Sagus

While not a pally myself, from reading this thread, it sounds like you barely benefit from mp5 more than a mage would, if at all. So it seems like a rather silly rule to me.

 

Equalizer

So my guild just started doing 25 mans in WotLK, and I started researching the Emblem of Heroism items. Aside from the ring, it seems like they totally borked the itemization.

I don't quite understand all the haste/spell power plate I'm seeing. It's not like we share plate with another healing class. Why is it all itemized so poorly?

 

burghy

Sp and haste are both good stats. And seriously can't expect badge gear to be perfectly designed (even though some items like the belt are).

 

Apollion

I haven't read all of this thread recently, but I feel this is pretty important to point out. I tested casting my holy lights with Seal of wisdom (glyphed) and the badge libram as well as Divine Illumination, I don't have my 4 piece T7 yet so I cant test with that yet. From what I can tell, our -% mana cost abilities including divine illumination will be multiplicative and after that is calculated the holy light libram is added on after that. Any mana gained from illumination crits is still calculated from the base holy light regardless of our benefits. If I presume that the 4 piece T7 bonus will react the same way seal of wisdom does, in reality we will be seeing nearly 75% of our mana back from holy lights instead of 60% as stated on the tooltip. If you want to check my numbers so far, the raw data is as follows.

Base Holy light cost : 1274
With wisdom/no libram: 1210
With libram/no wisdom: 1102
With libram+wisdom+divine illumination: 497
With DI+Wisdom: 605
With DI+Libram: 524

Like I said, I don't have any 4 piece T7 data, maybe will be able to find out more this reset but from what I can tell. Holy light is looking a lot better than it does at first glance on paper.

 

Jiibus

Just a slight issue with your assessment of the [Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] in your main post. You state that it has 5% chance to restore 600 mana but Mana Restore states that it is a 2% chance to restore 300 mana according to wowhead. I haven't had a chance to use it so could I be missing something?

 

• Chicken

Apply Aura: Proc Trigger Spell
Value: 100
Proc chance: 5%

Mana Restore
Energize
Value: 600

The buff description for Mana Restore is from the old Insightful Earthstorm Diamond, as there's normally no way of seeing it in-game, it wasn't updated for the new gem.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

aquanda

Thank you for this information, I'd love to see this included on the OP. I was recently debating whether or not to use Glyph of Seal of Light or Seal of Wisdom and it looks like my decision has been made for me.

 

galzohar

Are the crit mana returns a % of the actual mana cost or a % of the base mana cost? I would tend to assume the former (based on the very old changes to DI) but you can never really know without some testing. The latter would make mana cost reduction much more worthwhile.

 

Apollion

The mana returns are of the base mana cost. I tried critting with every combination of seal of wisdom, libram, divine illumination available and it always has given me either 764 or 765 mana back. Reason for the difference I'd assume is 60% of 1274 is 764.4 so blizzard has the number round up or down through some equation.

 

aquanda

With DI + Libram + Glyph I gained back 765 mana on a HL crit, so your assumption is correct.

 

Calus

i was wonder if this elixir combo wouldnt be better than the frostwyrm flask.?

Elixir of Mighty Thoughts (+45 Intellect)
Guru's Elixir (+20 all stats)

considering you are a alchemist and get the bonus from Mixology

 

Perastra

What's going on with Paladin itemisation at the moment? I was always of the impression that Intellect and +crit were the Paladin 'Main Stats', haste was capped at late BT/SWP levels. Though I'm seeing more and more Plate SP gear that sacrifices +crit for Haste and/or MP5. What stats would you consider most useful for us now?

 

Malleus

Guru's Elixir with Mixology gives +30 to all stats; Mighty Thoughts gives +64 to Intellect. Total including Kings and talents is ~119 Int. That's roughly 1% crit, 24 spellpower, 1785 starting mana, and up to 59.5 MP5. Unless I was really aching for that extra 96 SP, I'd like this combo over the Flask in any content I wasn't learning.

