"What would be the point if a retribution paladin is just as good as every rogue in arena and on top of it refills mana and brings his secondary skills along? Think about it, you are playing a class which can walk around the corner to the trainer and comes back as a "new class", e.g. tank and/or healer, which is still an important point in class balance discussion in my opinion.
In the end it would all come down to:"Hey, why should I play warrior or even a rogue, they can only dps/tank or even only dps, while a paladin is able to fulfill every role in the game, in PVE and PVP and brings some amazing secondary benefits." Automatically, all classes that can´t heal/tank would be much less fun."
-Lockdown-
You have a point, a well voiced point by many posters on many forums but how well does that logic stand up to how players choose their class?
Rogues can only dps, yes, but they can go "around the corner" and dps a completely different way. Why as a dps minded player would u want to go with any other class than that?
Paladins have one dps option and a somewhat gimped one at that. Unacceptable.
As far as secondary skills go Id say, the toolkit, outside of dps, a Rogue gets is excellent and would be reason enough to choose the class over others even if they didnt have the convenience of different spec options.
My point is I simply cannot continue to hear all of these "zomg no one will play rogue/war is ret gets good" comments anymore. Allthough the point is there it is not sharp enough to keep people from playing the other niches rogues/wars inhabit even if ret was exactly like either one. Wont happen.
I kept queing for practice arenas last week and more than half of my partners were Rogues all night long. Too many damn rogues; cant ret play too?
If Ret is not made to hold its own in its melee role lolret will never go away. And I dont think fixing Ret will break other classes or eliminate their role, it would simply add some variation.
What Blizzard is trying to do with DKs and warriors for example, e.g. making every specc good at DPS _and_ tanking, really contradicts the 'rpg-idea' of "specializing" in a given set of talents, be it tanking, dpsing or healing.
What are talents good for if basically every class should be able to fulfill their potential roles regardless of specc? This is much more true for dps/tank speccs than the healing-hybrids, but I think this should be a valid point in future class discussion. The basic intent of making the game more fun (e.g. through making the important part of tanking more fun so that the number of tanks increases) seems like a good idea on first glance, but rumors tell that the road to hell is also paved with good intentions. j/k
Talents aren't just about specializing your capabilities; they're also about specializing your playstyle. For paladins, Ret is the two-hander tree, Prot is the sword-and-board tree, and Holy is the caster tree. A player who puts his points into Ret probably wants to do more damage, but I'd bet he also wants to feel more like a claymore-wielding holy avenger. Whereas a holy player wants to feel like a battlefield cleric who calls on the powers of the light to heal his comrades and smite his foes, and a prot paladin wants to be the invincible guardian who can survive a concerted attack from a horde of enemies.
And from what I've seen so far, this is something the developers really got right in WotLK. Everyone gets the same set of baseline seals, blessings, heals, etc, and the talent trees only add a few spells per tree and mostly just strengthen some others. But the end result is that each tree leads to vastly different playstyles.
In the beta I'm really finding for the first time that Prot and Ret actually make the paladin feel like a melee class. As much as I love playing a paladin in groups and raids, I've always found that my warrior alt feels better to fight with. Playing a warrior I get a very visceral feeling of "beating shit up" that I've never gotten with a paladin until now. Ret and Prot are really capturing that feeling for me now, so much so that I'm starting to wonder if I'll ever even want to level my warrior in WotLK.
Ret plays a lot like an arms warrior now. Obviously CS and DS feel similar to MS/WW, but JotW also gives kind of a feeling of rage mechanics, especially when you're soloing. After awhile, you stop thinking about mana as a bar that goes down until you drink. It becomes a pool that you can burn up pretty quickly if you want, but it's also being constantly refilled, and if you run low you just throttle back the damage a bit until the bar goes back up.
Holy is totally different. For soloing, it starts off like a caster with a 30-yard judgement pull followed by a shock and then goes into melee after that. More like an elemental shaman than anything else I suppose.
Prot is... well, it's like Prot's always been, but more physical-feeling and more fun. It's not really like a prot warrior; you can play it that way if you want, but it really works best if you pull a a small group of mobs at once. It's like old prot grinding, but you get a lot more active things to do to hurt the mobs instead of just turtling yourself up and waiting for them to kill themselves on holy shield. (I'm going to do a longer post tomorrow on prot soloing.)
