hmm, just thought about the thing that with auras now affecting all raid, there's a fair chance a retribution paladin would want aura mastery. so we actually might end up with a spec like this:
Everyone is still stuck in this mindset of "ret is here for utility". Look at the new talents. Ret isn't about heavy utility anymore, it's about decent utility with very good DPS.
Very good DPS? How can you possibly know how ret and other classes DPS will look like with dungeon / raid gear at 80?
Reminds me of pre-TBC alot, we got CS and everyone was like 'ret is now perfect and does a ton of dps, raid invite pls'..and we all know how it turned out eh?
Very good DPS? How can you possibly know how ret and other classes DPS will look like with dungeon / raid gear at 80?
Reminds me of pre-TBC a lot, we got CS and everyone was like 'ret is now perfect and does a ton of dps, raid invite pls'..and we all know how it turned out eh?
We do! You get a raidspot whenever you are online for a raid
But pre-tbc, a ret paladin did not really belong in a raid. When tbc came out, there wasn't a pool of ret paladins who had the gear and the skill to raid, it all had to be learned. It is the same with protection paladins - not many paladins played one before in raids, so when they were viable, all the skilled paladins were holy and did not really have ret and prot gear. Even beside the fact that t3 wasn't so good for prot/ret, but very good for holy.
But all these chances for ret paladins make me happy for them, and the moving away to attack power on most abilities is fine for them, you will want at least one ret paladin in your raids, and you can even bring two. The ret paladin will usually have a prot paladin next to him, as they are being accepted as main tanks now more often, especially by felmyst and m'uru. Raidleaders can now see the potential of them and will try to keep one prot paladin (or a holy/ret with exceptional prot gear). So in WotLK i expect raids to have at least one protection paladin and one retribution paladin.
[rant]
Now my worries: I'm afraid the holy paladin will die out completely.
Why do you bring a holy paladin to raids nowadays? Lets say for example Felmyst and M'uru, where you already have a protection and a retribution paladin in the raid
- Third Blessing (kings, so the other two don't have to gimp their spec)
- Third Judgement (light)
In terms of healing; well, a druid or priest should be able to run circles around a holy paladin and still beat him on the healing meter, a shaman just makes a nice circle of totems around the paladin and grins maniacally while he chainheals. Even shadowpriests get very close to the paladins effective healing done.
Now fast forward to WoTLK, the third blessing is no longer needed, and if we are in the raid, we are forced to use Judgement of Justice so we do not overwrite the more powerful JoL and JoW from the Protection and Retribution paladin. That isn't so bad, but if we look at the fights in tbc, we are generally not hitting the boss, so we will not get mana and healing from our class defining ability. No.. we stand there and we heal, we probably get a nice mana pool and one evocation to fill half of that every 5 minutes.
So lets look at how fast i can empty my mana pool in The burning Crusade. I have ~14k raidbuffed / 840 mana/heal = 16.67 holy light casts. If i extrapolate that to WotLK: 16.67 casts x 1880 mana/heal = 31k mana. So i expect to havet around 31k mana so i'm able to keep my current healing power. However, i do not think we will get a mana pool that big, my guess, based on what i've seen, is that around 20k-25k is much more likely. So we most likely have to cut back our healing even more, or use only use FoL with a spare HL every minute like in the start of tbc.
Than we get to the solo capabilities of a holy paladin. If you look at out baseline abilites, every single one will scale batter with attack power than spell power, so the most logical thing to do is collect two sets of gear (again) and have one for healing, and the other one for solo grinding / quests. In TBC i can use my healing gear with relatively few changes quite alright as solo gear. With increased damage on consecration, SoR/JoR/SoV/JoV, exorcism/holy wrath i would be able to grind mobs at huge mana costs, and they would die slowly, but they would eventually die.
In wotlk there is no spell left that does not scale better with attack power than with spell power at the moment. Especially if you take into account ShoL which even boosts our abilities that scale with both quite a bit. So, our full epic healing end-game raidingset can go back in the bank when we go out for a stroll, cause that green/blue set we picked up while leveling will increase our damage by a lot more than our healing gear.
TLDR: As it stands now, with the current talents/abilities, there won't be many holy paladins at level 80, and with no raid utility other than an aura (concentration, lol) and a judgement (justice, lol) we will only bring a class that has sub-par healing and is out of mana quickly on healing intensive fights.
