Ulgut

According to the first post in this thread 100 int gives you :

The 300 int proc will then grant:

• 1897*3=5691 more max mana (I dont know if you gain this as empty mana, meaning you just increase your max mana, or if you actally gain 5691 man. I would guess it just increases your max mana).
• The 5691 extra mana gives you 0.25*5691 = 1422 mana extra if you use Divine Plea during the proc.
• 25.3*3=75.9 Spellpower
• 0.759*3= 2,27 % Spellcrit

Given that the trinket according to wowhead:
If that is true then you can time almost every time it proc, combine it with useage of Divine Plea since that is also on a short cooldown.

I have not played holy pally that much in raids, but according to me this seems like a very balanced trinket, since it offers both mana, mana regen, spellpower and crit. Now I just want to know how much the cards cost so I can get one for my own pally

 

• frmorrison

4 piece isn't that great, just more overheal most of the time. I dropped 2 piece once I got epic Naxx items for those slots.

 

m0wglie

Does anyone know if BoL copies the heal from JoL?

Tank is on 90% health
I'm on 90% health
I cast BoL on the tank
I cast JoL on the boss
I hit the boss, JoL procs healing me

Is the tank healed?

I assume not (it would be pretty powerful in a large raid...), but I can't log on to test it right now.

 

burghy

Afaik bol is restricted to only HL, FoL, HS.

 

m0wglie

Cool.

Unless anyone else feels like testing that, I'll test it tonight (and I'll test LoH as well, presumably someone's tested that already?), then we can update the front page to say "HL, HoL, and HS" rather than "Paladin heals"?

 

moby3012

In case of mana regeneration, you are right, I am ignoring the procc of the insightful one. But is it really necessary? The point is, yes the insightfull one gives you more mana, but the ember one gives you a better scaling of your int and it delivers you spellpower as well as the int does. So maybe it is just the masterquestion, a question of flavor, what fits better to your style of playing, is it efficience or endurance.

 

Palados

Anyone knows how ember is stacking with BoK : additively or multiplicatively?

 

• frmorrison

I have tested glyph of Holy Light and Judgement of Light, those do no affect the Beacon. Since those are not "cast by the Paladin" I don't see the need to change anything, the tooltip is correct.

 

galzohar

While your eyeballing doesn't just guess, the simulation doesn't just guess the fight duration, your actual stats etc - you actually input those values (unless the simulation is very so horrible in which case I agree not using it is a good idea). Bottom line is that a simulation can always take into account more things than your "eyeballing" can, even if it doesn't take everything in. If there's something you find important that the simulation doesn't take into account, there's always making a better one / suggesting an improvement to whoever made it - that's one of the main reasons those simulations work so nicely, they always keep improving.

 

Endoscient

You realize how small of a spell power gain you will get? If you have 1500 int then 2% int will only give you 6 spell power. You are saying you would take 6 spell power over 75 mp5? If you don't care about how much mana you are then why are you gearing for Int. That is what it gives you, a lot of additional mana.

 

Descended

Re 1. But main tank healing generally doesn't work that way, in my experience. Lets say you are assigned to heal the Fathom-Lord Karathress tank. Now pretend you were able to do the fight 20 times in a row, with same tank, the same raid buffs, the same raid members, the same fight execution, the same everything except the RNG factors. I think you'd find that you could come up with a pretty predictable number of casts for HL/FoL. Now, fast forward a couple weeks. Your gear improves; you gain maximum mana, spell power, crit, regen. Now, what really changes in your experience as the Karathress tank healer? You can spend the extra mana you end up with on one or two extra HL that are essentially gambles; but unless you are geared up enough that you could drop four or five HLs in at the end of the fight before running out of mana, you aren't going to gamble during the middle of the fight by deciding to blow a few HLs when you probably don't need them.

So, if you have the mana necessary to perform the healing role assigned you, a relatively small amount of additional mana isn't going to change which spells you cast, or how many of them you cast; you just end the fight with more mana. If you don't have the necessary mana, it is easiest to fix that with stats that give you more mana, rather than make you heal for more. If you could end the fight with large amounts of surplus mana, the only purpose your overgearing serves is as insurance against RNG outliers.

Re 3. I was trying to say (and did so poorly) that the relative importance of crit and MP5 to total healing done doesn't vary significantly with the mix of healing spells you use.

Re 4. You're right, assuming the case where you have so much extra mana you know you can get away with dumping it on HL gambles.

