Cahtela, I didnt' see where you mentioned Shield of Righteousness. I appreciate the write up - were you including that in your rotation, and was the dam okay even in t6 prot? Also, what's your current block value?
Cahtela, I didnt' see where you mentioned Shield of Righteousness. I appreciate the write up - were you including that in your rotation, and was the dam okay even in t6 prot? Also, what's your current block value?
Don't get it til level 75.
Which is unfortunate, because that's probably the one new ability that I could really maximize with my current gear.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
And in terms of durability, the difference between 'one shot' and 'two shot' is actually pretty big. You can't heal one-shot. Holy Paladins are tougher than Enhancement Shaman (heck, Enhancement Shaman don't even carry Shields in raids), and no one tells them to stand in a corner off to the side so they won't be in melee range of the boss.
That's actually my point. Survivability has nothing to do with being in melee range. Rogues, pets, shaman, whatever will all die in one cleave or attack from most raid bosses, but they are in melee anyway, of course. Paladins having plate makes no difference to them being in melee or not - if there was a cloth melee class, they'd be in there, too. That's really the only point. Our class is supposedly balanced around plate armor for PvP and for tanking; it has nothing to do with healing or DPSing.
Personally, I love the melee-healing arrangement. I think it requires more skill to play effectively, and it's more interesting and more fun. But regardless of what sophisticated players like ourselves may prefer, Blizzard didn't make the zillions of dollars it has today by making its games difficult to play for people who don't use macros or download addons. I don't want them to gut the melee-healing mechanics (from a purely selfish standpoint if nothing else), but I'm afraid that's what they will do if they can't find some way to make it work intuitively from the base interface.
One solution is to split Holy Shock into two spells, one healing and one damage, that share the same cooldown. I'm not sure how you'd represent it in the talent tree, though.
I would like to say that I've always been an extremely strong proponent of melee-healing. Heck, I once defended Lawbringer as good paladin armor because it encouraged you to melee-heal. But the current design of our healing spells and raid content is such that we simply cannot afford the time costs involved. I wish it were otherwise, but that's the way it is.
One solution is to split Holy Shock into two spells, one healing and one damage, that share the same cooldown. I'm not sure how you'd represent it in the talent tree, though.
I wish it were otherwise, but that's the way it is.
One spell is fine, making a macro or installing Clique isn't hard.
The melee healer works in 5-mans in Wrath, however until a build is pushed allowing people to get 80 no one can know if melee healer will fly.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
One spell is fine, making a macro or installing Clique isn't hard.
Sure it's not hard, if you already know that that's how to solve the problem.
The point is that a new player who doesn't read the forums, doesn't browse addon sites, etc, is going to run into this awkward bit of gameplay, and he's not going to know how to fix it. He's probably not even going to know that it can be fixed. A company that wants its games to remain on top of the market doesn't design games that won't work well without third-party addons.
One thing they might do is simply build mouseover support into the default interface. Have a hint dialogue pop up for new players explaining how mouseover works and show where it can be turned on/off in the interface menu (with additional sub-options to allow mouseover targeting on player models, or on player portraits, or both).
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
The SoW melee healer idea always worked great in regular 5 mans. It's much of how I got to 60 in the first place with no regen on gear whatsoever and my chronic sclerosis about buying waters. Bosses are +3 levels on the other hand. You miss a lot and they dodge a lot. Not to mention I always tried to make it work. Even as late as Naxx, but I never saw the benefit myself. I'd judge wisdom on bosses in Naxx, but I'd never melee back what I had spent, was more for the benefit of the raid. It remains to be seen if enlightened judgment and the buff on return is enough, but I'm optimistic.
Last edited by levk : 08/08/08 at 7:42 PM.
Reason: for the English language
The melee healer works in 5-mans in Wrath, however until a build is pushed allowing people to get 80 no one can know if melee healer will fly.
We can, however, guess. Which is precisely the point of this thread.
Essentially what it boils down to is that melee healing will work if it still allows you to do your job (healing) while also providing some reasonable benefit from that melee. Note: I don't count "does less dps than the main tank" as a "reasonable benefit".
My suspicion is that the answer is yes, but it will require many Paladins to un-learn the FoL-spam method of healing and concentrate primarily on Holy Light for healing purposes.