[/rant]
Anyway, prot-spec, here i come for wotlk if nothing changes.
I honestly think it might be about time for Holy to take a step back. It took a good year into TBC before people generally accepted prot paladins as good tanks*. Although it's the norm nowadays to want a prot paladin, at least for heroics and certain niche encounters, it all comes back to perception. People only remembered Paladins as healers and since people were super-reluctant to try out any other spec of a paladin ("what a waste, why don't you spec holy and be useful?"), it took a long long time for the other specs to become accepted. One might rightfully argue that ret paladins are still seen by a majority of players as useless, contrary to what we here know (I've seen recently "lolret" comments myself in trade and general, so no, the stigma has far from gone away.)
Remember, from the beginning of the raiding scene in this game, paladins have been pigeon-holed into the healing role. A good three years being in one role, it tends to stick in peoples' heads.
Thinking about the big picture, there are many people not fortunate enough to be able to do without pickup groups, not fortunate enough to get into high-end raiding or just stuck on a plain-old bad server. Those people aren't going to see enjoyment out of a game where they're not accepted or even ridiculed for playing a spec they enjoy (and most likely subsequently quit). The only way people's perception about non-holy paladins will ever change is if the other specs are buffed enough and holy takes the sidelines for a while.
I'm sure Blizzard is well aware that those players who rolled a paladin specifically to heal will find it, at most, a mild inconvenience to reroll some other healing class, especially with their changes to the levelling during TBC. People who are all about min-maxing their raid's healing would do so anyway, so it's not even an issue.
I've played all specs of this class and can't really say which one I've preferred - they all feel different enough and all have their pros and cons. However, I do believe that for the good of the class, it might be a change for the better for us to not be viewed by most as simply healers, at least for long enough for our other specs to become widely accepted by the majority of players.
* I tanked all content for my guild for the whole of TBC. Last summer, after having tanked heroics and kara, we had a dry spell and I played with another raid guild for 3 weeks in which they refused to let me do anything but heal regardless of what we were doing. I was easily geared and experienced enough to tank for them, but they just wouldn't accept it or even let me show them.
I personally can´t understand the reason most paladins see the future of the holy paladin so dark. I´m quite sure Blizzard is aware of the ShoL issue (meaning that a x/0/23 specc will be far superior to a deep holy specc) and is trying to adjust the power and utility of BoL. Looking at holy now, we gained an instant HL after a guaranteed crit every 2 minutes which is, along with the buffed holy shock in itself, a quite powerful single target emergency button. On top of that we gain a 20(or 16) minute LoH CD. We may stay the weakest in terms of AoE healing, true enough, but every class is a master in some kind of aspect they are doing. Warrior´s too are given shockwave to compensate for their lack AoE-threat management. That won´t make them superior to a prot paladin and actually it really does not have to make them the best AoE tanks. Same for Beacon of Light: It´s just a tool to compensate our weakness, not to make us kings of alle trades.
Regarding the high mana costs, here´s a blue post ( WoW Forums -> Mind Sear Evaluation ) stating that, despite the ongoing worries about mana problems with level 80 (through much increased spell costs), the developers assured the mana pool will be big enough in regards to spell costs.
To specifically address your main worries, Aenae:
Why is a 3rd blessing no longer needed? Rogues may only want BoM and BoK, but looking at the many hybrid classes BoM+BoW+BoK surely will be desired.
I do not think it is fair to have a raid requiring 3 pallys, each of every specc. I do believe hoewever that a raid needs at least 2 pallys and they do not have to bee retri/prot by default. If the DK´s and Warriors can manage AoE pulls good enough, you have a good reason to leave out a prot paladin and get a holy paladin to do it´s job (that is: buff the most important blessings) along with a retribution paladin for example.
Healers are always on demand and although I´m sure that the top notch raiding guilds will again fall back to min/max every slot in a given 25-man encounter, less stricter guilds will have more choices of filling their spots with good players and good classes instead of having to fill them with needed classes and sometimes players hardly like :-)
The prospect of the improved 10-man game promised in WotLK, where I can fill those 10 spots however I want instead of needing at a fixed composition of 5 speccs, certainly sounds good.
