Ghostcrawler has come out and stated that the Vengeance change isn't an officially sanctioned one and is just a designer playing about. I believe Kalgan also stated mages are doing something like twice the damage they should be?
Ghostcrawler has come out and stated that the Vengeance change isn't an officially sanctioned one and is just a designer playing about. I believe Kalgan also stated mages are doing something like twice the damage they should be?
Here is the relevant text on Paladins, if anybody is curious. There's another interesting post here, too.
Digression:
Mages aren't really doing double the total damage that they should be. If I had to guess as to what Chilton was referring to, he was probably glossing over the details of the fact that Frostfire Bolt is currently "double dipping" on raid debuffs. Meaning, Curse of Elements and other such buffs are increasing FFB's damage by 21% (1.1 * 1.1) instead of the intended 10%.
Originally Posted by Akimara
Can anyone confirm if this is a nerf or not with the new changes to spellinterrupt and is it still viable to skill Improved Concentration?
This is just a global mechanics change. All spells, abilities, and talents that previously gave you a percentage chance to avoid pushback instead now reduce the effects of pushback by that same percentage. So now instead of giving raid members a 35% chance to avoid pushback, Concentration Aura makes it so that spells are only pushed back by 0.325s instead of 0.5s. The ability (and subsequently the talent) still have the same worth in today's build as it did in the one previous to it. If I had to guess I'd say Blizzard is making a big push to reduce a lot of unnecessary randomness in player abilities, in an effort to elevate the esport status of Arenas.
I wouldn't call explicitly label it a nerf or a buff straight off.
Spell pushback was changed such that the first and second damaging attack adds 0.5s to the cast time, then any succeeding attacks add nothing (until you cast a new spell).
The current pushback resistance mechanics is a little RNG dependent: you can resist 4 attacks, then the 70% fails and you get 0.5s pushback on the 5th attack, something like that.
The change to Concentration Aura makes it more consistent: You're always going to get pushed back, but you know just how much to expect.
A blue poster already confirmed that they would be moving pushback resistance mechanics to Concentration Aura's current format. It's likely that Conc Aura just got the change ahead of everyone else for some reason.
EDIT: Beaten by Theras, but were ALL pushback talents changed to this?
Beaten by Theras, but were ALL pushback talents changed to this?
According to MMO-Champion, Imp. Shadowform received this change, as did Earth Shield (you can see these listed on the front page, as well as the respective talent calculators). Those seem to be the only ones at the moment, so implementation is oddly spotty for now. Still, I think we can safely expect all other talents/abilities to do the same shortly.
Improved Lay on Hands is really fucking good:
Originally Posted by Malleus
Unless there's a reason to save it for a specific point in the fight, someone should be getting laid every single time it's up.
another point in favor of AP -> SP being baseline : blizzard would like loots not being usefull for only one class, one spec, ...
- BTW heal paladin stuff WILL only be used by Holy Paladin ... (prot and ret could take it as a offspec ...) but think about a healing stuff with SP, Str, crit, haste and gems .... as a Fury Warrior with a blue stuff ; wouldn't you take it if no healadin in the raid is interested in ? (in the same way we, as protadin, take stuff with Str from prot warrior ... we don't care about STR, it takes some ilevel ... but sometimes, worth it no ?)
-Opposite way, healadin could take ret ou /arm fury warrior stuff ... kind of great synergy isn't it ?
- Othe possibility : as a protadin, I often have to be there because we need 3 tanks for trashs or some boss ... but on other boss, 2 tanks are enough and we need another healer ... or another dps, ... I would like to take 1 prot stuff and 1 rethealadin stuff ^^ (being able to cast big enough heals while DPSing quite a bit ... STR, Crit, SP ... would be really great for this no ?)
