When you think of this spell being used in conjunction with Death and Decay (DoT + chance for Horror), it seems a little too powerful.
This ability isn't keeping people close to Paladins, rather, it's penalizing them for being far away. Unless the damage done is significant, I don't see it compelling anyone to actually 'stand and fight'.
I do think Taunt should be usable in PvP, though, but that's more along the lines of a peeling ability.
On a side note, at that point you're looking at a "you can't drink" ability on par with a pet - which is probably pushing it.
A 2.5 sec cast lengthened to 3.5 seconds is equivalent to a 30% penalty in HPS.
A 1.5 sec cast lengthened to 2.5 seconds is equivalent to a 40% penalty in HPS.
Obviously, how much that's worth depends on how much you plan to heal... for occasional off-healing, you can skip the talent with minimal loss, but I'm planning to grab it.
PvE or PvP off healing?
In PvP the talent is largely going to be irrelevant as Ret against anything but a hunters pet....or a ret paladin. Everyone else beating on you and slowing your casting will simply interrupt you instead.
If you are often made to heal in PvE I guess it could be useful.
So the old DK quote did also intend us. I imagine they mean fixing JotW and perhaps adding something deep in ret to make us more viable as mana batteries.
I find it troubling that you left out the rest of what Ghostcrawler said.
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
Retribution Paladin excessive DPS in beta
The point I was making to the death knights was that some of their abilities might feel "fun" because they were incredibly broken and doing insane dps. I compared them to the Ret, because I assumed everyone knew how broken Rets were at the time.
He was referring to the broken JoJ build, and nothing else. This wasn't and isn't a doomsday alert for Ret Paladins, which is what a lot of people were trying to explain.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
Actually that wouldn't be the case. As you level, your "base mana" would increase and since spell costs are going off this base mana value you'd be using a lower rank spell with the same cost of the higher rank spell if you don't train, so that's really not an answer.
The only reason they haven't removed the old spells (for classes like us that don't have shorter casts for lower ranks) is because they couldn't be bothered (yet).
Why is everyone misunderstanding what I said?
Someone else said, "Why doesn't Blizzard leave it the way it is now on live servers, where spells cost a fixed value regardless of your level, and then remove old ranks when you train new ones?"
I said, "Because then you wouldn't train new ranks."
Is that clear enough yet? I understand that under the new Wrath system that would be pointless.
I don't necessarily agree with this. So what, they'd have more competition over arena spots. I agree that if giving us a snare/MS/interrupts would make us overpowered, then it's not the right thing to do, however the argument of "ret can't get X in Arena because paladins can always spec healing to get into arena" is not a strong one.
If ret got say an interrupt similar to rogues/warriors it would make the spec more viable for 2v2 (anyone hear of ret + healer atm? No. because it doesn't really work that well in high rating), but it wouldn't push out rogues or warriors who are still going to be offering a snare and MS. Same can be said for giving us only MS.
Ultimately the only reason to withhold abilities should be if these abilities would "completely sideline" a different class/spec, not if it would simply elevate them to be "competitive" over the spot.
I think what you and many other Paladins are failing to recognize, is that Paladins still are hybrids. At the end of the day that is all it boils down too. Giving Paladins MS or even an interrupt would make Paladins ridiculous. If you gave us MS why would you bring a warrior? For the most part the damage (warrior damage) is not really controlled their burst is not really "high" and they are hugely reliant on receiving BoFs and cleanses. A Paladin with MS on the other hand, has the potential for controlled burst, can dispell itself and offers some pretty strong buffs.
I think Ret Paladins supporting melee is extremely fair as long as they do it extremely well. There are a lot of comps that simply do not work not because the specs are "weak" but instead due to their lack of synergy. Mage/Warrior would be a good example. Both are strong classes when partnered with the right groups, but Mage/Warrior is gimped in comparison to Mage/Rogue.
Ideally around 2 of each class should be in a raid. It can't be 2.5 because most raids require 7-8 healers and not 5. Changing this would be pretty difficult as it would mean adding stiffer enrage timers and other penalties for bringing too many healers. Shamans, paladins and druids (and maybe priests) are probably going to be closer to 3 per raid because their specs are so different and one of them can heal. The question remains of who goes home if the DK comes in? Though a just as valid question is who goes home if the moonkin comes.