This has been kind of a ramble and it's gotten off the point, but basically what I'm trying to say is that spec choice in WotLK isn't just about what your character can do, it's about how it feels to play. I think it's good that they're nudging the class a bit back towards the hybrid "center" and giving all specs better cross-role abilities, and also a good thing that the talent trees are really diversifying the feel of the class as well as its abilities.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
All I´m saying is that I think it´s really not creative or good for the game if every class had the same abilities with different names, numbers and some little flavour to them. I think it´s perfectly acceptable to have some shortcomings in PVP-DPS, when you´re fairly capable in other areas, say PVP-healing, PVE-healing, PVE-DPS or tanking. Also, you should think about what a paladin brings into a raid or arena team: blessings, hands and judgements.
What would be the point if a retribution paladin is just as good as every rogue in arena and on top of it refills mana and brings his secondary skills along? Think about it, you are playing a class which can walk around the corner to the trainer and comes back as a "new class", e.g. tank and/or healer, which is still an important point in class balance discussion in my opinion.
In the end it would all come down to:"Hey, why should I play warrior or even a rogue, they can only dps/tank or even only dps, while a paladin is able to fulfill every role in the game, in PVE and PVP and brings some amazing secondary benefits." Automatically, all classes that can´t heal/tank would be much less fun.
As long as there are 9 other classes, one given class just can´t be the king in everything, vs. all classes, in every role, in every aspect of the game. Compare this to the live version: It´s fine for me to be totally destroyed by every priest that knows what mana burn is, as long as I can beat a warrior with both hands tied to my back (exaggeration, but you get the point). It´s ok to want some little buffs to make some things less painful (AoE healing or healing while on the move anyone?), but as long as it´s not vanilla WoW again, we all should be grateful. You should be aware that paladins (and most hybrids) are already complaining on a very, very high level since they´ve come a very long way since release.
You're overstepping the issue again. The discussion was about Paladins getting a snare, and how you managed to twist that into making Paladins the kings of every role, I have no idea.
A previous post conveyed the idea fairly well. It's not about playing a class, it's about playing a spec, especially when it comes down to being competitive. Retribution Palaidns and Holy Paladins might as well be separate classes, because a Hybrid's spec is as definitive to their role as choosing any other class.
The reason you're seeing hybrids with increased concerns is because hybrids aren't going to exist in WotLK. At level 80, Feral Druids will have very little in common with Balance Druids, Enhancement Shaman will have little in common with Restoration Shaman, and Retribution Paladins will have little in common with Holy Paladins. Players can't half-ass their spec's and expect to be competitive in their roles. If players want to adopt a melee playstyle, they're going to end up spending every possible point to complement that role.
Tackling your doomsday prophecies, if I were to specifically ask if giving Retribution Paladins a snare would cause every Warrior and Rogue to stop playing their class and make Paladins because Paladins would now be the kings of everything vs. all classes, in every role, in every aspect of the game, what would your response be?
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
The damage shown was based on all CDs and item procs being stacked. Those numbers will not be seen every 8 seconds.
You can't have something that scales at a 0.6AP coefficient and not have this happen. A friend of mine was testing on beta the other day (I am still lacking an invite) and he stated pretty clearly that he feels there is rather little difference between 1 handed and 2 handed damage. There's a good reason for it. Judgements are a disproportionate amount of damage right now compared to everything else.
Stunned Judgement of Command would be much better just increasing the damage done by 25% and having a +100% crit rate rather than this double stacking stuff when it is stunned. Reduce the AP coefficient on Judgements to 0.12 reducing the overall AP coefficient on the base Judgement to 0.294 and let the weapon damage coefficient do the rest. Then readd the 40% spell power coefficient to Crusader Strike and the two abilities will be more or less on par.
After that, they can look at making Seal of Wisdom/Light/Justice more user friendly and maybe add some of that utility everyone is clamouring for.
Its not a old set bonus, it is THE arena healing set bonus. I was assuming that the next season, be it 5 or what ever they want to call it, would also continue to have the same set bonus.
Was a bit confusing when you linked S4 gear without mentioning you meant "future sets".
Anyway, with base power of Holy Shock in WotLK being much higher, I don't expect them to keep using this set bonus since the main idea of the bonus was to compensate for how wimpy Holy Shock is on TBC live.
In the event they are lazy and do re-use it, it will be one hell of an overpowered set bonus yes. Wait and see I guess.
