Dorvan

Scaling with Stamina is very problematic though for a couple of reasons: First of all, you're going to have a lot less spell damage than AP in the new tanking gear, which means SoR would have to have a much higher SP coefficient to be workable for Tankadins if the AP coeff was dropped. This in turn could well have some bizarre implications for Holy Pallies: actually doing too much DPS for their spec.

Secondly the less threat depends on AP, the harder it is to scale it in encounter-specific adjustments. 30% of your stamina isn't going to be susceptible to significant changes based on gear selection, whereas AP should be much easier to rachet up or down through gemming, or in the extreme by wearing a DPS piece or two. Being able to adjust ones gear for more threat or more mitigation has long been a significant and interesting part of playing a Tankadin.

 

GSH

Half the problem is that the devs don't have levers to pull. We have so few offensive abilities that changing one has massive ramifications.

 

Astalion

Not sure if anyone noticed my post, but would be interested in hearing people's opinions on changing seal scaling through crit coefficients and such (See my post near the end of page 83 :P) since crit is sort of the defining factor of retribution compared to protection scaling (since both of them use both strength and spellpower to some degree)

 

Prinsesa

This is actually an intriguing idea. Back when the patch notes read Fanaticism was a straight +25% crit to everything, I yelled "you magnificent bastards!" out loud, because massive leveraging on SoB/SoC's ability to crit was just what the doctor ordered and would allow it to pull more even/ahead with SoR/SoV.

I got to thinking whoever thought of that change was extremely clever, until I realized it was all just a typo.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Xanil

Ok. I came up with a new problem. Basically with this I mean that Beacon of light and Flourish dont really go into any of the existing coefficiency categories. Why so? Mainly because they are both HoT's and Area of effect heals (group heals). In wowwiki there is a list of the coefficiencies and there isnt anything into which these two new AoEHoT's drop into. Priests CoH and shamans Chain heal drops into AoE heal slot cause they are basically direct group heals. But the problem is that the new group heals that we get in expansion have a HoT element in them as well.

In Cathela's paladin thread Cathela speculates that for the Beacon of light "The spellpower coefficient is 94% spread over the entire duration of the beacon, roughly equivalent to a +healing coefficient of 50%." So the number according to this article is 94%.

However, if you take the Are of effect and HoT coefficiencies given we dont get anywhere near the 94%. To explain.
Area of effect coefficiency is calculated as follows:

(Cast Time of Spell / 3.5) / 2 *1,89= Benefit

Over time (HoT) coefficiency is calculated as follows:

(Duration of Spell / 15) *1,89 = Total

The 1.89 in the formula is the speculated coefficiency raise which we get in Wotlk.

Now if you take Beacon of light into calculations and fit into both AoE and HoT coefficiencies you have the following results:
AoE (1.5 / 3.5 ) / 2 *1.89 = 0.41
HoT (15 / 15) * 1.89 = 1.89
From here you can see that the suggested 94% coefficiency for Beacon of light doesnt fit into neither coefficiency category.

Therefore I suggest that there is a new category of healing coefficiencys and that the 94% given to us in the paladin forums can work as the ground from which we can theorycraft coefficiencies for all other AoEHoT's. It is left here open what the formula would look like (ill try to work something out).

May I ask from where the 94% comes from? beta realm test, blue post or some other reliable source?

 

Phayne2355

Not to claim that I know in any form what the coef should be, but shouldnt it follow the Druid Tranquility spell?

 

nevinera

You'd think it'd be easy enough for them to just say 'and seals' on the talent..
Heck, let fanatacism apply too. That's one way to get soc back where it ought to be!

 

Fiola

Where does the 1/2 term for AE come from? If it's the penalty for AE spells, I was under the impression that AEs used a 1/3 penalty. (ie: takes 3+ targets to get good scaling)


Also, isn't 1.89 / 2 = 0.945 ~= 0.94? If the AE spell penalty is 0.5, then it seems that BoL being an AE HoT, gets HoT coefficients with an AE penalty.

 

bellator

Xanil,

The key thing is that not all spells got a 1.89 multiplyer to their current coefficient.