The point is that a new player who doesn't read the forums, doesn't browse addon sites, etc, is going to run into this awkward bit of gameplay, and he's not going to know how to fix it. He's probably not even going to know that it can be fixed. A company that wants its games to remain on top of the market doesn't design games that won't work well without third-party addons.
The kind of player you're talking about will never be playing at the level where they'll need to worry about it. They probably won't even notice that they're resetting the swing timer when they switch targets to Holy Shock.
Keep in mind we're not talking about something you can only do with macros/add-ons. We're just talking about something that works a lot better with the right macros/add-ons. Which describes a fairly large chunk of the game.
Keep in mind we're not talking about something you can only do with macros/add-ons. We're just talking about something that works a lot better with the right macros/add-ons. Which describes a fairly large chunk of the game.
Actually, I think it's closer to something you can only do with macros/add-ons.
Try melee-healing with just FoL/HL without mouse-over macros. Watch how that plays. It actually plays fine and is fairly intuitive, as you never need to switch targets. It's just that you can't afford the time spent meleeing in any situation that requires serious healing. From a gameplay point-of-view, it's a great deal of fun. The reason we don't play like that is because it's simply not as effective as spamming (not counting Chrommaggus Cleanse situations).
HS melee-healing, on the other hand, requires a macro in order to play smoothly like the FoL/HL melee-healing.
The SoW melee healer idea always worked great in regular 5 mans. It's much of how I got to 60 in the first place with no regen on gear whatsoever and my chronic sclerosis about buying waters. Bosses are +3 levels on the other hand. You miss a lot and they dodge a lot.
Holy Paladins are getting 4% hit for melee and spells.
So with either type of attack you have a 5% miss + 6.5% dodge (humans have less dodge). That isn't too much of a hindrance, and raid buffs such as imp FF or Totem of Wrath can help your hit (with both your judgements will never miss).
What is nice about JoW is it has a 100% proc (outside of its cooldown), so a judgement will only cost you a GCD instead of that and some mana.
With haste affecting melee attacks and SoW 50% proc chance, things are looking good. Maybe the build tonight will show further development to Paladin's weak spells.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Which is unfortunate, because that's probably the one new ability that I could really maximize with my current gear.
Having tanked both the current end game instances in Wrath (at level 77) in basically T6 only, shield of righteousness is definitely worth it and extraordinarily useful. In fact, unless the pull required me to tank more than 4 mobs, I almost never used consecration simply because between judging, retribution aura, shield (holy and righteousness), and hammer, I never really needed to use it (or didn't have the gcd to use it). The hammer, holy shield, and retribution aura are more than sufficient to hold mobs other than your current one (and for that, shield and judgment is a good chunk of threat).
Even though we aren't itemized for the new changes, it's certainly an infinitely better situation than now.
I'm curious how you guys would spec should there be a 3.0 patch - these talents at 70. Post them up and since there's a lot of hard decisions you'd have to make at 70 write something about it. As a healer I see just full 61 holy (fairly obvious), but I'd really like to try sheath however that would be at the loss of divine illumination and any reason to judge which would hamper adjustment to this new playstyle (something like this)
I realize you were talking about Holy specifically, but I wouldn't mind sharing what I've come up with as a baseline for Prot. I think the following spec gets a majority of the talents that are ideal for leveling (given a mix of questing and 5mans), while the rest that have not been taken can be considered more in the way of flavor. (Of course, this is presuming that no changes occur in the talents...which is a highly unlikely occurrence.) I like the following though to maximize threat mechanics while minimizing mana costs where possible, especially during the crossover from currently equipped gear to WotLK itemization.
There are a few talents that will gradually be eased out in favor of others as WotLK goes on, but I think it's way too soon to see what will be optimal in the middle of end-game tanking.
These are newly up on mmo-champion. With glyphs, there will certainly be a desire for more than 2 blessings.
Glyph of Seal of Command - Increases the chance of dealing Seal of Command damage by 20%.
Glyph of Hammer of Justice - Increases your Hammer of Justice duration by 1 sec.
Glyph of Blessing of Wisdom - Your Blessing of Wisdom causes your target to also regenerate health at the same rate as mana.