Originally Posted by Lockdown
What would be the point if a retribution paladin is just as good as every rogue in arena and on top of it refills mana and brings his secondary skills along? Think about it, you are playing a class which can walk around the corner to the trainer and comes back as a "new class", e.g. tank and/or healer, which is still an important point in class balance discussion in my opinion.
I'm not sure if anyone on this or any other forum actually suggested that.
End of the day there's class flavors. If your paladin suddenly gets a charge, you still need someone to offer the utility of interrupts, MS and slowing stuff down. Same applies if we get any one of these abilities.
How exactly are you going from "hey maybe we can get a charge 'or' interrupt" to "oh my god rogues will never get groups again :'("?
[....]
Ret plays a lot like an arms warrior now. Obviously CS and DS feel similar to MS/WW, but JotW also gives kind of a feeling of rage mechanics, especially when you're soloing. After awhile, you stop thinking about mana as a bar that goes down until you drink. It becomes a pool that you can burn up pretty quickly if you want, but it's also being constantly refilled, and if you run low you just throttle back the damage a bit until the bar goes back up.
[....]
Prot is... well, it's like Prot's always been, but more physical-feeling and more fun. It's not really like a prot warrior; you can play it that way if you want, but it really works best if you pull a a small group of mobs at once. It's like old prot grinding, but you get a lot more active things to do to hurt the mobs instead of just turtling yourself up and waiting for them to kill themselves on holy shield. (I'm going to do a longer post tomorrow on prot soloing.)
[....]
I would like to 'react' on those 2 points :
- I LOVE your analogy to rage. It's exactly what would make Ret Paladin so much fun ... just not to stuggle because of so little manapool ! Thanks for telling so well what I thought a while ago ... without the correct wording ^^
- I'll read with a great pleasure your tomorrow review on prot soloing I think we'll still miss some mana regen and I hope I'm wrong. I'd love some Mana-regen based on prot stat (for example on blocking (with Holy Shield ??) ... few% of blocked damage coming into our manapool throught an enhanced version of Spiritual Attunment).
All I´m saying is that I think it´s really not creative or good for the game if every class had the same abilities with different names, numbers and some little flavour to them. I think it´s perfectly acceptable to have some shortcomings in PVP-DPS, when you´re fairly capable in other areas, say PVP-healing, PVE-healing, PVE-DPS or tanking. Also, you should think about what a paladin brings into a raid or arena team: blessings, hands and judgements.
Here is the thing: If a paladin is good at PVE tanking, how does that have anything whatsoever to do with their PVP dps abilities? If Blizzard decides to make paladins gimp at PVP dps, the only thing that does is means that no paladin gets to compete at anything like high level arena play. It doesn't change the PVE tank, it doesn't affect other players playing rogues, and it doesn't make the class more 'balanced'. It simply makes sure that someone who plays a paladin as their main has to level an alt if they want to pvp as a dpser. Why is that a good thing?
If Blizzard makes sure that all trees can be competitive in PVP and PVE (A tremendous challenge, obviously) then the determining factor of success becomes the skill of the player. Choosing a proper spec, gemming/enchanting correctly, playing well and practising become the things that determine success, rather than a class choice made semi randomly 4 years ago. If all trees were reasonably balanced then you could see any class represented at top level play in PVE or PVP, which marginalizes no one! Rogues can still play, warriors can still play, everyone can play and succeed if they are skilled enough.
Granted it is exceptionally difficult to make all trees PVP worth (paladin prot tree anyone?) but I don't think anyone here is suggesting that every single tree has to be viable. The changes required to make prot viable would be so massive and require such a total overhaul that it seems not worth doing or asking for. The changes to make ret more PVP viable are simple, straightforward and easy to implement.
Everyone knows that retribution paladins bring more than dps to the table. Mana return, hands, clease, blessings, bubble, mediocre heals and stuns are all very relevant. The people posting here are not asking for stealth, MS, Kick, Hamstring and CloS. They are asking to be given something from the interrupt, snare, healing debuff group to make it possible to bring a ret paladin as your dpser. It is possible that with just a snare ret paladins would be fine, it might take us getting a MS effect attached to CS. Whatever it takes, people here are asking for paladins to get just enough of those things to be considered a choice when compared to a rogue. We aren't asking to be the only choice, just one of them, and that isn't going to send the rogues packing or cause a mass reroll. It will simply allow paladins who wish to PVP dps at a high level to do so without rerolling themselves.