When I read this, I think of it like this. With 8 healers you are almost required to have 2 holy paladins (one BoL and one SHoL probably), otherwise you wind up with THREE healers from a different other class. That covers two blessings as well as the utility of both prot (kings, ida, divine guardian) and ret (HotC, imp bom, possibly even sanctified ret and JotW).
Now, it isn't quite as practical to say a holy paladin can cover all the goods a ret paladin brings (speed buff, most powerful judgements, CC, light aoe group heal).
Therefore who gets the shaft? The prot paladin who brings ONLY better aoe tanking than a holy pally, because everything else can be done by a different class that doesn't already have three in a raid (JotJ = Tclap, Blessing of Sanctuary = lol?). Drop the prot paladin and you can pick up a different class with other buffs.
Am I missing something, because right now I see even less incentive to bring a prot paladin than in TBC. Sure, we've been given the tools to be as good as a prot warrior as main tanking, but I would rather bring a DK for their utility and DPS than a 4th paladin.
When I read this, I think of it like this. With 8 healers you are almost required to have 2 holy paladins (one BoL and one SHoL probably), otherwise you wind up with THREE healers from a different other class. That covers two blessings as well as the utility of both prot (kings, ida, divine guardian) and ret (HotC, imp bom, possibly even sanctified ret and JotW).
Now, it isn't quite as practical to say a holy paladin can cover all the goods a ret paladin brings (speed buff, most powerful judgements, CC, light aoe group heal).
Therefore who gets the shaft? The prot paladin who brings ONLY better aoe tanking than a holy pally, because everything else can be done by a different class that doesn't already have three in a raid (JotJ = Tclap, Blessing of Sanctuary = lol?). Drop the prot paladin and you can pick up a different class with other buffs.
Am I missing something, because right now I see even less incentive to bring a prot paladin than in TBC. Sure, we've been given the tools to be as good as a prot warrior as main tanking, but I would rather bring a DK for their utility and DPS than a 4th paladin.
You bring Prot Paladins, because they are basically going to be literally as good as warriors, but they bring great raid buffs. If Blizzard keeps prot pallies on the route they are on. I am moreso afraid for Warriors. There was a Blizzard talking about people imagining a raid with 0 Warriors.
You will bring 1Prot, 1Holy and 1Ret each spec'd into the particular blessing in their tree. I think this is what Blizzard is actually going for especially between the new Inscriptions they gave for each blessing.
Last edited by incogn.egro.ito : 08/15/08 at 6:01 PM.
You bring Prot Paladins, because they are basically going to be literally as good as warriors, but they bring great raid buffs. If Blizzard keeps prot pallies on the route they are on. I am moreso afraid for Warriors. There was a Blizzard talking about people imagining a raid with 0 Warriors.
You will being 1Prot, 1Holy and 1Ret each spec'd into the particular blessing in their tree. I think this is what Blizzard is actually going for especially between the new Inscriptions they gave for each blessing.
There is one raid buff that a holy paladin cannot obtain in the protection tree while still being able to invest 51 points in holy. Judgements of the Just. Which is a debuff that can be done by at least THREE other classes.
Edit: Please, just show me a raid with a 8 healers and a prot paladin that has more synergy than one without, because by all accounts I can't put one together.
I am moreso afraid for Warriors. There was a Blizzard talking about people imagining a raid with 0 Warriors.
While this could become technically viable, I don't see it becoming common. Guilds that have a history of warrior main tanks will not, out of the blue, be dropping them.
Inadvertently a cold-blooded water-breathing vertebrate with a mood disorder.
There is one raid buff that a holy paladin cannot obtain in the protection tree while still being able to invest 51 points in holy. Judgements of the Just. Which is a debuff that can be done by at least THREE other classes.
Its still a silly argument: prot pallys will definitly have a place in raids. We've got a full threat rotation, an 'oh-shit' button and a valuable tanking niche.