I have a feeling that Blizzard does not want to screw around with the damage of judgments too much. I'm thinking that they WANT Judgment to be a large portion of our damage rather than the pin-prick it is now. The first change to this is Vengeance. Instead of hurting Judgment damage a lot, they decided to take away a small amount of damage from everything. I have a feeling the next hit will be to JoComm's stunned damage and that will be it for judgment work (unless I'm missing something glaring, and I probably am since I'm not on Beta as of yet).
As Avitus has mentioned, I really hope they don't over-nerf our damage (2 shotting people in a stun is nice and all, but we wont have that forever), and we definitely need more utility. 3% haste aura compared to 15% version? Sure they stack, but come on.....
I have a feeling that Blizzard does not want to screw around with the damage of judgments too much. I'm thinking that they WANT Judgment to be a large portion of our damage rather than the pin-prick it is now. The first change to this is Vengeance. Instead of hurting Judgment damage a lot, they decided to take away a small amount of damage from everything. I have a feeling the next hit will be to JoComm's stunned damage and that will be it for judgment work (unless I'm missing something glaring, and I probably am since I'm not on Beta as of yet).
As Avitus has mentioned, I really hope they don't over-nerf our damage (2 shotting people in a stun is nice and all, but we wont have that forever), and we definitely need more utility. 3% haste aura compared to 15% version? Sure they stack, but come on.....
I just wish they'd make up their mind. They can't tell us that they don't like us being quite so bursty, and then design a system which allows us to use 3 global cooldowns to deliver 90% of our entire damage output for a 10 second period.
Soo before we cry wolf, do we have any reliable dps tests? and on what? the only nummbers I seen myself is my own lvl 70
recount nummbers from 5 mans on beta.
Yes we have really strong burst at times if we set it up right and ppl dont trinket, but what else do we have? My warrior friend thats dual wielding cath and torch seems to do just as much dps or more than me in pve(and didnt they get buffed in the last build?).
atm Im guessing most of us are all going by the "feelings" we get from zomg big ret crit vids.
ps my arcane mage still put ret burst to shame
Really? How much burst can your mage put out? My highest is a 12k Judgement a few days ago while I was running Utgarde keep. It was a stun+JoC. I still have all my abilities to blow, like CS, DS, and HoW just incase you still have any health left after that. If I need to, I can do all that from the safety of my bubble.
I haven't had time to play on the beta lately, but I'm going to try putting up some WWS this weekend. I'll try run as many instances as I can.
What I really don't understand is why change something that is global to all our damage (Vengeance stacks) instead of addressing the actual issue of our burst damage. I'm hoping it's just a designer experimenting and that this change will be reverted as the link Theras posted indicates, since it really makes no sense to me.
Further, here's something I've been wondering about (from MMO fury warrior changes):
Rampage (Tier 9) completely changed: Your melee critical hits cause you to go on a rampage, increasing melee critical hit chance of all party and raid members within 20 yds by 5%. Lasts 10 sec.
The price of utility? So far fury warriors have been able to achieve amazing personal DPS by providing very little utility/buffs besides battle shout. With such an amazing raid wide buff, I wonder if they'll have to pay for it dps wise?
I'm watching more and more classes get group buffs I'm hoping this elevates ret paladins from the perpetual excuse that our damage is so much lower because of the buffs we give.
What I really don't understand is why change something that is global to all our damage (Vengeance stacks) instead of addressing the actual issue of our burst damage. I'm hoping it's just a designer experimenting and that this change will be reverted as the link Theras posted indicates, since it really makes no sense to me.
Further, here's something I've been wondering about (from MMO fury warrior changes):
The price of utility? So far fury warriors have been able to achieve amazing personal DPS by providing very little utility/buffs besides battle shout. With such an amazing raid wide buff, I wonder if they'll have to pay for it dps wise?
I'm watching more and more classes get group buffs I'm hoping this elevates ret paladins from the perpetual excuse that our damage is so much lower because of the buffs we give.
