galzohar

Depends how much you lost to get that haste... With current itemization though it seems like some slots don't leave you many (good) choices that don't have haste.

 

allutz3rd

I really don't like haste with the new talents nearly as much as in 2.4. Luckily it seems like you get enough haste from the gearset we have without specifically going for haste.

That being said I think alot of people are overvaluing int in their calculations, by failing to look at the fight from a death context. Int is a great stat so long as people are not taking damage that is greater than base healing. This is why +SP has been so good in the past, and really will continue to be good(Better per item point than int).

 

Palados

Well, I rather look at it from Bliz new healing approach. They want all classes to be able to handle specific tasks. So all healers should be able to heal MT for example. Thus paladins will hardly come to the point where they spam HL (2-3 casts isn't spam yet) because in this situation no other healer could overheal such a damage. It means that we won't meet a boss that requires steady and extremely high HPS. SP is great to increase HPS without extra resources while int is great by providing additional resources. Both are good.

My 'gut feeling' tells me that if you are spamming fol a lot (for example raid healer if 2 palas heal 10man), then SP is good to stack. However if you plan to cast HL quite often int is winner. SP brings nowhere near as much extra HPS as additional resources from int (extra mana, extra mp5, extra crit) bring per item point.

I allso agree that one should not specifically gear for haste anymore. I got it capped without aiming, just getting upgrades in 10-25mans. Now I am searching how can I dump some haste into more crit and SP.

 

galzohar

A little math, taking some epiced out pally as a baseline in rawr, I got 1 int increasing the efficiency by 0.076%, 1 mp5 by 0.0935%, 1 sp by 0.032% and 1 crit by 0.021%. Comparing to some quick calcuations of raw burst HL HPS ignoring mana, 1 sp gives 0.017%, 1 haste 0.021% and 1 int 0.0043%. So as you can see with gear upgrades the relative increase to how much healing you can do with your mana is much bigger than the relative increase in your burst ability. In other words, gear upgrades affect how much you can do b4 oom a lot more than how much they affect your ability to get that big heal big enough and fast enough.

Of course how much 1% extra burst ability is worth compared to 1% extra longevity (which is pretty much what rawr calculates) is something that's quite fight dependant and even given a specific fight it's often really hard to tell what's more important. Not to mention figuring out what options to put into rawr is another issue.

 

allutz3rd

If all classes really can heal MT what would the point of the holy paladin be exactly?

The thing about extra SP, and why I like it so much (although less than I did when we still could downrank) is it helps free up other healers for raid damage. Just have a druid roll lifebloom and you can pretty much handle all the tank damage yourself.

 

Endoscient

When I am casting Holy Light I have enough burst healing, no matter how I gear myself. I start running into problems when I no longer have enough mana to keep up that many Holy Lights.

 

Araceli

So my friend (A holy paladin), was healing a heroic Gun'drak tonight with a prot paladin as the tank.

The prot paladin swore up and down that Sacred Shield was bad to use on prot paladins because it stopped them from taking damage and they needed to take damage.

Is this true or false?

What's the reasoning for this, anyone know?

 

Kyoghin

A good percentage of prot paladin's mana regen comes from spiritual attunement. Since he wasn't taking any damage, he wasn't getting any mana back from your heals making him run low on mana often apparently from him being quite annoyed. Though with jotw and seal of wisdom, it should provide good mana regen unless he isn't doing that which can explain his gripe.

 

burghy

Palados I don't see how you are capped. I have more haste than you and I'm at 1.11 FoL with raidbuffs.
Haste is good in a lot of situations: when you are forced to spam the tank and need to refresh the load of self buffs. when you have to move a lot and still the tank gets a serious amount of dmg, etc.

Imo there are 2 types of items you want as holy paladin atm: sp + haste + crit and sp + crit + mp5, priority with first type and int base socketing.

 

Flidais

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like old reasoning. Prior to 3.0, most tanks got more from being hit; for warriors (and less so for bears), they got a lot of rage from taking damage, for paladins, if they took damage they got healed which gave them more mana through SA. So one way or another, getting hit restored the resource that helped them build threat.