You seem to be forgetting that Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druids both have snares, both can break snares, both have interrupts, and both can instantly swap forms to be 40% faster. You said yourself that Enhancement Shaman, even though they have a Snare and an Interrupt, they aren't taking the roles of Warriors and Rogues.
The Big Three is nothing more than The Big One, a Healing Debuff.
Shamans healing debuff is purge. It removes hots and shields.
Edit: Please, just show me a raid with a 8 healers and a prot paladin that has more synergy than one without, because by all accounts I can't put one together.
Any raid where the prot paladin is more competent, more reliable, and/or significantly better geared than one or more of the alternatives?
I agree with "pope master" here, it seems silly to fret over raid spots based strictly on the mathematical synergy of the class mechanics, because 99% of guilds don't build raid groups based strictly on those considerations. (Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong...)
I think what you and many other Paladins are failing to recognize, is that Paladins still are hybrids. At the end of the day that is all it boils down too. Giving Paladins MS or even an interrupt would make Paladins ridiculous. If you gave us MS why would you bring a warrior? For the most part the damage (warrior damage) is not really controlled their burst is not really "high" and they are hugely reliant on receiving BoFs and cleanses. A Paladin with MS on the other hand, has the potential for controlled burst, can dispell itself and offers some pretty strong buffs.
I think Ret Paladins supporting melee is extremely fair as long as they do it extremely well. There are a lot of comps that simply do not work not because the specs are "weak" but instead due to their lack of synergy. Mage/Warrior would be a good example. Both are strong classes when partnered with the right groups, but Mage/Warrior is gimped in comparison to Mage/Rogue.
As I said above, the only ability we could get that would affect Warrior popularity is Mortal Strike.
Look at the other Hybrid Melee classes in the Arena - Enhancement Shaman and Feral Druids. Shaman have both a snare, Frost Shock/Earthbind (and to an extent, Hex), and an interrupt, Earth Shock. Druids have a snare, Infected Wounds, and an interrupt, Feral Charge/Maim. Not to mention both of these classes can instantly remove snares, and have 40% movement speed increase in their respective forms.
Since Feral Druids abilities are pending, we'll look at Shaman right now. Do you see any Enhancement Shaman taking the spots of Warriors in the arena? No, because Warriors are strong due to Mortal Strike, and not Snares and Interrupts.
Originally Posted by Questioner
*snip*
When I read this, I think of it like this. With 8 healers you are almost required to have 2 holy paladins (one BoL and one SHoL probably), otherwise you wind up with THREE healers from a different other class. That covers two blessings as well as the utility of both prot (kings, ida, divine guardian) and ret (HotC, imp bom, possibly even sanctified ret and JotW).
Now, it isn't quite as practical to say a holy paladin can cover all the goods a ret paladin brings (speed buff, most powerful judgements, CC, light aoe group heal).
Therefore who gets the shaft? The prot paladin who brings ONLY better aoe tanking than a holy pally, because everything else can be done by a different class that doesn't already have three in a raid (JotJ = Tclap, Blessing of Sanctuary = lol?). Drop the prot paladin and you can pick up a different class with other buffs.
Am I missing something, because right now I see even less incentive to bring a prot paladin than in TBC. Sure, we've been given the tools to be as good as a prot warrior as main tanking, but I would rather bring a DK for their utility and DPS than a 4th paladin.
Bringing a Protection Paladin isn't an issue that we can have a blanket discussion about, since it really depends on the guild and what players they have. If they make all 4 tanks equal, you're still probably not going to take more than 2 each raid. It's up to each individual guild to decide who they bring.
Also an issue for the guild is what healer setup to bring. How can you assume it's required to have 2 holy paladins when there's no information on level 80 raids or even the role of Paladin healers in WotLK?
Without knowing the dynamics of raiding in WotLK, or even the finalized changes for any of the healing classes, any possible conclusion that could be drawn from a debate on the subject would most likely be rendered null in two weeks, in which the entire process would repeat itself.
Originally Posted by Questioner
Edit: Please, just show me a raid with a 8 healers and a prot paladin that has more synergy than one without, because by all accounts I can't put one together.
What Synergy does a Protection Warrior give? The only raid utility I can see is Vigilance, which a Protection Paladin could match with Hand of Salvation.