On the other hand, Pygmy Oil/Guru's is the most obvious route for skilling Alchemy 375-400 so the fish cost the earth; we're talking as much as 15g each on my server, and if you're unlucky it can take as many as three to make one Elixir. I can fish them, but with a 5% drop rate it'd take on average two hours to farm enough Suckerfish for a single stack of Elixirs. I know this doesn't normally matter to cutting edge raiders - they'll absorb almost any expense for the best chance at success - but it simply may not be practical to rely on them given the rarity of the mats.

 

burghy

Distilled wisdom is 98 int before kings and much cheaper.

 

• frmorrison

I recall a 25% bonus when drinking flasks or elixirs. Also, this example is very similar to the Classic 65 Int Flask, which is listed in the OP.

I see 102 Int from either combo compared to 150 SP from Frostwyrm with Mixology.


Using my item weights Frostwyrm is slightly favored. Note I use all gems with int or int/SP/Mp5 depending on socket color, so likely the SP flask is a better boost since I have a lot of Int already.

 

Calus

your sure? on my server it seems noone collects the old mats anymore

 

burghy

Bought dreamfoil and icecap with ~25g per stack, and black lotus is 10-20g. And keep in mind is a 4h flask, doubt you can have so insane prices that it becomes more expensive than elixir combos during learning process.

 

Palados

For raid gear: choosing between haste/mp5 item and crit/mp5 item I would use later. The choise between crit/haste and crit/mp5 will depend on encounter and the number of healers in the raid. I, personally, really like haste. But it seems that crit gives a bit better return in most encounters (at least for my gear and healing assignements).

For heroics I go all haste and just FoL/HS with occasional HL. You hardly need any mp5 in heroics because of very shot fight durations, so haste/crit gear is the most optimal one.

 

Soralin

In a mix of T7/Naxx Offset gear, I'm currently sitting at about 15% passive haste. With Judgements of the Pure that goes to 30% - my HL cast time is about 1.5 seconds with Light's Grace up. With Heroism my FOL cast time is under 1 second (ie: clipped by GCD), however I'm finding that in Naxx, on some fights more than others, I"m basically chaincasting HL and not bothering too much with FoL - but would agree with Palados that heroics tend to be more HS/FoL spam. Having said that - I'm hesitant to acquire too much more haste.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread by Apollion, the more HL cost reduction effects you have, the higher the percentage return of Illumination is. As you get things like the Badge Libram, SoW Glyph, and 4pce Tier7, crit will in my opinion become more valuable.

I have been stacking intellect, by and large - with raid buffs and Flask (of Distilled Wisdom) I'm at about 26k mana, and I'm finding that very few fights bleed me dry of mana (Patchwerk's constant HL spam, and Rasuvious to a lesser extent are the obvious ones). Most fights I don't need to mana pot now.

Stacking intellect is all very well initially but after a certain point it becomes less valuable (specifically, the point at which you have no further mana problems, either by huge returns from DP/Replenishment, or simply having too large an effective mana pool to use all of it) and stacking something else is worthwhile.

Personally I believe that "something else" is spellpower - crit is mostly a regen stat for us, and spellpower scales not only with healing spells but also with Sacred Shield.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on stacking intellect indefinitely - or at what point it becomes viable to stack something else... and what that is.

 

Zaelen

I get the feeling lately that when I am critting Shocks, I feel very dynamic and effective, and when they don't crit I feel same old, same old. When I look at stuff like Tidal Waves in Shaman Resto I really question if IoL couldn't be pushed a little further. Basically, when I get a tank to heal, I am just sitting there watching Sacred Shield (which I do think is great) Earth Shield, Renews, PoMs and Druid stacks soak up all the incidental healing while I wait for the Big One to Shock/react to but I am not especially equipped to do so unless HS crits.

This is where the paladin itemization comes in - are they trying to tell us something about all the haste/* gear? Should we be taking FoL out of the rotation and trying to push for <1.5s HL bombs? I really can't say anymore.