This isn't so much the case anymore, though. With the changes to Sanctuary, a prot paladin will be getting mana back with every dodge, block, or parry, so they're not as wholly reliant on the mana return from SA as they used to be. And unlike a priest's PW:S, I really don't think Sacred Shield absorbs enough damage to make a huge difference in the amount of healing the tank will be getting; I've never seen it proc more than 3 times in the 30 seconds it's up.

 

dslfreakdude

Although I plan to PvP almost exclusively in WOTLK, I have to say this is a very good guide.

I'm glad to see that you mentioned crit is exponential and that mp5 is bad with divine plea.

I'm also glad to see that someone agrees that intellect is a very good (or the best) stat. I've been worried about stacking it b/c I'm very biased towards it.

I think the most disputable part of your guide are the builds. They're fundamentally strong (no sarcasm), but...

Why pursuit of justice for pve? I suppose maybe heigan and stuff? I'd prefer pure of heart -- especially in 5man healing (which I've been doing)

and why not judgments of the pure for pvp? I've been turning over in my head whether to give up imp conc. aura, LG, or imp. HoJ for pvp, but I never thought about giving up my 15% haste. I like your solution a lot, but judgments of the pure seems too valuable. I think everyone will get at least 1/5 just to make priests dispel it. I also think having faster-than-GCD FoL is very key to pvp.

 

Palados

At the moment I swaped a few crit + mp5 items with crit+haste items.

Haste is good, of course. But is there any sense to stack haste after you reached 1sec GCD and your FoL is GCD capped? I would rather go for SP or crit instead. And reaching the soft cap with haste+crit items available for every armor slot is trivial. Just a matter of a few weeks or even days if you are lucky, since many items in Naxx are shared drops.

 

burghy

Ofc there isn't much sense to get haste after 1s gcd, but that's not a trivial amount of haste, you still have 27% haste to go, almost 900 rating.

 

Caesar86

So, at when will we cap our spell haste? as yoy say 900 haste more i get it that we dont need to be worried to have to much haste i guess? but what is the total amount to be capped.

Since i hear alot of diffrent stories about haste, some say haste isnt that good and likes mp5 better.
I've read the first post couple of times but not all the awnsers as i dont have the time for it.

but atm my prio's are.

Int
SP
Crit + Haste
and lastly mp5

I, allways try to aim for gems with Int in them with various combinations such as crit etc to allways get socket bonus (often good if you get them all), but since there is often 2 diffrent plate sets in raids aka t7 + random epics, there is allways almost 1 with MP5 and 1 with either crit or haste, i am mainly allways skipping MP5 as it isnt that good, I have a total of 64 MP6 while casting.. that is even lower with my t6 raiding gear but i got 1545 SP,28.39% Crit and 10.80% haste atm.

It works fine for me.. tho i did have mana problems at Patchwerk 10 man, but eventually with a few tweeks and dps boost (every around 2k+, some at 2.6) we did kill him, it was me and a shaman healing and ofc i was healing Hateful Strike tank as the heals affected the MT (Bacon of light^^) and it worked, But it was hard with a shammy since Spirit didnt effect anyone of us so it would be easier with a Priest since he has shield + hots and direkt healing, anyway.

If i can manage to take down Patchwerk without going oom (wich was close) my mp5 shouldnt be any problem as i often was spamming HL all the time, wich rarley happens, might be that i have to stack up on some Mp5 + SP gear for just patch but i dont know.

So any comments? its abit confusing about what to prio but i think i got it pritty good.

//Caesar

 

Lateolocutus

I've been looking through this thread regarding normal gemming, and while I gather yellow and red slots are fairly easy to work with (Brilliant Autumn's Glow, Luminous Monarch Topaz, and Runed Scarlet Ruby, or their green/epic versions) due to how naturally int or spellpower fits in, I've been having trouble assessing how to fill blue sockets.