Originally Posted by Argavaine
Shamans healing debuff is purge. It removes hots and shields.
Yet they don't replace Warriors.
People seem to think giving us a tool Warriors have will make them completely obsolete, but they obviously have something going for them.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
While this could become technically viable, I don't see it becoming common. Guilds that have a history of warrior main tanks will not, out of the blue, be dropping them.
Just as an anecdote, our first Kara raid consisted of 4 (!) paladins - 2 holy + 2 prots, feral for dps and clutch offtank, hunter, rogue, mage, and 2 warlocks. So not only did we not have any warriors we had no priests either. With this group we didn't wipe to a boss and got all server firsts until Curator, although I think we did wipe to those skeleton sentries on the way to the opera. We didn't choose this group it was just the first bunch of people that levelled and got attuned. Of course it's the easiest part of Kara and who cares, but I don't expect Naxx 2.0 to be tightly tuned either - that would be spider wing, Raz and Noth. With Curator level of tuning starting at Patchwork and Loatheb, and Netherspite and Aran complexities at whatever is left of the horsemen. The tightly tuned stuff like sunwell is quite a ways off, I just hope it is tuned unlike the burning crusade start, and if they feel at that point one or another class scales too well or too poorly they'll change that for sure.
I thought these forums were supposed to host "intelligent discussion", and yet every response to a "retri needs more utility"-post seems to be assuming the only utility we need/ask for is mortal strike. We need a slowing effect or a spellinterrupt, such is life.
On a siden note, in the latest build hunters got a reversed charge (throws you 15ft backwards), deterrance which gives them a 60% chance to resist spells, chimera shot now refreshes poisons and a disarm - if they'll continue speccing marksman for PvP.
Basicly, they have: offensive dispell, mortal strike, manaburn, disarm, silence, slow effects, crowd control and so forth. And they still have decent survivability and loads of ways to escape now.
Do you really think a slow effect or interrupt would ruin the game for everyone else?
Also an issue for the guild is what healer setup to bring. How can you assume it's required to have 2 holy paladins when there's no information on level 80 raids or even the role of Paladin healers in WotLK?
The Ghostcrawler quote said 7-8 healers. There's 4 healing classes. Therefore we assume 2 healers per class.
Now, it's possible that people will prefer to bring 1 Paladin healer and 3 healers from a different class. But that doesn't fix the problem, just shifts it onto the shoulders of another class. If you bring 3 Resto Shamans, there's no room for Enhancement or Elemental Shamans (unless you start eating into the slots available for other classes). Ditto for druids and priests.
A 2.5 sec cast lengthened to 3.5 seconds is equivalent to a 30% penalty in HPS.
A 1.5 sec cast lengthened to 2.5 seconds is equivalent to a 40% penalty in HPS.
Obviously, how much that's worth depends on how much you plan to heal... for occasional off-healing, you can skip the talent with minimal loss, but I'm planning to grab it.
Fiola. He's a ret paladin wanting to throw an occasional heal in arena. You're discussing HPS.
??
Why must everything be so hard and require "spelling out the obvious" without considering the context.
Generally (not necessarily directed at you Fiola) it's starting to feel like a one-upsmanship contest at the cost of actually saying something useful.
Originally Posted by levk
Yeah I was looking at that as well. Partial pushback resistance will make a difference now as well - the way I see it on live it's either 100% or it isn't. Which is why I was thinking they could bring healing light to first tier, 2 points filler in spiritual focus which are actually useful because it brings your maximum pushback to .7 seconds without conc and .4 seconds with conc, then you have unyielding faith, and suppose they move blessed hands here. From here you will go back to prot for divine strength, or sacrifice another point and go for illumination. And then you could drop light's grace a tier at 25 point requirement, above divine favor. Maybe those two together would make people think about giving up divine storm, or maybe they won't.
I'm having a real hard time reading this, please do something about your posts.
From what I can decipher: How does concentration aura or partial spiritual focus have anything to do with maximum pushback?
Originally Posted by incogn.egro.ito
I think what you and many other Paladins are failing to recognize, is that Paladins still are hybrids. At the end of the day that is all it boils down too.