On a side note, I´m pretty sure that it doesn´t matter which paladin judges Wisdom/Light/Justice, because the strength of the procc effect will surely depend on the attackers strength, not on the strength of the judging paladin.
Also SoR and SoV are high candidates for a buff to their spell power coefficients in my opinion, since they are "talentable" in the holy tree, so spell power will probably play a bigger role in terms of DPS for a holy paladin.
Last edited by Lockdown : 08/04/08 at 11:34 AM.
Reason: addded link to blue post
Has anyone confirmed whether "Heart of the Crusader" effects stack with different paladins? Can a raid get 9% crit from having JoJ, JoL, JoW up? I guess it would be really hard to test, but it seems relevant to the "how many paladins to bring" question.
I wouldn't worry about Holy dying out. I recall how players complained that in TBC, Holy paladins wouldn't be wanted due to how priests/druids/shaman were on par/more versatile/better. Then early TBC raiding hit, and many many guilds stacked Holy paladins for their healer core. Heh.
In the worst case where Holy is under-par, it won't be as limiting as for a DPS class. Healers are not (and can't be) judged by a DPS meter, theoretical or actual. In terms of tools, Holy (and the class) gained quite a few. In terms of general player perspective, both paladin and non-paladin players "know" Holy is a useful healer spec. Contrast that to early WoW, where paladins had very effective healing tools, yet were not considered healers by most.
Aenae, at the start of TBC we were so powerfull that minimaxing guilds run with 1 priest and 3-4 holy paladins. And while we were nerfed and priests buffed it wasn't the reason why paladins don't shine in T6+ (but even there palas could top healingmeters). Encounter design has much more to do with it. And till we see encounters at lvl 80, there is nothing to complain about. Imagine the encounter where there is absolutely no AoE damage and only single tank - priests and shamans will fall down and druid running in circles around paladin would by beaten in healing by that paladin easily. I guess by balancing raiding encounter around different healer classes it is completely doable to make paladins as desired in the instance as any other class.
Remember, paladin ISN'T subpar healer per se. You just could not heal more than your assignement is hitted for. Priests and shamans top healingmeters in AoE-centered fights not because they are so imba, but because there is a lot of damage on raid to be healed and that damage outweight tank damage. We are and will be very good spot healers.
Actually, in what fight paladin MT healer could be replaced by other healer with increase of effectiveness (leaving buffs aside)? Take your examples. Felmyst - due to spiritual attunement paladins are only healers with virtually unlimited mana without any additional support. Put shammy or priest in MT group instead of pala and tell him to heal MT. And you will see, that they will be less efficient in that role. M'uru - from my own experience paladins are really good for P2 MT healing. Especially closer to the end of the fight. No other healer could spam his biggest rank heal that long due to high crit and big SA mana returns.
On a side note, I´m pretty sure that it doesn´t matter which paladin judges Wisdom/Light/Justice, because the strength of the procc effect will surely depend on the attackers strength, not on the strength of the judging paladin.
It's already been confirmed that the proc strength depends on the paladin's stats.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
It's already been confirmed that the proc strength depends on the paladin's stats.
Oh well, I missed that part. Actually that´s quite a nice buff for retribution paladins, but a bummer for holys and prots depending on which stats exactly make them scale better, AP or spellpower.
It would be a good thing if we they would keep the Judgement spell without any actual Judgement attached to it in order to circumvent problems of that kind.
On a side note, I´m pretty sure that it doesn´t matter which paladin judges Wisdom/Light/Justice, because the strength of the procc effect will surely depend on the attackers strength, not on the strength of the judging paladin.
How can you say that ? Beta test made by Bellator (if I recall properly) proved otherwise : the judgement procs are based on the judging paladin. I bet everyone would be mostly interested if you had data that confirmed the contrary
edit : beaten twice, and by far :/ I blame lousy proxy cache
Originally Posted by Lockdown
Also SoR and SoV are high candidates for a buff to their spell power coefficients in my opinion, since they are "talentable" in the holy tree, so spell power will probably play a bigger role in terms of DPS for a holy paladin.
Seals need some serious tuning that's for sure. But I really don't see any boost in SP coefficient for SoR and SoV because they currently outdamage SoC and SoB for Rets (except with Weapon damage / AP ratio that strongly favours weapon damage, which I don't think would be wise due to the itemisation issues it would raise)
Besides, don't forget that a 6 second holy shock is quite a big dps boost for holy pals
Very good DPS? How can you possibly know how ret and other classes DPS will look like with dungeon / raid gear at 80?
