring execpt for 3% haste and healing from divine storm. If such a spec is viable, this would eliminate the need for a retribution paladin in the expansion.
I apologize in advance if I screwed up on some talents as my paladin alt is prot not holy, but the idea is for 3/3 Judgement of the Wise, and optimize the rest of the talent points.
I would actually target a slighty different build, although following the same general concept. The idea is that it's a supremely powerful soloing spec, but it also brings strong healing and a good chunk of Retribution utility, with the possibility of decent DPS if some encounter requires fast burns and little healing. Obviously, you wouldn't be topping the meters on either damage or healing with a spec like this, but you could probably perform well enough in either role (probably in the same gear, no less) to avoid being the odd man out and getting benched (as a healer) because the next boss is a DPS check, or vice-versa.
Now, running something like this requires some help from the rest of your raid group. First, you need a traditional BoL/Prot paladin running improved Concentration aura, since this build was obligated to drop one point out of Spiritual Focus to pick up Divine Illumination. Second, your raid should not be bringing a full Ret pally, since the two of you will likely step on each other's toes; in this case, you will probably be relegated to spam/sheath healing. Finally, your raid will have to be OK with you standing on the front lines; some people will have a problem with this. Even when purely healing, you need to be close to the tank and the melee to give them Ret aura and get their AP buffs, as well as getting off the odd auto-attack to stack up Vengeance/Corruption (for the more powerful Judgement).
Last edited by Antmanton : 08/01/08 at 6:51 PM.
Reason: I am an idiot, linked the wrong build
I would actually target a slighty different build, although following the same general concept. The idea is that it's a supremely powerful soloing spec, but it also brings strong healing and a good chunk of Retribution utility, with the possibility of decent DPS if some encounter requires fast burns and little healing. Obviously, you wouldn't be topping the meters on either damage or healing with a spec like this, but you could probably perform well enough in either role (probably in the same gear, no less) to avoid being the odd man out and getting benched (as a healer) because the next boss is a DPS check, or vice-versa.
Now, running something like this requires some help from the rest of your raid group. First, you need a traditional BoL/Prot paladin running improved Concentration aura, since this build was obligated to drop one point out of Spiritual Focus to pick up Divine Illumination. Second, your raid should not be bringing a full Ret pally, since the two of you will likely step on each other's toes; in this case, you will probably be relegated to spam/sheath healing. Finally, your raid will have to be OK with you standing on the front lines; some people will have a problem with this. Even when purely healing, you need to be close to the tank and the melee to give them Ret aura and get their AP buffs, as well as getting off the odd auto-attack to stack up Vengeance/Corruption (for the more powerful Judgement).
I'm very uncertain about that play style, given the sharp increase to healing spell costs. Prot and ret abilities don't have anywhere near the potential expenditure that healing involves, so Judgments of the Wise is very powerful for them.
But with more limited offense stacking heavy spellpower, I don't know if judgments will yield enough DPS to maintain your mana pool. That build banks its entire advantage to being able to produce large amounts of mana so that while less powerful in healing, can use heals more liberally (and wastefully).
Seems a bit fragile in PvP too, with the lack of defensive buffs.
While I can agree it's worth testing, it's worth noting that the mechanics as we're assuming them to be are the PPM mechanics as used by other such effects by other classes. While the mechanics of Seal of Command, or of our class, could be different, it's currently the case for Rogues, Warriors, etc. that they get a chance on their instant attacks based on their auto-attack speed to proc instant attacks.
The normalization speed is only ever used currently for calculating the attack power benefit instant attacks affected by it get.
Thanks Chicken. I just didn't know what the assumption was.
On another note, does haste reduce our GCD just as it does for casters (since haste is now a unified stat)?