Thank you for your opinion at what "we" fail at. Please explain to me how much "hybrid" functionality you can accomplish as a ret paladin in arena.
Throwing an incredibly pathetic low yield heal from an incredibly finite, non refilling mana bar means losing the match 99% of the time.
Hybrid on paper does not mean hybrid in practice. It's not here that recognition is failing.
(Disclaimer: This is for how it is now in TBC, any changes done from acquiring sheath, melee haste/crit -> spell haste/crit in wotlk can make all this void).
Just as an anecdote, our first Kara raid consisted of 4 (!) paladins - 2 holy + 2 prots, feral for dps and clutch offtank, hunter, rogue, mage, and 2 warlocks. So not only did we not have any warriors we had no priests either. With this group we didn't wipe to a boss and got all server firsts until Curator, although I think we did wipe to those skeleton sentries on the way to the opera. We didn't choose this group it was just the first bunch of people that levelled and got attuned. Of course it's the easiest part of Kara and who cares, but I don't expect Naxx 2.0 to be tightly tuned either - that would be spider wing, Raz and Noth. With Curator level of tuning starting at Patchwork and Loatheb, and Netherspite and Aran complexities at whatever is left of the horsemen. The tightly tuned stuff like sunwell is quite a ways off, I just hope it is tuned unlike the burning crusade start, and if they feel at that point one or another class scales too well or too poorly they'll change that for sure.
And the situation you describe is largely the direction Blizzard seems to be taking the raid games. They've said it clearly that they're no long designing bosses with the assumption of any specific class being present, which is a reflection the homogenization you're seeing in class design.
To add to your anecdote, my (years behind) guild has, on more than one occasion, run Kara with 7/10 of the raid being hunters or paladins...
Inadvertently a cold-blooded water-breathing vertebrate with a mood disorder.
Fiola. He's a ret paladin wanting to throw an occasional heal in arena. You're discussing HPS.
??
I seem to recall that there was something said along the lines of altering the talent to provide something more usefull now that the spell pushback was set on "DR". Perhaps illumination is not a bad idea once we see what it is.
I'm having a real hard time reading this, please do something about your posts.
From what I can decipher: How does concentration aura or partial spiritual focus have anything to do with maximum pushback?
Maximum a spell can be pushed back is 1.00 seconds with 0% pushback resistance, every percent of pushback resistance reduces that maximum by 0.01 seconds. So if you have 50% resistance and you get hit twice that's for quarter of a second each.
Maximum a spell can be pushed back is 1.00 seconds with 0% pushback resistance, every percent of pushback resistance reduces that maximum by 0.01 seconds. So if you have 50% resistance and you get hit twice that's for quarter of a second each.
How exactly are you translating "x% chance to not lose casting time" to "reduces the maximum time lost from pushbacks by x%"?
Maximum a spell can be pushed back is 1.00 seconds with 0% pushback resistance, every percent of pushback resistance reduces that maximum by 0.01 seconds. So if you have 50% resistance and you get hit twice that's for quarter of a second each.
Is that how it works? I thought 50% pushback resistance would give you a 50% chance to not be pushed back on each hit.
Fiola. He's a ret paladin wanting to throw an occasional heal in arena. You're discussing HPS.
??
Why must everything be so hard and require "spelling out the obvious".
Generally (not necessarily directed at you Fiola) it's starting to feel like a one-upsmanship contest at the cost of actually saying something useful.
If every heal you toss out is delayed by 1 second, then you're going to spend more time standing there, casting. That means you spend less time doing damage, closing distance on melee targets, and putting pressure on your opponents. It also gives your opponents more time to react, to use interrupts, stuns, or a MS effect.
For the same amount of healing done, you might end up standing still for 40~67% longer if you don't have spiritual focus. Do you think that's relevant to Arena PvP?
Yes, it's obvious, but I think the difference is significant enough that combat healers will want to pick up healing focus, new pushback mechanics or no.
Additionally, if I understand the new mechanics correctly, partial pushback resistance means that the talent will *always* do something. 70% pushback resistance will reduce the cast time penalty from 1 second to 0.3 seconds; a 20% increase to FoL and a 10~% increase for HL. That's pretty different from the current state of things, where 70% pushback resistance means you still have a 30% chance to lose 1 second of cast time per hit.