Reminds me of pre-TBC alot, we got CS and everyone was like 'ret is now perfect and does a ton of dps, raid invite pls'..and we all know how it turned out eh?
Do I know how it will be? No. But look at some of what other classes are getting compared to us. Ret pallys got a ton of additional DPS and utility tools while rogues only got PvP talents. Look at how horrid the new mage fire tree is.
Sure, it's not an assured "ret pallys have good DPS" but we can do prelim theorycraft and see that ret pallys are in fact putting out very nice numbers while other classes that are the current powerhouses are getting marginal buffs.
Originally Posted by Fiola
How much can we expect the proc strength to differ, based on the gear preferred by said spec?
20%? 30%? With current gear, I'd expect Ret > Holy > Prot, but by how much?
Well a fully raid buffed Holy Pally should have about 1.5-2k Attack Power and maybe 1200-1500 Spell Power in Tier 6. A ret pally on the other hand will have 3.5-4k Attack Power and (from sheath) 1000-1200 spell power. From that you're looking at at least 30% better returns from a ret pally.
Prot pallys I'm not too sure of. We don't know how much of their gear (if any) will be itemized with spell power versus strength and have no way to compare it to now. I would guess a prot pally would be less than both a Holy and Ret though as their Spell Power conversion is much weaker.
Last edited by flyingtoastr : 08/04/08 at 1:11 PM.
Well a fully raid buffed Holy Pally should have about 1.5-2k Attack Power and maybe 1200-1500 Spell Power in Tier 6. A ret pally on the other hand will have 3.5-4k Attack Power and (from sheath) 1000-1200 spell power. From that you're looking at at least 30% better returns from a ret pally.
Prot pallys I'm not too sure of. We don't know how much of their gear (if any) will be itemized with spell power versus strength and have no way to compare it to now. I would guess a prot pally would be less than both a Holy and Ret though as their Spell Power conversion is much weaker.
In t6 a holy paladin at lvl 70 in WoTLK will have a around 1400 spelldamage, and with shouts/blessings, i do not think he wil go above 1500 AP (and even that is a high guess, i think ~1000 is even more realistic). The 3.5-4.0k Attackpower with Sheol for 1000-1200 is quite realistic. With those numbers you can do the math; x% of 3.5+1k - 4.0-1.2k = x% of 4.5k - 5.2k, if you take the 9% i read in the OP, you will see a mana return of ~405 - 470 per proc.
The holy paladin with 1k-1.5k AP and 1.4-1.6k spellpower will see around 9% x 2.4k - 3.1k or 216 - 279 mana per proc. So the difference (with the values found in the OP) will be more around 40%-50% (at level 70, with TBC gear)
In t6 a holy paladin at lvl 70 in WoTLK will have a around 1400 spelldamage, and with shouts/blessings, i do not think he wil go above 1500 AP (and even that is a high guess, i think ~1000 is even more realistic). The 3.5-4.0k Attackpower with Sheol for 1000-1200 is quite realistic. With those numbers you can do the math; x% of 3.5+1k - 4.0-1.2k = x% of 4.5k - 5.2k, if you take the 9% i read in the OP, you will see a mana return of ~405 - 470 per proc.
The holy paladin with 1k-1.5k AP and 1.4-1.6k spellpower will see around 9% x 2.4k - 3.1k or 216 - 279 mana per proc. So the difference (with the values found in the OP) will be more around 40%-50% (at level 70, with TBC gear)
I have a little more than 400 AP baseline right now. With Improved Might (382 AP), Improved Battle Shout (381 AP), Improved Gift of the Wild (39 AP), and standing close enough to an Enhancement Shaman to get both Improved Strength of Earth (198 AP) and Unleashed Rage (+10% more AP) I'd be looking at a total of 1540 AP.
So yeah, it requires you to move a bit but 1500 AP isn't unreachable for a holy pally.
I pretty convinced that Blizzard regards ShoL as kind of broken in terms of increasing the healing power of a holy paladin. It will probably go further down the retri tree. It just feels wrong to gather up BoM, BattleShout, SotE etc to enhance your healing power by far greater values as WoA ever could.