Lusterous Sky Sapphire (6 mp5)
Dazzling Forest Emerald (8 int, 3 mp5)
Forceful Forest Emerald (8 haste, 3 mp5)
Sundered Forest Emerald (8 crit, 3 mp5)
Royal Twilight Opal (9 spellpower, 3 mp5)

I'm thinking Royal or Dazzling might be the strongest options, but how are others gemming?

 

Perastra

To be honest, unless the Gem Set bonus is the same as the stat i'm gemming for I tend to just put whatever colour in. Personally I'd go for Dazzling Forest Emerald, since I believe that Int. is fast becoming the Paladin Main Stat.

 

Endoscient

That is why I said they are just reference builds that you can then customize, aimed to help people just starting out. I could list 20 different builds, and people would still point out that I didn't consider a certain build. Yes, Pure of Heart could be better for 5 mans, where there are a lot of debuffs flying around, but lilttle movement needed compared to raids.

For gems I go with Dazzling (Int/Mp5) and Luminous (Int/SP) for meeting socket/meta requirements. I try to use them only in places with Int socket bonuses though.

 

galzohar

How do you handle LG, now that you can't do it with a cheap HL rank? Now you have to either let it fall off and have a slower HL on emergency or pay a hefty mana cost to keep it up.


Regarding protection paladin regeneration, BoS and JoW are simply not enough to keep you going. Not even close (unless you have a large number of mobs attacking you and even then you can spend more than you regen). Spiritual attunement is still a major part of the regen, the only thing sanc changes is that you have a lower threat penalty for gaining avoidance, but there's still a penalty. Of course threat isn't really an issue, but if a tank is not taking enough damage to be able to use all abilities to the max, then you probably won't have a problem healing him with only direct healing.

 

Endoscient

Normally I just ignore trying to keep it up, but if I know there is going to be some large incoming burst soon I will use a Holy Light even if I don't need it.

 

Xetron

Somebody else using the Soul of the Dead trinket of Sapphiron yet ?
I'm seeing some crazy numbers here with the Holy/Ret crit build. It basically is my third biggest mana source in a 25-man raid (if you leave out replenishment) and that in front of spritual attunement with the glyph.

Also I must disagree with the general opinion that you aren't supposed to use holy light anymore on a consistent basis. It actually scaled very well with crit (mana return is very high), spellpower and the glyph that works on overheal.

To back that up i use a wws table from a recent 5hr 25man raid: Wow Web Stats

-Please look at my effective heal and compare with my total healing. (10m vs. 30m)
-Also look for the amount of HL vs. Flash (765 vs. 422)
-And last but not least the maximum heal output test at noth the plaguebringer try 2 where I came in at above 9k HPS while trying really hard.

 

Endoscient

Yes, it is one of the best trinkets in the game for us, looking through your WWS it seems to have a 50 sec ICD. To be worth on average 80mp5 (of course varying on crit). My two ideal trinkets are that and Sapphire Owl.

I find also that I can cast a great deal of Holy Lights, compared to pre-WotLK. With all the mana cost reduction (Libram, Glyph of SoW, 4pc), Divine Plea, and how well Int scales you can push out a lot of them before going OOM.

 

Malleus

It's been tested as having the near-ubiquitous 45 second ICD and (IIRC) a 25% proc rate. With the proc being based on critical strikes rather than on cast, 50 seconds between procs is a reasonable expectation.

 

• tonic316

So are the officers in my guild correct in barring our healers paladins included from taking spell power, haste, crit loot over mages,locks, and elemental shamans? There reasoning is the latter classes benefit much more from those stats then I do because I can make some use of mp5 where as they can not.

If they are not correct how do I convince them else wise to change there minds?


edit - Basically if a ring,neck,cloak,weapon,shield drops that doesn't have mp5 on it I cant take it.

 

Pyre

There's only a few slots where this will matter for you - most everything you wear will be spellpower plate, and thus unusable by any other class.

 

Endoscient

You should link them some of your tier 7 pieces which are itemized that exact way, for example gloves.