*this could also give value to speccing 4/5 Spiritual Focus, since when combined with Conc Aura, you get 56+35 = 91% pushback resistance; a penalty of 0.1 seconds if focus'd. Another alternative is 3/5 SF + iCA for 92% pushback resistance.
Thank you for your opinion at what "we" fail at. Please explain to me how much "hybrid" functionality you can accomplish as a ret paladin in arena.
Throwing an incredibly pathetic low yield heal from an incredibly finite, non refilling mana bar means losing the match 99% of the time.
Hybrid on paper does not mean hybrid in practice. It's not here that recognition is failing.
(Disclaimer: This is for how it is now in TBC, any changes done from acquiring sheath, melee haste/crit -> spell haste/crit in wotlk can make all this void).
Hybrid functionality in my opinion has always been about "support". Ret Paladins have "viable" 2v2 teams, it is just really hard currently in TBC. I think Blizzard will fix that. I think there will be a strong increase in the strength of traditional Ret comps, Ret/Rogue and Ret/Mage. I do not forsee Ret/Xhealer being viable due to what the Ret Paladin lacks. What I do not see is this being a weakness. None of the Hybrid classes currently have viable Hybrid/Healer comps because they all lack something and I do think it is fair that it is like this. Once a class is able to play X/Healer in a 2v2 comp it is a clear statement that that class brings all the tools needed to DPS, Snare, Interrupt and Protect its particular healer. If you look at all the classes that do this, they are all PURELY dps classes. They do nothing but deal damage each in their own ways, but that is ALL they can provide.
Shamans purge is NOT a healing debuff. It is a dispell of HoTing affects. Mortal Strike and Wound poison are healing debuffs.
Originally Posted by Questioner
There is one raid buff that a holy paladin cannot obtain in the protection tree while still being able to invest 51 points in holy. Judgements of the Just. Which is a debuff that can be done by at least THREE other classes.
Edit: Please, just show me a raid with a 8 healers and a prot paladin that has more synergy than one without, because by all accounts I can't put one together.
Lets go with the hypothetical that you bring 3 Paladins. Each of these Paladins are spec'd into their IMP blessing or Talent as well as their IMP aura from their particular tree.
Holy would bring 50% spell knockback ignore and 30% reduction on silence and interrupt affects as well over 100mp5 with Imp Wisdom.
Prot Pally would being 3% increased raid healing, Kings, and possibly of his thunderclap like talent.
Ret Pally would bring 450 AP with Imp Might, 3% crit to a target and 2% increased raid damage.
Every class has access to all 3Blessings if they need it. Enhancement Shamans, Ret Paladins, even Holy Paladins gets bonues to having might due to judgement changes.
This is not including the more "subtle" buffs that are provided to Paladins through Glyphs, Kings giving more AP, Might giving spell damage and wisdom's hotting affect.
Fiola, the term "HPS" in the context of throwing an occasional heal as ret in arena does not exist.
"If every heal you toss out is delayed by 1 second". As a ret in arena you'll rarely if ever throw out a heal, otherwise something is severly wrong (and this is not pre-TBC battlegrounds where the opposite was true).
In the rare event that you throw a heal, it will be 1 second lost over 5-10 minutes worth of match, yea sounds pretty worthless to me.
Where's everyone getting these new pushback resistance mechanics? Source? I haven't seen anything officially announce or data mined yet.
Originally Posted by incogn.egro.ito
Hybrid functionality in my opinion has always been about "support". Ret Paladins have "viable" 2v2 teams, it is just really hard currently in TBC. I think Blizzard will fix that.
Well I'd be cautious about throwing out such heavy wording as "what you and others fail to realize" if it's only based on what you "think Blizzard will fix".
Current situation (as has been for the past year+ of TBC): A ret paladin is as much a hybrid as a rogue in arena (read: not).
Possible future situation: Yea there's hopes now if JotW and sheath stay the same. This wasn't what you were talking about however.
08/15/08, 5:14 PM
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