Do I know how it will be? No. But look at some of what other classes are getting compared to us. Ret pallys got a ton of additional DPS and utility tools while rogues only got PvP talents. Look at how horrid the new mage fire tree is.
Sure, it's not an assured "ret pallys have good DPS" but we can do prelim theorycraft and see that ret pallys are in fact putting out very nice numbers while other classes that are the current powerhouses are getting marginal buffs.
Well, old equation of balansing dps versus utility must still hold in Wrath, and I don't see nothing CoD-esque in the tree to do the tradeoff. And while new mage fire tree is horrid, Elementalist FFB and Arcane shape up quite nicely. Locks see imporvements all around, etc. It looks to me like from current three-tier system in terms of prsonal DPS we'll move to two-tier system where utility specs such as Elemental Shaman, Shadow Priest and Retribution Paladin will be equalized across the board, to be below 'pure' dps specs.
While I can understand your optimism about paladins' future, I (and some others here, apparently) see things in more pessimstic light. Our utility is based on 6 (!) points (HoC, Sanct, JoWise, CS Refresh, Swit Ret, DS healing). Holy is ready to grab HoC and Sanct, and I still see no news on Swift Ret stacking with WF totem. CS refresh can be dismissed as mostly useless, DS healing is situational, that leaves us with JoWise as major strong point - but we are going to be balanced with full set in mind. That just does not leave much in terms of personal damage.
By the way, since we mentioned other classes' buffs - allow me to bring in the spotlight Improved Disarm, disarming weapon-wielding bosses for 10 seconds out of every 45, and making said bosses take 10% more damage for the duration of disarm. It is nice to see that you don't have to have a Prot Specced Warrior for this new kind of utility around. Oh, wait...
I pretty convinced that Blizzard regards ShoL as kind of broken in terms of increasing the healing power of a holy paladin. It will probably go further down the retri tree. It just feels wrong to gather up BoM, BattleShout, SotE etc to enhance your healing power by far greater values as WoA ever could.
Oh, I agree on this point. Same thing is currently going on with Shaman Elemental spec (MD/MQ branching), and I expect both of them to be solved at the same time, most probably by moving offending talents further down the tree or strongly buffing Holy/Elem 46&51-pointers. Hopefully boff, but I won't hold my breath.
Well, old equation of balansing dps versus utility must still hold in Wrath, and I don't see nothing CoD-esque in the tree to do the tradeoff. And while new mage fire tree is horrid, Elementalist FFB and Arcane shape up quite nicely. Locks see imporvements all around, etc. It looks to me like from current three-tier system in terms of prsonal DPS we'll move to two-tier system where utility specs such as Elemental Shaman, Shadow Priest and Retribution Paladin will be equalized across the board, to be below 'pure' dps specs.
While I can understand your optimism about paladins' future, I (and some others here, apparently) see things in more pessimstic light. Our utility is based on 6 (!) points (HoC, Sanct, JoWise, CS Refresh, Swit Ret, DS healing). Holy is ready to grab HoC and Sanct, and I still see no news on Swift Ret stacking with WF totem. CS refresh can be dismissed as mostly useless, DS healing is situational, that leaves us with JoWise as major strong point - but we are going to be balanced with full set in mind. That just does not leave much in terms of personal damage.
All haste buffs are stacking, so yes Swift Retribution is a godly addition to our utility repitore. JoW ticing for >30% harder than any other spec alone justifies a ret's raid spot, combined with the heavy regen from JotW we could easily be considered a nice mana battery (and look at the current mana battery and how much everyone loves them regardless of shittastic DPS). I will repeat myself again in regards to CS, it isn't as flashy as now but it still preforms an important role.
Take a look at Divine Storm alone. It deals holy damage equal to weapon damage. That means it's an instant weapon attack that pierces armor and procs your seal. We once had a very similar ability that did enough damage that people considered paladins to be the penultimate DPS class. Look at some of the other new talents. Sanctified Wrath. Sheath of Light. Righteous Vengeance. Massive AP scaling for Exorcism, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath and Holy Wrath. They want ret pallys doing a lot more damage.
And as was stated by a Blue, they're working on making BoL a powerful part of the holy toolkit, meaning those holy pallys might not be able to steal your utility. Sorry to burst your bubble bro.