Ret needs Repentance more than paladins in general need it. There's a very strong prejudice in heroic group composition towards dps classes that can also CC. While many people take this further than they should, it's still true that all other things being roughly equal, a dps class that can CC is going to be more use in a heroic than a dps class that can't. Healers and tanks generally aren't expected to provide CC to justify their slot. With the PvE duration change to Repentance, Ret will have a much easier time getting into heroics. (I bitched and moaned for a long time when they moved Repentance from 31-Prot to 31-Ret, but I have to admit it's worked out pretty well in the long run.)
I don't disagree with your reasoning, but non-renewable CC will always be a last resort. I think in practice, this will not greatly impact the number or ret paladins hitting five mans.
Regardless - are we really at the point where when we try to sell ourselves to a five man that we hope repentance is the deciding factor? Sad, sad days.
I don't disagree with your reasoning, but non-renewable CC will always be a last resort. I think in practice, this will not greatly impact the number or ret paladins hitting five mans.
Regardless - are we really at the point where when we try to sell ourselves to a five man that we hope repentance is the deciding factor? Sad, sad days.
Either that, or give AW a cooldown of 1 min so a group can obliterate one mob in one HoJ. :P
Fact is that most people (even ones in my guild) will require that at least one person has a strong CC in a heroic 5 or 10 man raid. Back when heroics were new, people running in blues, they were almost impossible without CC. Warrior tanks in particular are not fond of tanking for a CC-less group, no matter the DPS output.
It's just more challenge for no benefit. Even tanking on my paladin, I still need CC from time to time.
I don't disagree with your reasoning, but non-renewable CC will always be a last resort. I think in practice, this will not greatly impact the number or ret paladins hitting five mans.
Regardless - are we really at the point where when we try to sell ourselves to a five man that we hope repentance is the deciding factor? Sad, sad days.
That would be right if you were talking about rogues - Sap certainly is non-renewable (after the actual pull) but still rogues are considered as a CC-class. Nothing else than the cooldown on repentance (same as the duration of the effect) prevents us from renewing it.
I see ret future in 5-mans a bit brighter. Remember that we have always one pure utility judgement up (light or wisdom) instead of the old JotC. When they fix Judgements of the Wise to include other party members too, mana gained from it is nontrivial. We have now 2 working AoEs thanks to Sheat of Light spell power conversion - ret using Consecration is not LOL anymore. The same Sheat of Light allows us to realistically throw one or two pretty ok Holy Lights in true emergenciest too. (My Holy Lights in ret gear crits well over 6k at lvl70 in beta though I have kinda pimped gear)
Add to that the 1 min repent in PvE which works on everything and opposed to sap it is ranged and combat castable. I was running a few instances yesterday on beta and it should really propel us up the ladder of desirability when you want DPS with "CC" in your 5 man.
Just did 20-mins testing, probably about 50 White+CS hits at same time, and never got SoC to proc at same time. With 3.6 weason speed, should be a 17% chance of a double SoC, so looks like there could be an internal cooldown. Will try some 4man Divine Storm hits over weekend to see if that can proc on multiple mobs.
As of this last patch, the major JoJ bug has been fixed. Refreshing the debuff with each melee hit no longer deals JoJ damage; however, the initial Judgement of Justice cast does still deal the JoJ damage--equal to the damage that Judging with SoW/SoL would do--in addition to the damage from unleashing your seal.
It seems odd that they would have fixed half of the JoJ bug but not the other. Perhaps this was not an oversight and they did intend to keep this in, providing somewhat close to double damage for the premier PvP Judgement?
It seems odd that they would have fixed half of the JoJ bug but not the other. Perhaps this was not an oversight and they did intend to keep this in, providing somewhat close to double damage for the premier PvP Judgement?
It would be nice if they'd let us know for sure. The original notes mentioned only standard damage from JoJ. Unless it receives some sort of extra damage bonus from AP+SD? Either way, I'd love to know what their plan is. I'm glad they fixed the refresh bug, although I'd be even happier if they'd just decided to leave it in and say it was planned to be like that all along =p
That would be right if you were talking about rogues - Sap certainly is non-renewable (after the actual pull) but still rogues are considered as a CC-class. Nothing else than the cooldown on repentance (same as the duration of the effect) prevents us from renewing it.