Just wanted to let everyone know that this is my first post, so be gentle (Crosses fingers)
I have been a reader here for a while and try to keep up with this thread as best I can. I will admit that some of the numbers are a little confusing for me. My main toon is a holy pally and was getting worried about speccing when the xpac comes out. I am leaning more towards the 43/0/28 build with SoL.
I have been thinking that the main goal for this build is to get your attack power up in order to get your spell power up. I have been looking at gear and the best I can come up with is down-grading to mail to get items like:
Notice that these items have +Int, +Sta, and +Att Power
After looking at some of these items, I noticed that almost all items in the game have +Sta. I started building more, I then noticed that in the Prot field, there is the "Touched by the Light" ability. Would it be beneficial to build a "Healer" by applying a 0/43/28 build? I know there are some key characteristics missing from the Holy field, but wouldn't that be made up through the increased spell power in TbtL and SoL?
Someone with 1000 Sta would get a +300 Spell Power, and a person geared properly wouldn't be hard to get 1200-1500 which is +360 - 450 Spell Power. This would be about +750 Spell Power. This may seem somewhat low, but you would also be getting the increase Sta + DPS aspect of this build.
Please let me know if this build is adequate or would be used at all?
Like I said, this is my first post, but do what you need to do...
Recount is working in Beta and I ran some instances to see where my DPS landed up with all the new changes.
Unfortunately the instances are not tuned to a 5man group full of people in t6/sunwell gear, so the bosses died too quickly to get a decent sample size.
There is definately a dps increase, but it's an increase that puts my dps in line with other classes at my same gear lvl. If there is some way to bring down our burst, without nerfing our dps I'd be for it. Otherwise the only problem is the pvp aspect of ret.
We've been given insane burst instead of a snare/interrupt/ms. I'm getting destroyed by elemental shamans/mages and other ranged powerhouses who can surprise me from range, or kite me for a few seconds.
The comment regarding our mana bar feeling like a rage bar is spot on. I'm loving the new feeling of ret in WotLK and it makes it really hard to go back to live.
Just wanted to let everyone know that this is my first post, so be gentle (Crosses fingers)
I have been a reader here for a while and try to keep up with this thread as best I can. I will admit that some of the numbers are a little confusing for me. My main toon is a holy pally and was getting worried about speccing when the xpac comes out. I am leaning more towards the 43/0/28 build with SoL.
If you are using gear with attack power or stacking stamina and you want to be a healer, you are doing it wrong.
The only thing that could be useful is using Blessing of Might over Blessing of Wisdom.
43/0/28 seems like a fine spec now, but there will be another Holy Paladin pass that may change stuff.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
After looking at some of these items, I noticed that almost all items in the game have +Sta. I started building more, I then noticed that in the Prot field, there is the "Touched by the Light" ability. Would it be beneficial to build a "Healer" by applying a 0/43/28 build? I know there are some key characteristics missing from the Holy field, but wouldn't that be made up through the increased spell power in TbtL and SoL?
It's an interesting idea, but you'd be missing Illumination, which significantly reduces your longevity. You might be able to have high throughput with stacking TbtL and SoL (maybe, we'd have to look at actual numbers) but I think not having Illumination will cause you to burn through mana too fast.
Just wanted to let everyone know that this is my first post, so be gentle (Crosses fingers)
I have been a reader here for a while and try to keep up with this thread as best I can. I will admit that some of the numbers are a little confusing for me. My main toon is a holy pally and was getting worried about speccing when the xpac comes out. I am leaning more towards the 43/0/28 build with SoL.
I have been thinking that the main goal for this build is to get your attack power up in order to get your spell power up. I have been looking at gear and the best I can come up with is down-grading to mail to get items like:
Notice that these items have +Int, +Sta, and +Att Power
After looking at some of these items, I noticed that almost all items in the game have +Sta. I started building more, I then noticed that in the Prot field, there is the "Touched by the Light" ability. Would it be beneficial to build a "Healer" by applying a 0/43/28 build? I know there are some key characteristics missing from the Holy field, but wouldn't that be made up through the increased spell power in TbtL and SoL?
Someone with 1000 Sta would get a +300 Spell Power, and a person geared properly wouldn't be hard to get 1200-1500 which is +360 - 450 Spell Power. This would be about +750 Spell Power. This may seem somewhat low, but you would also be getting the increase Sta + DPS aspect of this build.