Both Flash of Light and Holy had their coefficients increase by a multiplyer of 2.33

Apply this to the number of 0.41 you mentioned for AoE, and this comes out to about 95.5% which is close to the 94% I got from some quick testing (may be a few % off)

 

Xanil

Actually not. Tranquillity is 8 sec channeled spell when Beacon of light and Flourish are 1.5sec direct casts.

a) Accoding to WoWiki the penalty is 1/2.
b) Sure. Your right. It would certainly make sense if the the spell would be calculated with HoT coefficiency combined with the AoE penalty. What a simple solution. Ill kiss you for this

Well I was just going to post an enquiry regarding this new coefficients that paladins are accused of having.

This is what has been argued:
-Flash of Light has a 100% spellpower coefficient. This is higher than expected based on the old +healing coefficient and the conversion rate of +healing to spellpower.
-Holy Light has a 166% spellpower coefficient. This is also higher than expected.
-Holy Shock has an 81% spellpower coefficient when used as a heal. This matches expectations from the old +healing coefficient for this spell.


For instance if we take the new flash of light spellpower coefficient that Cathela has speculated we would have 100% coefficiency for a 1.5sec spell. This is incredibly high considered that 3.5sec used to be 100% coefficient for Standard heals. Taken that the speculated new raise into coefficiency is 189% then we should end at looking at (1.5/3.5)*1.89= 0.81. So my question is- from where does the 0.19 come into the new coefficiency?

Why this 2.33 looks funny is that if you put the "old" variables of Standard heal coefficiency into wrong order you manage to get 2.33. This comes from 3.5/1.5=2.33 when its supposed to be 1.5/3.5 which is ~0.43 (viz. the good old coefficiency for FoL).

 

milagre

The Blessing of Light bonus now applies directly to flash of/holy light.

 

• Avitus

Don't think anyone disagreed/found anything to bring up against the "make SoC available at level 1" solution.

-SoC at level 1
-SoR at level 10 or 20, but restricted to 1h, for tanking
-SoB where SoC is now in the ret tree
-SoV sometime level 50 or 60 as a high level tanking seal, also restricted to 1h

No need to change co-efficients, no one loses out, no one is overpowered and each Seal has its role.

 

Fiola

So the short version is that it looks like paladins get a "base spell speed" of 1.5 seconds?

FoL: 1.5 / 1.5 = 100%
HL: 2.5 / 1.5 = 167%


BoL is only a static bonus, though, so I wouldn't have expected that change to affect the scaling, only the base heal amount.


Actually, I do want to use SoR/SoV as Ret. I don't think they should be the premier DPS seals at all gear levels*, but I like options, and the various seals are different enough that I can see them as situationally useful if balanced well.


*I think at least one seal should have very strong base damage scaling/weaker gear scaling so that it's useful to under-geared characters - that could be our "leveling seal". SoR?

 

milagre

The Blessing of Light bonus now applies directly to flash of/holy light.

-Mod Edit-
No, I won't delete your post. If you said something dumb and it's already been quoted, you just have to man up and deal.

 

Xanil

Im not completely sure what you mean by saying that it directly applies to FoL/HL. Do you mean that the Blessing of light now directly causes coefficiency to change rather than that the Blessing of light bonus would be added either (a) on top of the base heal of FoL/HL or then (b) on top of the baseheal+coef*spellpower? Can I see some calculations how Blessing of light changes coef by 0.19 upwards. It would be a massive change in Blessing of light if it suddenly would improve the total healing of FoL by 19% alone. I doubt. Ill try to think a way tomorrow how blessing of light bonus could even squeezed somehow into the world of coefficiencies.

 

Aeverius

Are you missing the fact that Blessing of Light was removed entirely? Its functionality was rolled into the base spells, although I can't explain the particulars adequately (ie, whether it was simply added to base heal amounts, whether the coefficient was increased, or whatever). If I'm misunderstanding you, my apologies, but you seem to be treating BoL as a buff available on the target when it no longer is.