Their original statement was that they intended to make ret paladins more valuable in raids by giving them competetive dps. l'm assuming the Vengeance nerf was, as GC said, only temporary, 'cause it's pretty much counter to the issue that was producing most of the ret backlash (Judgements). Personally, I think the solution is to fix SoC judgements and then maybe wait for a healthy beta population to begin testing the tree at max level and then work on balancing out and scaling the damage.
Just give me all of the bacon and eggs you have. Wait, wait, I worry what you just heard was, “Give me a lot of bacon and eggs.” What I said was, “Give me ALL the bacon and eggs you have.” Do you understand?
Avitus: Considering the entire issue of 'consolidating buffs/debuffs' that Blizzard is going through, if Rampage makes it live, it probably won't stack with LotP.
Soo before we cry wolf, do we have any reliable dps tests? and on what? the only nummbers I seen myself is my own lvl 70
recount nummbers from 5 mans on beta.
I have no hard data yet. What I can say from my personal experience is that I'm easily killing same-level mobs before Judgement even finishes a single cooldown (well, when Judgement is working, that is). I'm doing this using an entirely "vanilla" ability rotation: just judge->CS->DS->hammer, and generally things are dead. I'm not stunning to get the extra JoC damage, I'm not using AW or trinkets.
Now as I said before I'm still outgearing stuff by a bit, and there's a difference between soloing and sustained raid dps, and I have no point of reference as to what Ret can do on live in this kind of gear. (Maybe I should use another copy to do a live-vs-beta test on the same mobs with the same gear.) But it feels really damn fast, and it's hard to experience it and not feel like something is at least a little overtuned.
Originally Posted by Prinsesa
EDIT: Beaten by Theras, but were ALL pushback talents changed to this?
The Spiritual Focus tooltip still has the old wording; I haven't tested yet to see how it's implemented. Right now it looks like a case of the build getting pushed out while the change was half-done.
Originally Posted by Avitus
What I really don't understand is why change something that is global to all our damage (Vengeance stacks) instead of addressing the actual issue of our burst damage. I'm hoping it's just a designer experimenting and that this change will be reverted as the link Theras posted indicates, since it really makes no sense to me.
That's kind of my sense of things. Like I've said, if you solo with a Ret paladin on beta, it feels really really fast. There's no testing data yet (I assume) but anyone's intuition says dps is probably too high. So in that position, it probably seems like a good idea to just knock 5% off of Ret dps before the hard testing begins, on the theory that that'll be starting from something closer to where we want to be anyway.
Like I said before, this isn't the first time they've tried this particular change to Vengeance, and they reverted it last time they tried it. Sounds like somebody just wants to try his idea again.
EDIT: On the plus side, HotR and DS are now properly doing holy damage.
Last edited by Cathela : 08/22/08 at 12:35 PM.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Like I said before, this isn't the first time they've tried this particular change to Vengeance, and they reverted it last time they tried it. Sounds like somebody just wants to try his idea again.
Probably right, and it just won't work. Not that scaling our damage back by 5% isn't warranted, but that isn't the place to do it, if only because public reaction to a vengeance nerf simply cannot go well. Your average player will see that they gave DKs a direct port of our talent in 'Bloody Vengeance' and then nerfed ours. That's a pretty good way to piss off a player base. A much better course to follow would be to simply tweak the scaling of our abilities - changes that most people won't quite notice.
Just give me all of the bacon and eggs you have. Wait, wait, I worry what you just heard was, “Give me a lot of bacon and eggs.” What I said was, “Give me ALL the bacon and eggs you have.” Do you understand?
I have no hard data yet. What I can say from my personal experience is that I'm easily killing same-level mobs before Judgement even finishes a single cooldown (well, when Judgement is working, that is). I'm doing this using an entirely "vanilla" ability rotation: just judge->CS->DS->hammer, and generally things are dead. I'm not stunning to get the extra JoC damage, I'm not using AW or trinkets.
This is in a zone tuned for level 68 quest geared right? I agree there's a difference between sustained dps and farming. I'm just curious, as opposed to how it feels like butter, have you observed other classes in similar gear to your own knocks through them?