Please let me know if this build is adequate or would be used at all?
Like I said, this is my first post, but do what you need to do...
Putting on str gear unfortunately won't be great. Getting spellpower itemized onto your gear is much better than str or AP because you only get 30% of AP to SP, so you are definately better off just using regular healing gear. The spellpower you gain from going heavy prot is absolutely not worth it because you lose out on the crit bonuses and % healing bonuses (among other things) from holy. A build with 48/23 holy/ret looks fine, whether or not it is the best is debatable.
AP and strength (ret) gear for holy/sheath build will fall short of dedicated healing gear on spellpower. You could gear like that to get stronger judgments meaning more mana returned from judgments of wise, but it's hardly worth it. And what if you spec out of sheath now all your gear is useless. Only healing gear benefiting specifically from sheath would be gear with typical holy stats - spellpower, int, mp5 and strength on top of that. Look at Field Marshal's Aegis (the level 60 rank 13 gear.) There's no gear like that left at 70 though.
With touched by light you're going to give up far more than you'll gain. Full divine intellect and holy guidance just about get you what touched by light will. Not to mention all the holy tools. It's very decidedly a prot talent, don't look at it unless you're tanking.
The comment regarding our mana bar feeling like a rage bar is spot on. I'm loving the new feeling of ret in WotLK and it makes it really hard to go back to live.
Is mana sharing of JotW working at all? If you were getting 20% back instead of 60% in that group, would you feel that way still?
AP and strength (ret) gear for holy/sheath build will fall short of dedicated healing gear on spellpower. You could gear like that to get stronger judgments meaning more mana returned from judgments of wise, but it's hardly worth it. And what if you spec out of sheath now all your gear is useless. Only healing gear benefiting specifically from sheath would be gear with typical holy stats - spellpower, int, mp5 and strength on top of that. Look at Field Marshal's Aegis (the level 60 rank 13 gear.) There's no gear like that left at 70 though.
With touched by light you're going to give up far more than you'll gain. Full divine intellect and holy guidance just about get you what touched by light will. Not to mention all the holy tools. It's very decidedly a prot talent, don't look at it unless you're tanking.
I'm almost positive this has been brought up before, but this is a great point Levk.
Let's look at Sheath of Light In order to reletively think about getting this ability, you must have a somewhat respectable attack power. There are 2 ways to increase this: Increase in Strength or + Attack Power items.
After looking at some of the new gear that is coming out, there is absolutely nothing that has +int, +str, +spell power. It's either +str, +AP OR +int, +SP. This would mean that there is almost no way for a "pure" holy pally to increase their attack power without getting +attack power gear, which would make the AP boost in SoL useless. We all know that Holy Pallies attack power is almost non-existant. An average top geared holy pally is around 500 AP or so. That would be +150 Spell Power. To break that down, that would be +150 spell power for 25 skill points?
After hearing some of the replies (BTW thank you for being nice), I would almost highly consider using a 51/20/0 or 52/19/0 build. This would play more towards the +SP, +int build.
Sorry to double back what I mentioned before, and thank you for clearing some of these things up.
Flyingtoastr brought this up before - sheath doesn't scale with holy gear, however your attack power in a raid setting as holy will be fairly healthy from buffs. You're in the neighborhood of 1500 AP from full raid buffs with zero attack power gear at 70. Basically, to me it looks like an outstanding lower gear build, but eventually sheath will be outstripped by the 2 points I'm missing from holy guidance in the 43/0/28 build I'm looking at.
Is mana sharing of JotW working at all? If you were getting 20% back instead of 60% in that group, would you feel that way still?
Thats a good point. However, the mana regen is massive right now, and other people have commented that ret will still be mana positive with current mana costs even with the split in JotW returns. I guess we have to wait and see if they rebalance the mana costs.
Divine storm is currently the only mana hog, unless you count consecrate. Speaking of consecrate I had it ticking for nearly 800 with AW up in an instance. I don't remember what other buffs I had at the time besides gear procs, might, and kings. There was a DK in the group.
I'm currently lvl 71 on the beta pvp server (Lich King)
This is exactly my experience when grouped with other sunwell level players. I'm doing more damage but it doesn't feel as drastic as when playing solo. Basically to me these changes make us more like other dps classes that don't require a perfect buff group to be competetive but in return don't scale as drastically with that buff group, this is a great change IMO.