[e] From the first post in the thread:

Improved Lay on Hands is really fucking good:

 

Xanil

I was arguing about the coefficiency of the FoL/HL in Woltk and was wandering from where the additional 19% came to those spells coefficiencies. When Milagri replied "Blessing of light now applies directly to Fol/HL" I kinda jumped into the conclusion that he meant that "because of blessing of light the FoL/HL coefficiency is now 19% higher than it was before". Yeh, but I do admit that I had no idea that they had removed the spell from skills list and added it into the base heal of FoL/HL (as is possible to read from your quote "This seems to mean an increase in the base healing done by Holy Light and Flash of Light. Rank 11 Holy Light, for example, has had its healing increased by 622." Therefore meaning that Beacon of light was not the reason im looking for the 19% FoL/HL coefficient increase.

But I assume this would only involve Fol/HL cause Beacon of light will follow our recent "joint discovery" of AoEHoT's (or what should we name those ). The AoEHoT coefficient follows the 1.89 rule rather than the 2.33 rule which you guys are so fond of. But, it normal that one healing class follows more than one coefficient, compare druid which uses AoEHoT, HoT, AoE, Standard heal and Hybrid coefficiencies.

Would be a strange "curve" in blizzard policy however to give one type of spells more than one coefficiency. By this I mean that for Druid's regrowth the calculations work with 1.89 coefficiency rather than with the 2.33. Would be interesting to see if there are other similar cases where same type of spells have different coefficiencies.

Anyway, its possible to say that Blizzard broke the coefficiencies already at start when they built different mechanism for dps and healers for Wotlk. Therefore its possible to think that there might be more as radical changes to coefficiences.

 

Hylo

The more I think about this the more it feels right - you said this much better than me with my lengthy descriptions

- You start with 2h so you need 2h seal to use with it. SoC will do the job fine

- There are no instances where you can really tank before levels 10-20 so postponing SoR doesn't hinder your functionality at all (note that you'll get Righteous Fury at lvl16)

- Your ret talent seal (SoB) actually gives better dps than the baseline one - not the other way around!

- Horde paladins have tanked fine with SoR only so giving SoV later as an "extra punch" for threat seems totally natural. Even now you get it only at lvl64. Now that I think of it, there's no reason to make this a talent so everybody could get it. This leaves us with one talent seal in the exact same place as it was before - just different seal.

The only problems I can seen now come in PvP where you might want to use SoV on rogues/druids while equipping a 2h. Other than that this seems win-win situation: Blizzard can tune SoR and SoV without fear of the situations like we have currently in the beta and seals will be a bit more intuitive for new paladins.

 

Noctivagant

I have never liked the randomness of SoC. I would personally like SoC to be reworked away from a wing and a prayer, towards something predictable, kind of like a SoV with the stunned target bonus.

One thought would be to give SoV at level 1, and make it talented in Ret for PVP use.

 

Darian_TruBlade

For all the complaints about having four seals that do effectively the same thing, I don't think anyone wants their main tanking seal balanced around PvP. While not exactly the same situation, we've already seen the kinds of problems that causes in the form of Lifebloom.

 

mclem

I'm not against the suggestions in general, but I ought to point out that SoB is also pretty useful for tanks in content they outgear to counter mana starvation issues.

 

• frmorrison

Downranking was effectively removed in the latest push as well as some spells have more reasonable costs. The potion sickness change is still not in.

Example: Chain Heal 5 - 671 mana, Chain Heal 4 - 847 mana, this is at level 77.


Edit: BoL is now 35% of base mana and Holy Shock is 18% of base mana, Flash is 9% and HL is 29%

At 80, I guess there will be around 4,000 base mana.

HL cost = 1160
FL cost = 280
Holy Shock = 720
Beacon of Light = 1400

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Prinsesa

I couldn't help but notice that Crusader Strike was back to refreshing Judgements, Divine Protection is no longer included in Divine Guardian and Holy Shield is now 6 charges baseline on the official talent calculator. Can anyone confirm?

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Hesperia

Beacon of light

Lower ranks have a higher percentage of base mana cost. Max rank of BoL is 30% of base mana.

 

◊ Cathela

In order: no, yes, no.

The Divine Guardian change happened at least one patch ago, however.

EDIT:

It's kinda weird. Right now, at level 73 with no talents:

Holy Light Ranks 1-10: 1150 mana
Holy Light Rank 11: 981 mana

Other spells follow the same pattern. It's like they wanted to give them uniform mana costs but they screwed up the last couple ranks or something.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.