Some judgements use spell hit, others use melee hit. It doesn't matter anymore, since hit rating affects both melee and spells and the innate 1% resist of spells is removed (also both have the same hit cap).


I think those notes are a typo, mmo-champion has 30% less dispels in its calculator. I don't think 60% less dispel is too much, since Hand spells have a cooldowns and short durations.

That is a typo, it showed up a few builds ago, but was confirmed as just a typo.

Anybody else thinking that Consecration - Spell - World of Warcraft get too big Co-ef numbers?
Ret paladin with 5000ap it will deal [5000 * (.32 + 0.3 * 0.32) + 904] * 1.15(vengeance) * 1.03(crusade) * 1.02(sanct) * 1.05(misery) = 2984 * 1.269 = 3785damage or 473dps.
Ability dealing [41.6% of AP] damage + 904 over 8s sounds bit too much for rotation filler.

But this is obviously a huge boost to cleanse. I think it's a buff overall since freedom and protection are long cooldowns anyway. I don't know if I like this way of doing it though. Contagion is retarded (and ever lock will have it) but so is spending points somewhere else to battle it. Probably relegates holy/sheath to an 'offspec' arena build right there.

EDIT: nevermind people are saying it's a typo.

No you wouldnt. Costs are based on the same base mana value across the board so as you level every rank including rank 1 increases its mana cost relating to the new base mana at that level. Furthermore the later ranks actualy cost less than the first ranks as well as healing for more.

So, not training the new ranks would be about the dumbest thing you could do :P

As already stated in this thread and elsewhere, spells have a 17% hit cap in Wrath. The rumor that it had been changed to 9% was shown to be false. It is true that the 1% chance to be resisted no matter what can now be removed, though, thus 17% instead of 16%.

EDIT:
That's absolutely correct, and is exactly what I was saying. I was responding to someone who said "Why don't they just remove the old ranks from your spellbook instead of increasing the cost of old ranks?" (emphasis added)

My fault. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes but you implied that if they removed old ranks, we would benefit from downranking, which is what I was adressing as being about the dumbest thing you could do

Basicaly if you didn't train for the next rank, your current spell would cost the same mana as the new one would if you trained it, EXCEPT it would heal for less. So why would you ever not learn the new rank? I actually think blizzard is gonna figure this out and remove old ranks that act the same as the new ones accross the board. Like holy light and flash of light.

Have you done testing on the beta to confirm this?

Spell hit cap is 9% now? Link.



Edit: Nevermind, has been answered while I was posting (instancing and alt tab post = slow posting).

I looked at patchnotes back to 1.12 and didn't see anything like that. I'm saying this is because judgment procced crusader. Now crusader might be just weird because if you put crusader on a mining pick it would proc when you mined. But I was thinking for a pvp enchant with 30 yard judgments the new frost-whats-its-name enchant would be an interesting choice.

Sorry, I should have specified beta patch notes.

That test you are referring to was using TBC spells, only Wrath spells had the new spell hit mechanics added to it at that time.

Perhaps with the latest build all spells have Wrath mechanics added to it.

Actually that wouldn't be the case. As you level, your "base mana" would increase and since spell costs are going off this base mana value you'd be using a lower rank spell with the same cost of the higher rank spell if you don't train, so that's really not an answer.

The only reason they haven't removed the old spells (for classes like us that don't have shorter casts for lower ranks) is because they couldn't be bothered (yet).

Ok that makes sense if its ONLY removing lower ranks without actualy changing the mana cost. I thought the issue discussed here was not training new ranks WITH these new mana values on lower ranks. Which was clear to me from you quoting and responding to avitus' post.

I guess I went a step further assuming the issue discussed was downranking WITH these new mana values which realy didnt make sense (even if you trained higher ranks or not) which led me to believe blizzard would just remove all lower ranks as a next step for spells which keep the same mechanics.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure we agree on the whole issue. There's no use in flooding this forum with more cross-examining of one another's posts :P

Someone reported (and I don't have a citation, sorry) that there is a check box that will hide all but the highest rank of each spell in your spell book.

Maybe, oh, one page ago?

http://elitistjerks.com/853485-post2129.html

Edit so I don't doublepost:

So, with this "NO DOWNRANKING" business Blizzard's suddenly throwing at us, and the way they've been keeping mana costs relatively high (or at least last I checked they still were), how are they expecting paladins to still be the most mana efficient?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the logic here. Maybe I should go take a look at druid/priest/shaman spellbooks and such, but it just seems like priests and druids will have regen out the butt, negating any kind of 'efficiency' paladins have. As far as I was aware, downranking was the only thing Paladins had.

Sacred Shield is cool, and ridiculously, ridiculously cheap, but... 500 damage is like a drop in a bucket. Also, it's a GCD for a drop in a bucket.
Edit: Hopefully it'll scale with spellpower.

Looking over the spells currently, I see... Holy Light looks better than Regrowth and Healing Touch in terms of base efficiency, slightly better than Greater Heal (but it'll scale better), Healing wave is cheaper and...

You know what, at this stage this is more of just pointless whining. I need to do quite a bit of math (and factor in talents) before I'll complain more, but it's just... at this juncture, I'm not seeing where the light at the end of the tunnel is.

Who knows, maybe 29% of base mana isn't bad whatsoever.

Would anyone be so kind as to point out to me where I can find the value for level 80 base mana for Paladins, so I can crunch some numbers?

I don't think they are. Looking at the new spell costs and talents, it looks to me like paladins are supposed to be the new king of instant heals. Efficiency will come from being able to minimize overheal (much easier to do with instants) and regen with SoW/JoW in between the instant heals.

At least, that's the way it looks to me. I'm not sure what else to conclude from the fact that HL and FoL are taking a nosedive in efficiency, whereas priest heals aren't.

Just a note, HL12 went from 1585 mana to ~1000ish mana (at level 75) in the latest build, so that's pretty significant.

I'm sure it'll be balanced somehow in the end. FoL is still possibly the most efficient heal in the game, more so now that the effect of BoL has been rolled into it (since you frequently don't have BoL on everyone in raid atm).



I think this "no downranking business" is definitely going in the right direction (for once blizzards "approach" is the right one) and it should have been done long ago.

I hope it brings skill and timing back into healing since you value your mana more now rather than infinite spam of low rank heals.

Considering that healing paladins in TBC had no effective means of regaining mana (Mana Fiend, Innervate, Water Shield/Mana Tide), our heals needed to be super efficient. Think of Divine Plea as a 50% increase in your total mana and if we end up spending 50% more mana in an encounter, we should break even (excluding potion chugging).

Base Mana depends on race and class.

Someone said in this thread a 72 Paladin had 3250 base mana. A 70 Paladin has around 3000 base mana. Using a 250 mana per 2 levels, 4000 base mana at 80 is guessed.


Anyway, with 100% JoW and an ability to judge from a distance, added with a better BoW (almost 100 mp5) and Divine Plea, mana is not looking too bad.

As things stands now, I'm trying to figure out where FoL fits into our "kit". Its base line healing is incredibly low (I imagine because they're so scared of ret-pvp, else we'd have a flash that's consistent with everyone else), so it is really a Holy tool, right? So, maybe for cheap raid healing?

If for some reason heals end up NOT resetting the swing timer, then it's a whole new ball game - at that point it is a ret tool. Fat chance.

Edit: Probably has a lot to do with us trying to analyze a very immature state of the game.

The way I see heals is Holy Shock (most efficient heal now) with infusion Holy Lights for tank healing (LoH for oh shit moments) and Flash for raid healing.