 

Endoscient

I think that is a bad example for a few reasons. We aren't gearing up fights that we can already do easily. If we can already do a fight succesfully like that then we obviously don't need more gear.

It is also an unrealistic example that everything will go exactly the same like that. Say the first week you did it everyone had pretty good execution and you were able to just beat it. Now when you come back a few weeks later with better gear someone messes up, but you are able to power through with your gear (using more Holy Lights) where you would have wiped if it was the first time.

Healing is all about gambles, there is no way to know absolutely before hand if the tank is going to need HL to live or if FoL is fine. You use your judgment based on many factors to try to pick the best solution. More mana lets you use HL more liberally and lessen the chance the tank will get bursted. I am sure we have all had times where our tank died while we were casting FoL or couldn't switch to HL fast enough. More mana means you can reduce the times that happens, because you will be Holy Lighting in those circumstances anyway since you have the mana to.

You can never have too much mana as a Holy Paladin, you can always use it to cast more Holy Lights. If constant Holy Lights is not enough HPS, then something else is going wrong.

 

Descended

If main tank healing is all about having the mana to cast the spells you need to keep the tank up during damage spikes, why wouldn't you rate MP5 is the second most valuable stat for Holy Paladins now, behind Int?

 

Palados

Because spellpower has 'hidden' efficiency in it: it allows you cast more FoL and less HL, since your FoLs are bigger. Actually, relative value of stats varies from fight to fight. If you use rawr for modelling it you will see that sometimes mp5 is better than spellpower and sometimes spellpower is better than mp5. That is why you can not say this stat is always better than other so go for it. At the moment only int is clear winner.

 

Endoscient

Because Mp5 doesn't give anywhere near the amount of mana per item point that Int does.

 

Malleus

To elaborate on this point: [Cloak of the Darkcaster]. After Kings, the 24 Intellect on the Cloak provides ~400 mana. 400 extra maximum mana is worth 100 MP60 from Divine Plea if you pop it every minute and between 48 and 60 MP60 from Replenishment (dependent on uptime; in a 25-man raid, I would assume 80% uptime if you have one supplier and 100% if you have two) for a total of 148-160 MP60. The 12 MP5 on the same item is, of course, worth 144 MP60.

So, in terms of straight regen alone, 2 Int is at the very least equivalent to 1 MP5. On top of that, Int provides spellpower, crit, and an additional starting sum of mana the value of which will vary with fight length. Yet according to the stat weightings on WoWWiki, 2 Int is worth 2 points on the item budget while 1 MP5 costs 2.5 points.

 

• Joanna

My experience so far tends to favour the 'mp5 is dead' camp more than anythng else. I note someone posted earlier that in their simulations the relative values of crit and mp5 only began to change when casting an 'unrealistic number' of HL or FL vs the other. I think it's important to note that the only situations we've encountered thus far where healer mana matters worth a damn are ones which necessitate the spamming of gigantic heals anyway, and so the question is only meaningful in sitations where HL makes up a percentage of your healing most people might well consider unreasonable.

Wow Web Stats - the collected logs of our night learning Malygos illustrates this quite well I think.

There, and at Patchwerk (and maybe Sappihron if you try to strongarm it with relatively few healers) are the only encounters I've seen so far where regen is actually of any concern, and both require throughput AND longevity, Sartharion with drakes still up I've yet to see, but I doubt it will be a flash-friendly fight. No one I know stacked or much rated mp5 to heal Brutallus, and that was before Int became as good as it now is, in truth I'm looking at mp5 increasingly as something of a junk stat which swallows up massive amounts of item budget for relatively meagre rewards.

My ranking at the minute would be more Int->Crit->Spell->Haste->.......->mp5, without exaggeration, lately I'm disregarding it as a stat when evaluating upgrades.

Nulla in Mundo pax sincera.

 

EvadDeWahr

It does help to read posts and not scan them.

The poster said
So your point about "Mp5 doesn't give anywhere near the amount of mana per item point that Int does." is Moot.

Unless you are saying we should have minimum MP5 and avoid it.

What is relevant is if you have a lot of Int (and then how much is a lot) do you also need Mp5 as well? If you do how much is enough? Because you will probably have some.

In regards with the Cloak as an example [Cloak of the Darkcaster]. Are we saying that the MP5 on the cloak is worth 0 and a Cloak with just 22 sta 24 Int and 37 SP is just as good? I don't believe that was the point.