I don't doubt for a moment that it feels over tuned - I'm just wondering if its because of what we've been taught to expect, or because you're killing mobs 2 for 1 that the other classes are killing.
Edit: I would bug you less if i ever got a frackin key.
1) Move Aura Mastery baseline. This is a good idea in any case.
2) Move Divine Favor to our 11-point Holy talent position and make it affect all spells and abilities capable of crits, including offensive spells and abilities. This makes DF somewhat but not very attractive for ret.
3) Insert new 21-point talent, Healing Trance or Harm to Heal or whatever you want to call it, that totally unlinks our ability to melee from our ability to cast, so that you can continue to swing even while chain-casting things with cast times.
Paladin healers now have every reason to be on the front lines, and our seal/judgment system actually works while you're doing what holy paladins do.
Oh, I just looked at the base values. I suppose I assumed that all the spells would scale at roughly the same rate with spellpower, but if paladin heals are scaling faster then that definitely changes the picture.
I knew FoL and HL were getting higher spellpower coefficients than we "expected" based on the +healing->spellpower conversion math, but I suppose I assumed this was just some new baseline Blizzard had set that would apply to all heals.
It's not that paladins are 'scaling faster', it's that the base spell is so much cheaper.
If I have a spell that costs 100 mana and you have one that costs 200, and they scale the same, but yours does more damage..
Toss on 2000 spellpower and we're doing roughly the same damage as each other, but my spell is still half the price.
Probably right, and it just won't work. Not that scaling our damage back by 5% isn't warranted, but that isn't the place to do it, if only because public reaction to a vengeance nerf simply cannot go well. Your average player will see that they gave DKs a direct port of our talent in 'Bloody Vengeance' and then nerfed ours. That's a pretty good way to piss off a player base. A much better course to follow would be to simply tweak the scaling of our abilities - changes that most people won't quite notice.
There's also the new Arms talent "Wrecking Crew".
100% chance on crit to Enrage, increasing damage by 15% for 12 seconds.
Avitus: Considering the entire issue of 'consolidating buffs/debuffs' that Blizzard is going through, if Rampage makes it live, it probably won't stack with LotP.
Sure. Can we have some of that non stacking utility? It feels to me like an excuse to have a cake and eat it too.
Originally Posted by Cathela
That's kind of my sense of things. Like I've said, if you solo with a Ret paladin on beta, it feels really really fast. There's no testing data yet (I assume) but anyone's intuition says dps is probably too high. So in that position, it probably seems like a good idea to just knock 5% off of Ret dps before the hard testing begins, on the theory that that'll be starting from something closer to where we want to be anyway.
I really hope we can stop this intuition business. If we're now assuming devs are going by intuition then it's a sad situation indeed. There's a multitude of tools out there, we really shouldn't start assuming they're going by "feel" and "intuition".
Originally Posted by Jessie
Probably right, and it just won't work. Not that scaling our damage back by 5% isn't warranted, but that isn't the place to do it, if only because public reaction to a vengeance nerf simply cannot go well. Your average player will see that they gave DKs a direct port of our talent in 'Bloody Vengeance' and then nerfed ours. That's a pretty good way to piss off a player base.
Can't agree enough with this. It's just typical bad handling. It goes even further when you notice they gave Arms warriors a far superior version of Vengeance in the same patch:
"Wrecking Crew (New talent)- Your melee critical hits have a 100% chance to Enrage you, increasing all damage caused by 15% for 12 sec."
Avitus: Er, surely you would prefer to have stacking utility rather than non-stacking utility? If what you provide works in addition to what everyone else provides (and currently, I believe that is the case), surely that is better for getting into raids than the alternative?
Let me be clear. I fully agree that Ret Paladins should not be gimped in their damage below other DPS specs/classes without solid reasoning. Currently, that reasoning seems to be.... absent, or at least, not being shared.
