I'm assuming you mean PoJ, not JoL. And it already exists, it's called Tuskarr's Vitality (or maybe it's Tuskkar?). It's a viable alternative if you absolutely _cannot_ spare those last 2 talent points, but otherwise imo it's better to stick with PoJ.

I agree with you here.

To Evvi

However, it's only two talent point's, and id take the extra crit/hit from http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=60623 [icewalker] and have the two point's there.

Right now my spec is using DG to ease out our 3D attempts, and I'm really feeling the loss of PoJ. Going to re-enchant later tonight till patch hit's.

PTR is already proving that PoJ is an amazing tool for paladins.

Question: Anyone still have point's in prot for DG and tested it out on the uld bosses?

Ok, The Saph fight is easy for the paladin that uses his head. Hodir will be the same, here is what I would do on Hodir to make PoJ less needed. Sure you have to move but I can make it so you don't have to move as much. The fact it that people will be taking damage that fight, moving only resets it so it doesn't hit for more. As a Paladin how fast we move has nothing to do with how much we heal for. We still need to stand in one place and for Hodir here is how you do it. From what I have seen of his damaging abilities Paladins are about the only healer with the HPS to keep the take up, but and I will say this again we have to stand still. If you assign healing right you can do this and the only time you will have to move is when the things from the ceiling fall.

When I first did Sapp i was put on the tank but knowing I would have to move mean that while I was moving the tank could possibly die so what I would do is Beacon and SS myself. What that enable me to do is pretty much stand still for that whole fight and move only when I had to meaning Deep Breath. I could even stand in Blizzard and always had full health. The Hodir fight is another fight I intend to use this method of healing. Allow me the chance to stand in one place for long periods of time will give me an edge and allow me to heal the tank as well. There are factor i don't know yet because I haven't done the fight but I believe doing this will make this fight easy and make PoJ not as needed.

I mean if you can get the talent and not lose much then go ahead and take it. I myself have always gone down the prot tree for DG so I go without the extra speed and I do just fine healing. Now my spec might change with 3.1 considering our ret pally will be able to spec into it. But my GM feels that 30% raid damage reduction is better than the extra crit in the ret tree. It so happens I agree. The only case where I might change is if I'm finding I'm having mana issues and then I would spec for the extra crit.

But again PoJ is a optional talent you can get along without. If you can get it can or not out anything but having it or not having it.

Why do you keep comparing PoJ to the useless holy talents? There's no real reason now nor after the patch (assuming current changes stick) to go with more than 51 in holy, and there's obviously no reason to go with less. That leaves 20 points for prot/ret, which means taking PoJ will result in 2% less crit (or optionally 2% less healing instead after the patch). There's absolutely nothing else you can drop for it, as the lower tier ret talents are required to reach conviction/PoJ and you're not going to go more than 5 in prot no matter what (unless you go DG in which case neither PoJ nor crit is an option anyway).

Hi - seems like the PoJ discussion is done - sooo, found something else to kick out there and ask:

I was browsing some paladin blogs yesterday and came across one called Blessing of Kings. Although his idea was for rets, I liked it alot. A reader had asked him about the value of strength compared to other stats and he came up with the following:

Now this got me thinking - could you build a similar system for holy (remember that no matter what ppl come up with, it will always be an estimate and a question of playstyle). I remembered that maxdps had a system like the one from BoK. That looks like this:

I'm not too happy about the high value on mp5 and the low value on crit, and in general I would like to know if you have a better stat comparison than the one from maxdps?

I made the following comparison on [The Turning Tide] and [Torch of Holy Fire]

The Turning Tide
50 int (12,55)
520 spellpower (119,08)
48 haste (5,52)
37 crit (3,96)
sum: 141,11

Torch of Holy Fire
49 int (12,3)
520 spellpower (119,08)
40 haste (4,6)
15 mp5 (11,89)
sum: 147,87

In my opinion TTT is a better holy paladin weapon than ToHF, but the values from maxdps indicates a small lead on the mace.

The values you show maxdps is using are actually pretty close to what I use myself (which I got combining rawr results for my own gear with the burst value of stats), except mp5 seems slightly high. Since I don't know how they derived those values, I can't tell you why they value it higher than me. What I can tell you is that with my values TTT is only a hair better than torch, and that was before taking into account the DP nerf (which would give correct results if you'd still use it on every cooldown, however this may or may not be possible depending on the fight). Bottom line is that you should probably check rawr yourself with your gear, and not forget to decide how much you actually value burst VS efficiency. Relying on point systems other people make up for you without even looking at your gear and without you even knowing what they did to get those values is usually bad practice unless you only care about having gear that's "more or less optimal if they did it properly" rather than "simply optimal".

Regarding salvation, considering current TPS vs DPS, I'm not sure reducing its cooldown will be too useful, although if TPS vs DPS scaling changes it might be something worth picking in the future.

The stat weighting tool on WoWHead gives:

+10 spellpower: 2.90
+10 crit: 1.90
+10 haste: 5.27
+10 int: 1.53
+4mp5: 1.85

vs

This rates haste extremely high and int a little low. I'm wondering if these weights were created based on TBC calculations. The numbers for mp5 and crit seem much closer to what they should be though. Those numbers rate ToHF at ~149 and TTT at ~153 (with the two weights likely to be out of date nearly equivalent between the two).

I don't understand why we're comparing numbers that nobody knows how they were derived, especially when you have rawr to derive numbers in a much more personalized and adjustable manner.

Actually, shouldn't the fact that MP5 is the most expensive stat on an item's budget diminish its value relative to other cheaper stats? That is to say, since 20 MP5 eats up the budget for 40 crit, we're taking a sizeable "opportunity cost" for the wasted MP5.

It would seem that MP5 should be valued equal to crit/spellpower so that the naturally pricier item budget prioritizes itself beneath crit and the other stats.

Value MP5 any way you want.
But it is still doing what it always did.
And it still benefits your healing just as much as it always did, just now Int does so much more in efficiency.
As has been stated it "looks" high but you get so much less of it due to its' high item budget cost.

People need to stop posting questions like this.

"Is X better than Y?" is not a valid question for a healer. We are not DPSers, we cannot derive exact values / weightings for specific stats, and as far as I'm concerned, trying to do so just shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role.

What you can do is learn to understand which stats are better in which circumstances and why this is the case. In doing so you'll learn to be able to make changes to your gear (usually trinkets / rings / librams / etc) in order to maximise your potential (because at the end of the day you have a very limited amount of control over the fight. No matter how high your SP or int, you can't prevent a tank from mistiming a CD or another healer from DCing) for the specific encounter that you are about to attempt.

Once you have an understanding of which stats you find desirable, and want to focus on for a particular encounter, then you can use tools such as rawr or spreadsheets to derive exact values comparing various stats for a specific purpose, but you will never be able to say that one is flat out "better" than another. This is even the case with intellect, which would be almost completely useless on a 12 second fight (extreme example, but it can be extrapolated with currently attainable int levels and fight lengths).

You can make rough generalisations, such as "intellect will increase the total healing you are capable of on a bossfight by more than any other stat," but if you don't understand why, and in which situations this statement does not hold true in, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

Raw numbers will only get you so far, if you don't understand the ideas and reasoning behind them, then there's no point.