Originally Posted by Ellerain
By the way, since we mentioned other classes' buffs - allow me to bring in the spotlight Improved Disarm, disarming weapon-wielding bosses for 10 seconds out of every 45, and making said bosses take 10% more damage for the duration of disarm. It is nice to see that you don't have to have a Prot Specced Warrior for this new kind of utility around. Oh, wait...
Going through all of the TBC raid encounters I can think of only one (Atunemen) that is disarmable, and most of the time people only do that because he has a funny emote when you do it. I may be wrong, but I'm nearly positive Improved Disarm (and Safeguard) are meant to be "PvP" abilities. I'm not sure why on earth you would PvP as a prot warrior, but there you go.
Prot pallys I'm not too sure of. We don't know how much of their gear (if any) will be itemized with spell power versus strength and have no way to compare it to now. I would guess a prot pally would be less than both a Holy and Ret though as their Spell Power conversion is much weaker
I'm not sure on that fly, for prot pallies..
I'd expect to see prot at 2-2.5k AP+. Don't forget, they get all the melee buffs, without having to worry about range/healing.
While thier conversion may not be as nice, if you don't pick up HotR you can get Sheath as prot. It'll depend how good HotR is for tanking compared to ~300-600 SP, but.. I don't know if it's good enough. With Consecrate scaling with AP&SP, it'll be a great way to go for trash/add tanking. Or even MTing.
Given that there are more than just warriors to apply the 20% slower attack debuff, coupled with the bonuses you get from ret (2% more damage to raid, 50% better ret aura, 3%? chance to resist spells, 3% more damage), I expect a few people will be trying it out, to see how threat is.
edit:
Just as an example:
10str -> 10*1.15*1.10 = 25.3AP *1.10 = 27.83*.3 = 8.349 SP.
10stam ->10*1.06*1.1*1.1 = 12.86stam = 12.86*.30 = 3.8sp
So 10 Str = ~8 SP w/ Sheath, while 10 stam = ~4sp.
10str also = 20 block value = 40 ShoR dmg *w/e modifiers it has.
Strength really is a good threat talent, IF you have Sheath. It's still good if you don't, but it's amazing if you do.
Last edited by Helot : 08/04/08 at 2:36 PM.
Reason: updating info
Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.
<after re-thinking this once again, I decided to withhold on repeating pessimistic side of the deal. After all, you just may be right in the end. In fact, you are already interestingly correct on one point - 1 Ret per raid looks necessary, and that by extention eliminates sheathbot in 25 men>
And on disarm stuff - I wouldn't bring it if not for Blue comment on boards :
In classic WoW, a lot of mobs were immune. In Burning Crusade, most mobs with weapons could be affected by it, including many bosses.
Then I went to see what the talk was about and saw the 10% damage increase.
Take a look at Divine Storm alone. It deals holy damage equal to weapon damage. That means it's an instant weapon attack that pierces armor and procs your seal.
About that, do we know what the coefficients are for divine storm ? is it 100% weapon damage as holy damage on all targets ?
Strength really is a good threat talent, IF you have Sheath. It's still good if you don't, but it's amazing if you do.
I fully expect to see strength all over our gear, both paladin tanking sets and general tanking sets. All three of the plate tanking classes get significant threat from it, as well as a reasonable kickback in terms of defensive stats-- DKs get parry, pallies and warriors get a nice chunk of block value.
They've gone to a lot of trouble to make sure that all 3 plate tanks want strength on their plate, so it makes no sense that they wouldn't give it to us.
I think that's going to have the net result of making an HotR spec tank's judgments competitive with a holy paladin's, and I wouldn't be all that surprised if a prot/sheath build came out on top for judgment strength.
About that, do we know what the coefficients are for divine storm ? is it 100% weapon damage as holy damage on all targets ?
Dive Storm is 100% weapons damage on all targets. However it is currently bugged on beta and doing physical damage. As for spell coefficient, I think like HotR and CS it does not benefit from SP, but hard to confirm for certain until it starts doing holy damage and removes armor reduction from the equation.
Originally Posted by s4dfish
Simple solution to SoL issues, have it swap places with something like Divine Purpose.
Personally I'd have it change places with Heart of the Crusader, so all 3 specs have access to it, and heart of the crusader is another perk to add to a Retadin. Oh and I forgot to say removed touched by light from the prot tree.
08/04/08, 6:46 AM
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