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Old 08/02/08, 2:32 PM   #1351
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Khaelarys View Post
All I'm disagreeing with is the reasoning that Ret needs this ability more than other specs so much that by making it baseline our 5 man chances are hurt.
Oh, baseline Repentance certainly wouldn't hurt anyone's chances at getting into a 5-man. But it's not something the other specs need, as healers and tanks aren't expected to provide CC the way dps are.

And Repentance is still quite a bit better than the CC any other healer has: Five usable categories of mob, no cast time, a duration equal to its cooldown, and it's a true incapacitation. All of the other healer CCs have weaknesses in one or more of those categories.

And tanks have no broadly effective CC's; if 51-Prot paladins could have Repentance they'd be hands-down better than any other tank for 5-mans.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 08/02/08, 3:00 PM   #1352
bellator
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
I've read on other forums people claiming they've changed judgements so that they dont refresh on melee hit. In case anyone has seen this, just to let you know judgements are currently bugged. Neither melee nor CS are refreshing them.

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Old 08/02/08, 3:04 PM   #1353
Selenia
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
I misread the above post. Can this be deleted?

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Old 08/02/08, 3:32 PM   #1354
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I've read on other forums people claiming they've changed judgements so that they dont refresh on melee hit. In case anyone has seen this, just to let you know judgements are currently bugged. Neither melee nor CS are refreshing them.
That actually wouldn't be a surprising change if it's intended. Considering how much easier it is to keep a judgement up now, losing the refresh-on-melee effect wouldn't hurt a lot.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 08/02/08, 3:36 PM   #1355
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by Cathela View Post
That actually wouldn't be a surprising change if it's intended. Considering how much easier it is to keep a judgement up now, losing the refresh-on-melee effect wouldn't hurt a lot.
Losing the CS refresh would hurt a lot. It's pretty assuredly a bug.

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Old 08/02/08, 3:39 PM   #1356
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Losing the CS refresh would hurt a lot. It's pretty assuredly a bug.
Oh right, I was referring to the melee-refresh effect for your own judgements.

Although, given how easy it is for any spec to keep judgements up now, and how every spec has motivation to do so, they may be planning to give CS a new utility effect entirely.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 08/02/08, 3:44 PM   #1357
Rustik
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Elune
Or maybe just make it HIT harder. As has been mentioned, considering it's really nothing more than a gimped MS that requires 10 more talent points, it could use some love. Maybe boost the extra damage by a tiny bit or make the extra damage holy damage. Hell if they'd changed art of war to "Crusader strike also smites the target for holy damage equal to 10/20/30% of your spellpower" I would have been content.

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Old 08/02/08, 3:57 PM   #1358
bellator
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Just out of interest has anyone put together any decent ret cycle?

On the Prot side, with shield and hammer being on 6sec CD, HS usable on a 9sec CD, and slackening Judgement and Consecration to 9 seconds, everything cells so nicely into an 18second cycle.

With Ret though having DS on 10 second CD, you have a 6,8,10 sec ability. Nothing seems to gel, and i cant seem to get any nice cycle down on paper i'm happy with

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Old 08/02/08, 4:24 PM   #1359
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by Rustik View Post
Or maybe just make it HIT harder. As has been mentioned, considering it's really nothing more than a gimped MS that requires 10 more talent points, it could use some love. Maybe boost the extra damage by a tiny bit or make the extra damage holy damage. Hell if they'd changed art of war to "Crusader strike also smites the target for holy damage equal to 10/20/30% of your spellpower" I would have been content.
CS is not MS. MS is a PvP utility. CS is a PvE utility. There is nothing alike about them except that they are instant weapon attacks.

CS's utility is fine. It now allows a single ret pally to keep up a holy pally's judgements during the "downtime" when a holy pally doesn't want to be judging (between t=20 and t=30). It doesn't need any additional utility beyond that.

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Old 08/02/08, 4:29 PM   #1360
Aramul
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Just out of interest has anyone put together any decent ret cycle?

On the Prot side, with shield and hammer being on 6sec CD, HS usable on a 9sec CD, and slackening Judgement and Consecration to 9 seconds, everything cells so nicely into an 18second cycle.

With Ret though having DS on 10 second CD, you have a 6,8,10 sec ability. Nothing seems to gel, and i cant seem to get any nice cycle down on paper i'm happy with
I've been fiddling with a spread sheet for ret cycles. I've uploaded it to GoogleDocs. Sheet 1 contains the cycles which are not strictly worse than another cycle.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...Rztt1nUg&hl=en

Without real average damage numbers, it's impossible to tell which will be the best.

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Old 08/02/08, 5:11 PM   #1361
bellator
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
CS's utility is fine. It now allows a single ret pally to keep up a holy pally's judgements during the "downtime" when a holy pally doesn't want to be judging (between t=20 and t=30). It doesn't need any additional utility beyond that.
The one thing that I would like CS to do is that when it refreshes a non-ret JoW/L, it applies the ret-palas AP/SP to the jow/l proc. Other than that i agree, i'm perfectly happy with CS.

Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
I've been fiddling with a spread sheet for ret cycles. I've uploaded it to GoogleDocs. Sheet 1 contains the cycles which are not strictly worse than another cycle.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...Rztt1nUg&hl=en

Without real average damage numbers, it's impossible to tell which will be the best.
I've got a dps model up and running, so can run different rotations through it with ease. However my issue is that all those rotations you posted look messy. Please note this isnt a go at you for making messy rotations, just that the abilities and their cooldowns force messy rotations. Prot has a nice cleam 18 sec rotation with 3 HotR, 3 SotR, 2 cons, 2 HS, 2 Judgements. It all fits perfectly. The ret abilities just dont mesh as well.

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Old 08/02/08, 6:06 PM   #1362
Aramul
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
I've got a dps model up and running, so can run different rotations through it with ease. However my issue is that all those rotations you posted look messy. Please note this isnt a go at you for making messy rotations, just that the abilities and their cooldowns force messy rotations. Prot has a nice cleam 18 sec rotation with 3 HotR, 3 SotR, 2 cons, 2 HS, 2 Judgements. It all fits perfectly. The ret abilities just dont mesh as well.
Although the cycles look messy, they are all fairly easy to use. To use CS = DS > J for example, just hit Crusader Strike and Divine Storm as soon as they come up, while casting Judgement only when it won't interfere with the two above (just like we are using CS now).

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Old 08/02/08, 6:49 PM   #1363
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Honestly Ret cycles have never been pretty. In all respects we'll be using the same system we are now (priority cooldowns) except with Divine Storm equal to or above CS.

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Old 08/02/08, 7:14 PM   #1364
bellator
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Originally Posted by Aramul View Post
Although the cycles look messy, they are all fairly easy to use. To use CS = DS > J for example, just hit Crusader Strike and Divine Storm as soon as they come up, while casting Judgement only when it won't interfere with the two above (just like we are using CS now).
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr View Post
Honestly Ret cycles have never been pretty. In all respects we'll be using the same system we are now (priority cooldowns) except with Divine Storm equal to or above CS.
For maximum dps i would guess prioritising CS over DS may work out the best. Whilst the DS hit will be greater than the CS hit, since CS is 6 sec and Ds is 10 sec, delaying DS for 1 second will result in a smaller dps loss than delaying CS for 1 second (ofcourse if its a case of delaying DS for 2 sec or CS for 1 sec in the rotation, then things might be different). Will look at the posted rotations and stick them in the model see what it comes up with.

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Old 08/02/08, 7:50 PM   #1365
Khaelarys
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Lightninghoof
Are we assuming our mana will let us include DS in a ret cycle?

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