I see ret future in 5-mans a bit brighter. Remember that we have always one pure utility judgement up (light or wisdom) instead of the old JotC. When they fix Judgements of the Wise to include other party members too, mana gained from it is nontrivial. We have now 2 working AoEs thanks to Sheat of Light spell power conversion - ret using Consecration is not LOL anymore. The same Sheat of Light allows us to realistically throw one or two pretty ok Holy Lights in true emergenciest too. (My Holy Lights in ret gear crits well over 6k at lvl70 in beta though I have kinda pimped gear)
I agree with all of this. Though, in my experience rogues are taken for cc slots as a last resort. We used them, even in Sunwell, but used mages when we could. But sap is very similar to what we're going to be dealing with, with advantage to us because it's safer to apply and we can do it after combat begins. I like the changes to repentance a lot.
The original point was that Repentance doesn't feel like a spec defining ability to me. Someone else countered that they felt it should not be baseline as a means of getting us into more five mans.
All I'm disagreeing with is the reasoning that Ret needs this ability more than other specs so much that by making it baseline our 5 man chances are hurt.
That is what I disagree with. I think Ret stands enough on its own that, even if repentance were baseline, we give any other class a run for it's money in a 5 man dps slot.
All I'm disagreeing with is the reasoning that Ret needs this ability more than other specs so much that by making it baseline our 5 man chances are hurt.
The flip side of this is that if Repentance was baseline, we'd be the only healer or tank class with really good CC. Priests and druids have CC, but their's is limited to one creature type (which is relatively rare, at that). I can see the argument that the current beta Repentence is unbalancing in the hands of a healer or tank.
Ret is the only spec which needs CC. The other two will still get dungeon invites fine without it.
The flip side of this is that if Repentance was baseline, we'd be the only healer or tank class with really good CC. Priests and druids have CC, but their's is limited to one creature type (which is relatively rare, at that). I can see the argument that the current beta Repentence is unbalancing in the hands of a healer or tank.
Ret is the only spec which needs CC. The other two will still get dungeon invites fine without it.
Not sure how rare undead are going to be in Northrend. Also, priests have mind control and fear in a pinch. Both fairly niche abilities, but they have value. That said, I'm afraid I just don't agree that priests are going to be hurting for a spot because of Repentance.
Druids have roots, a sleep, and cyclone - most of which they can use while full - time healing. I know that cyclone is on DR, but again, I just don't see druids hurting for 5 man slots on healing because of paladins having repentance.
A 5 sec stun and an incapacitate on a minute cooldown just don't feel that game breaking to me.
But hell, I've been wrong lots of times. Maybe my perspective is just off.
Neither of those will hold true in Wrath of the Lich King any more actually. Mind Flay got increased to a 30 yard range. Dispel Magic, along with other spells that can target both friendly and hostile targets like Holy Shock, now has different range depending on whether you are using it on a friendly or hostile target. It has 40 yard range now on friendly targets, remaining at 30 yards for hostile targets.
Slightly O/T: Last I checked, Mind Flay was still 24 yards. It was 30 yards for 1 build though, and apparently got reverted. Can someone provide a definitive answer?
I was aware of the Holy Shock change, but wasn't aware all similar mechanics (Dispel Magic, Penance) were going to work that way. That's excellent news. I sometimes suspect that the changes to holy to allow a benefit on judgement was to try and force them out of the back row.
Slightly O/T: Last I checked, Mind Flay was still 24 yards. It was 30 yards for 1 build though, and apparently got reverted. Can someone provide a definitive answer?
You're correct on that account, I hadn't noticed it was changed back to 20 yards untalented.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
The flip side of this is that if Repentance was baseline, we'd be the only healer or tank class with really good CC. Priests and druids have CC, but their's is limited to one creature type (which is relatively rare, at that).
08/01/08, 6:24 PM
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