I was simply pointing out that Rampage looks so similar to Leader of the Pack that I would be very doubtful if both stacked. This would mean that, if personal DPS options were not available to them (and IIRC, it is not for Ferals, as LotP is required for Mangle), then they start competing for slots. At the same time, a Retribution Paladin's buffs (particularly the buffs from Retribution Aura, though perhaps not from Heart of the Crusader) do all stack with other sources. This would imply that the only competition that a Retribution Paladin would have for his slot is another Retribution Paladin.
Avitus: Er, surely you would prefer to have stacking utility rather than non-stacking utility? If what you provide works in addition to what everyone else provides (and currently, I believe that is the case), surely that is better for getting into raids than the alternative?
Let me be clear. I fully agree that Ret Paladins should not be gimped in their damage below other DPS specs/classes without solid reasoning. Currently, that reasoning seems to be.... absent, or at least, not being shared.
You're missing one vital detail. If we could compete DPS wise then I wouldn't say that, but that's not the case at the moment (I agree with the second part of your post).
Think about 10 man raids where it's less likely buffs will overlap. They'll be providing ridiculous personal DPS as well as high utility. In 25 man, they'll be taken for the personal DPS and Battleshout just as is now (that's assuming the 5% crit doesn't stack). It's the best of both worlds, a situation I wouldn't mind being in.
Utility should have a price, even if it doesn't stack.
Probably right, and it just won't work. Not that scaling our damage back by 5% isn't warranted, but that isn't the place to do it, if only because public reaction to a vengeance nerf simply cannot go well. Your average player will see that they gave DKs a direct port of our talent in 'Bloody Vengeance' and then nerfed ours. That's a pretty good way to piss off a player base. A much better course to follow would be to simply tweak the scaling of our abilities - changes that most people won't quite notice.
If such a change would anger the playerbase, it would be irrational anger. Who cares what other classes get, or if your specific ability is not as good as another classes' ability of the same type? The only thing that matters is the end viability of the class. Surely Blizzard shouldn't have to cater to people who are essentially yelling "They took our jobs!" when ultimately it couldn't matter any less as long as the class itself is up to par.
What do you guys think about making JoTW % based or otherwise fixed or maybe a mix?
Having it connected to total damage is a bit of a mess to analyze, because any time you tweak Judgments, or tweak scaling of AP/SP, you are sort of mathematically double-dipping into mana and sustained dps from JoTW. Also, gear matters: two dudes, one has great gear, one average, both with no int gear. Same mana pile, same costs, radically different .6x's coming back, radically different bursts they can do, thus compounding the difference in gear.
If we want to analyze mana economics, inflow and outflow, profit vs. loss, it's alot easier to observe the working in and out of a predictable return versus a return that is radically effected by the base power of judgments, their scaling, ie good gear verus average gear, etc.
The point of JoTW is to transform Ret mana to normalize it towards the Rage/Energy/Rune style of mechanic, and you need some degree of predictability.
Now... we could get a little clever here and say that JotW returns say x% of your base man + y% of the damage done. This allows for a little bonus for the super geared, but a degree of predictability.
Just some thoughts. I have stated elsewhere, under different hats, that to me, JotW is the fulcrum, the lynchpin talent of the Wotlk Ret.
The fury changes were a Christmas wishlist, I don't think a lot of people are going to spec arms in this state.
Warriors have a new ability Enraged Assault that's an instant consuming the enrage effect, so that vengeance in deep arms lets them use that more often. Wording on it is funny, "attack with all weapons." I can see people asking if weapons in your bags count.
EDIT: Noctivagant - it's same as the rage mechanics, before the rage changes at 60 there were the same scaling problems with warriors - crappy gear meant low rage and not being able to use abilities and as their gear improved their damage ramped up drastically since they jam more buttons. They tweaked that quite a bit, and it looks like they have good experience in that area now, if they feel they need to tweak this stuff I would have confidence in them on that point.
08/22/08, 6:19 AM
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