What kind of assignments are you finding yourself most useful and how is that tailoring your gear? Anyone have experience with heavy Haste stacking post-LK?

 

allutz3rd

I'm going heavy crit(over heavy haste) because holy light benefits the most from it, and you need to cast a HL every 12 seconds regardless to keep LG up, and the more crit the cheaper that is. In cases where ou are casting FoL the speed at which it lands usually is not life or death(if someone was that close to death you'd be using HL) and keeping up LG will benefit your speed more than any level of haste.

 

Apollion

I think crit vs haste will have to do a lot with playstyle and gear. If you find yourself running oom a lot during a fight, stacking more haste won't do much to help your mana-efficiency aside from increasing the HPS of your FoL and reducing the need for HL. On the other hand, if you find yourself straying from the tank during a fight with spot holy shocks or flashes, haste will help you get back on the tank faster and still increase the HPS of your HL when you are chaincasting.

 

Zaelen

Ideally you wouldn't have to choose.. just get rid of all the mp5. I think I need Elemental gear.

Edit - I just did a search on Wowhead.. there is a definitely a plate set that seems tp have +SP, +haste, +crit, it's just all Naxx25 zone drops. On the plus side, I don't think anyone is gonna roll against me on it <3 Thus, no need to enrage the Shamans

Edit2 - I think it's almost important to note that we're using a DK MT (Which is absolutely great) but they seem to benefit a lot from reactives and druids especially due to their reliance cooldowns bridged by avoidance. This leaves me to raid healing w/ Beacon which pretty much means I need to stack haste until I hit 1 second Holy Lights if I want to do something meaningful

 

Palados

Zaelen, how many encounters are there where 1.5sec HL and ~1.18 sec FoL isn't enough for raid healing? I can think only of Sartharion with adds and Sapph without frost res gear and with less healers than usual. So far Blizzard did a good job and there are no encounters with heavy raid aoe damage that is not avoidable in some way. Also, if you want to spam HL, crit allows you to do it much longer.

Just think about this fact - if you have 1sec HL with 20% crit it is equivalent (from itemization points PoV) to 100% crit and about 10-15% passive haste. Later is much better for raid healing in my eyes. Because with 100% crit you can chaincast HL for the whole fight duration more or less.

One more thing to note - having more than one beacon specced holy paladin in raid (unless it's 2paladin 10man that is fine) sort of handicapes one of the paladins except rare two-MT situations. While they are extremely good at MT healing, only one could use beacon and his potential fully. We had to sort a beacon rotation in our raid.

Also, another thing to note is that it is generally not worth to use beacon to simply 'steal' the healing from other classes by FoLing the raid around. This can be even deadly, for example on Malygos where he breathes and hits the tank while you spent your GCD on FoL. Beacon is extremely usefull in situations when someone takes a big spike and paladin lands a HL. For example: someone got fired on Heigan, breathed on Malygos, got lava on Sartharion, etc. We are now very good emergency healers and if shit happens beacon allows you to react without risking your tank death.

 

Calantus

This is exactly what I'm thinking. I started stacking int and very quickly hit a point where I simply can't use all my mana unless I'm deliberately trying to throw it away. My basic strategy for tank healing is to make sure Light's Grace, Sacred Shield, and Judgement of Light are up 24/7 and then FoL inbetween. When the tank takes a spike I hit him with a HS and then a HL if needed. The fights just don't go long enough for that to run me out of mana. I could mix in extra HLs but all that would do most of the time is up my overheal. I'd occasionally land an important HL I wouldn't have otherwise, but I don't think that's any more likely than simply landing big enough heals due to more spellpower.

I tried switching my glyphed seal to light instead of wisdom for extra output and I did start to feel mana becoming more important. I haven't done the math (and likely won't) but I suspect spellpower/wisdom is stronger than int/light if only for the ability to switch to light for burst periods. When I finish up my professions and get a few more pieces of gear I'll switch to spellpower gemming and see how I like it.