Glyph of Hammer of Wrath - Increases the range on Hammer of Wrath by 5 yards.
Glyph of Crusader Strike - Your Crusader strike deals 20% more damage when your targe is incapacitated or stunned.
Glyph of Consecration - Increases the radius of Consecration by 1 yards.
Glyph of Righteous Defense - Increases the chance for your Righteous Defense ability to work successfully by 8% on each target.
Glyph of Avenger's Shield - Your Avenger's Shield hits -2 fewer targets but for 100% more damage.
Glyph of Turn Evil - Reduces the cooldown on Turn Evil by 5 sec.
Glyph of Exorcism - Your Exorcism also interrupts spellcasting for 0 sec.
Glyph of Blessing of Kings - Your Blessing of Kings also increases attack power on affected targets by 3%.
Glyph of Flash of Light - Your Flash of Light heals for -50% less initially but also heals for 196% of its inital effect over 1 to 0 sec.
Glyph of Holy Light - Your Holy Light grants 10% of its heal amount to up to 5 friendly targets within 5 of the initial target.
Glyph of Blessing of Might - Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.
Glyph of Lay on Hands - Your Lay on Hands also grants you as much mana as it grants your target.
Glyph of Seal of Wisdom - While Seal of Wisdom is active the cost of your healing spells is reduced by -5%.
Glyph of Seal of Light - While Seal of Light is active the effect of your healing spells is increased by 5%.
I have to say, those glpyhs are a lot more powerful than what I was expecting. I'm considering dropping alchemy for inscription just for the extra glpyh slot. Afterall, the alchemy effect will be a lot weaker now that we're only allowed one potion per fight.
I don't know what to day, those paladin glyphs compared to the other classes i've seen are crazy. Really well thought out. I'm very impressed with the attention blizz is giving paladins....keep it coming blizz, my skepticism is lifting.
This one could be very interesting.
Glyph of Seal of Command - Increases the chance of dealing Seal of Command damage by 20%.
Imagine a weapon with hasted speed of 3.0. This gives a 35% chance to proc SoC. Does this 20% means 0.35*1.2 or 0.35+0.2. The former would increase the ppm by 20% the later by 57%. The later could also promote fast speed weapon for SoC as the faster the weapon the greater the ppm % increase.
I have to say, those glpyhs are a lot more powerful than what I was expecting. I'm considering dropping alchemy for inscription just for the extra glpyh slot. Afterall, the alchemy effect will be a lot weaker now that we're only allowed one potion per fight.
As far as I recall Mixology in its latest version only granted Elixir and Flask benefits.
I don't know what to day, those paladin glyphs compared to the other classes i've seen are crazy. Really well thought out. I'm very impressed with the attention blizz is giving paladins....keep it coming blizz, my skepticism is lifting.
This one could be very interesting.
Glyph of Seal of Command - Increases the chance of dealing Seal of Command damage by 20%.
Imagine a weapon with hasted speed of 3.0. This gives a 35% chance to proc SoC. Does this 20% means 0.35*1.2 or 0.35+0.2. The former would increase the ppm by 20% the later by 57%. The later could also promote fast speed weapon for SoC as the faster the weapon the greater the ppm % increase.
This came to mind when I first saw that glyph. For pvp purposes, a 3.8 weapon speed would equate a 64% SoC proc if we follow the second method of calculation, or ~10 ppm. Do the procs of SoC from Crusader Strike and Divine Storm fall under the ppm rule, as in 'consuming' part of the ppm?
- JoJ bug is fixed now (no more double damage)
- Hammer of the Righteous still deals physical damage (has new sound... a bit weird)
- Seals are still not refreshing from melee hits
- Beacon of Light is unchanged
- Crusader Strike description is now: "An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage". It no longer has the part "and refreshes all Judgements on the target." (screenshot)
I'm currently prot but going to respec ret soon so I can test ret changes
Glyph of Avenger's Shield - Your Avenger's Shield hits -2 fewer targets but for 100% more damage.
This one annoys me even more than the fact that when you respec you have to reglyph. There are times you would want that...and times you wouldn't. Do you have to reglyph each time you want this? Or is there a way to trade glyphs out without destroying them/turn them on and off?
08/08/08, 5:33 PM
Similar Threads