Isn't the demise of downranking going to change our thinking about the relative value of spellpower stacking for healers, and thus reduce the predicted value of 43/0/28? Healing is a wonderful stat now partly because you can wring regeneration out of it by intelligently downranking.
Obviously, there is a lot we can't know about how it's going to look for sure, but you can't ensure that all of that extra +heal hits the throughput column anymore unless you wait until the bar is getting dangerously low. Unless your max rank FoL/HL wouldn't otherwise fill up the bar on any given cast, it seems like spellpower is going to lead to a heck of a lot of overhealing and not much more in WotLK. Doesn't this cut in favor of the flexibiilty of deep holy?
Has anyone tested tanking since the downranking changes? Downranking consecration is the only way I can keep from going OOM right away in all but the most damage heavy fights on live. Is it still possible to keep consecration up most of the time or is it now a once in a while thing? How is mana longevity overall as prot? I'll be very sad if all the fancy new abilities we get leave us drinking after every pull.
Divine storm is currently the only mana hog, unless you count consecrate. Speaking of consecrate I had it ticking for nearly 800 with AW up in an instance. I don't remember what other buffs I had at the time besides gear procs, might, and kings. There was a DK in the group.
With the changes to downranking and the larger base cost, it seems to me as a Prot Pally that consecrate is going to go from something we always use (at various ranks) to something that is only worthwhile when there are numerous (4+) mobs. Blizzard has stated (if I remember correctly) there are going to be less 6+ pulls than there were in TBC and with Hammer of the Righteous hitting 3 targets, consecrate may not be necessary.
Can anyone in the beta speak to how they're using consecrate for tanking, if they're having enough mana, or if it is just unnecessary with the threat changes and using Hammer of the Righteous?
Last edited by Solyna-Terenas : 08/20/08 at 4:21 PM.
Reason: Spelling is hard.
The downranking changes mean you don't downrank with any spec of Paladin.
If consecration is usable is depending on how JotW will work (currently gives all the mana to you, but the tooltip says it will share mana to your group).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Using full PVP Ret gear and a 2 hander this could be a tough as nails healer with some bite.
The main focus of the spec is using SoL and TbtL to get a decent amount of spell power and JotW to make up for the small mana pool.
Using high crit gear would maximize the secondary effects of SoL and TbtL while still being able to deal decent damage in full Ret gear with the 2 hander.
Most of the filler talents are aimed at survival but you could go into reckoning to add some dps potential.
It feels like it could be effective but I'd like more input to see if I'm missing anything that would break this concept altogether.
You're not an attractive target, deep prot talents for burst proof survivability is a moot point.
EDIT:
Originally Posted by Compton2
Isn't the demise of downranking going to change our thinking about the relative value of spellpower stacking for healers, and thus reduce the predicted value of 43/0/28? Healing is a wonderful stat now partly because you can wring regeneration out of it by intelligently downranking.
Obviously, there is a lot we can't know about how it's going to look for sure, but you can't ensure that all of that extra +heal hits the throughput column anymore unless you wait until the bar is getting dangerously low. Unless your max rank FoL/HL wouldn't otherwise fill up the bar on any given cast, it seems like spellpower is going to lead to a heck of a lot of overhealing and not much more in WotLK. Doesn't this cut in favor of the flexibiilty of deep holy?
On the contrary, you'll have to share spellpower item budget with longetivity much more carefully. Any free amount you get will worth that much more.
EDIT2:
More on Skyleth and Dacrusha's build; if you're thinking of healing and picking up touched by light for spellpower for healing, full divine intellect and holy guidance give more than sacred duty, expertise, and touched by light. Stamina is cheaper than intellect, but intellect is also more useful. You could go for a build like that if you're looking to offtank in raids or something and give decent heals in the offtimes, but your sustainability won't be half of what you'd get by speccing 43 holy. Pvp I don't see it working at all, cleave teams are relying on burst primarily and they'll never pick plate. If you mean as a battleground build, lack of spiritual focus will hurt you.
08/20/08, 3:29 AM
I think we'll still miss some mana regen and I hope I'm wrong. I'd love some Mana-regen based on prot stat (for example on blocking (with Holy Shield ??) ... few% of blocked damage coming into our manapool throught an enhanced version of Spiritual Attunment).
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