The point appears that 20 int is worth about 11-12 mp5 and that MP5 is now an expensive stat. In that a Cloak with an ilvl 10 less (12 MP5=30ilvl 20 Int=20ilvl) without MP5 would be just as good for us.
Thus we should be passing on the Cloak if there is a Shammy in the group?

 

Endoscient

I did read the post fully, and I think the "anywhere near" part of my reply covered why mp5 wouldn't be the 2nd stat for us to choose after Int. His argument was that Int gives mana and mp5 gives mana, so mp5 should be second. I was saying no, they give drastically different amounts of mana.

You shouldn't just ignore mp5. It still has uses, but I find that around 1 int = 1mp5. So it is still useful on items, just don't gear for it.

You can't really just show an item and say if you should pass on it or not, you need to compare it to other items you have available to you. It could be the case that even though it has a lot of mp5 it is still the best that you can get at your progression.

 

Palados

All armor slots have mp5 (mp5/haste or mp5/crit) and non mp5 (haste/crit) items of the same iLvL. I think that the best tactics is to reach soft haste cap (1sec FoL with all raid buffs after judging) with non mp5 items and then go for mp5 items with crit. Socket mostly for int and int/something.

I have a question about enchants though. Is 30 int really that much better than 63 spelldamage on weapon as rawr shows? I got The Turning Tide today and before spending loads of money on mighty spellpower decided to check rawr first. It shows Major Intellect being about 20% more effective. How do you guys enchant your weapons?

 

Sharlos

I thought int was our primary regen stat while SP and haste are our throughput stats.

 

galzohar

As far as I know rawr only calculates your efficiency, that is, how much healing you can do if you use all your mana, and has nothing to do with your burst ability. Not that it's not good info, but it's not all the info, and will obviously undervalue spell power (not to mention haste) by a significant amount if you care at all about burst.

 

Endoscient

Some more solid comparisons on meta gems. I am using gear with 1400 intellect, and 25114 mana as a base. Assuming a 6 minute fight, using Divine Plea 4 times, and 90% replenishment uptime.

[Beaming Earthsiege Diamond]

• 502 mana at start.
• 502 mana from Divine Plea.
• 407 mana from Replenishment.
• 60 mana from Arcane Torrent, if you are a Blood Elf.
• 0.457% crit.
• Total: 1411 mana (+60 if Blood Elf), and 0.457% crit.

[Ember Skyflare Diamond]

• 28 Intellect
• 420 mana at start.
• 420 mana from Divine Plea.
• 340 mana from Replenishment.
• 50 mana from Arcane Torrent, if you are a Blood Elf.
• 30.6 spell power.
• 0.168% crit.
• Total: 1180 mana (+50 if Blood Elf), 30.6 spell power, 0.168% crit.

[Insightful Earthsiege Diamond]

• 26.6 Intellect (After Kings/Divine Intellect)
• 399 mana at start.
• 399 mana from Divine Plea.
• 323 mana from Replenishment.
• 48 mana from Arcane Torrent, if you are a Blood Elf.
• 5.3 spell power.
• 0.156% crit.
• 4800 mana from proc. With ICD an average of 45 seconds per proc.
• Total: 5921 mana (+48 if Blood Elf), 5.3 spell power, 0.156% crit.

This makes IED the clear winner in my eyes, unless you would give up ~4000 mana for 25 spell power or 0.3% crit. Later I will add [Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond] to the list, and upate the main post with these results.

 

Sacrales

I have a problem getting the right mob targetted in Instances for Judgement of Light/ Wisdom.
At the moment I'm using Healbot as an AddOn. I tried the following macro to target the tank's target:

However this doesn't work because Healbot doesn't support target=hbtargettarget.
It resulted into targetting the closest mob to me. Which, in many cases, was the CC'ed mob...
I tried another macro:

However, this required to keep the tank targetted all the time. I'm looking for a focus macro now. I have read the one on this forum but I thought I needed one that would work well with healbot. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

Palados

Well, I already reached 1sec FoL raid buffed, so haste value is greatly deminished. If ~1.5 sec HL isn't enough burst than all other classes are completely screwed in this situation. And if HPS isn't a problem then efficiency is everything you should care about and int is a winer. Or is it a wrong approach?

Each regen stat has hidden throughput value allowing you to cast more HL and less FoL.