The Holy Paladin Guide for WotLK - Page 137

CrazyScot · 04/07/09, 1:51 PM

I was a little later in getting back than expected but here goes.

Originally Posted by Tzeni

The reason your math doesn't work is because you're essentially comparing the mana regen increase to a greater "base" amount. In other words, lets say there's a basketball player who usually scores 10 points, but today he scores 11. Then there's one who averages 30 points, but today he scores 32. Sure, you can say the one who went from 10->11 increased his performance more, but you can't refute that the one who increased his performance from 30->32 had a greater marginal effect on the game, even if he didn't improve his base contribution by as much.

That is the intention of the maths, in working out the "real" value per point of crit you need to take in the effect it has on yourself, the value of one crit as a critical strike percentage is static (47 crit rating to 1%?), this does not mean that the value of crit rating is static, the value of one crit rating on your mana regen depends upon the current amount of crit you have. Which leads me to

Originally Posted by Endoscient

You contradicted the statement and are saying crit is worse the more you get, which is totally wrong. It doesn't show one cycle it shows all of them, it uses 1 / (1 - .6 * crit chance) to compute total mana reduction of crit.

What is the value of crit (as a regen stat) if not how much mana it gives you?

You are correct in a sense that the value of crit in in how much mana it gives, but to assign a value on how much crit rating is worth compared to say 1 spellpower you have to take into account how much it effect it has relative to what you already have. Crit does get worse the more you get when you work it out relative value of it (as I showed with my napkin maths) BUT and this is the disclaimer I should have stated initially instead of assuming people would realise; this diminishing value will occur only when compared against our "strongest" or "most linear" stat.

And you are right, I was incorrect in saying that the graph was the same as the calculations shown earlier but the graphs look similar.

*Edit* As the post previous to this touched upon it, crit only scales upon itself for fights where time allows it to. Time is the one thing we rarely consider when we talk about crit when it is in fact the most important factor. For fights where mana is no issue crit is worthless as a regen stat, it is merely a throughput stat and not as strong as haste. The most optimal use of crit in the perfect world is to balance your crit/haste/spellpower to the point where you put out the most healing safely and finish the fight on 0 mana when the boss dies, the best way of doing this is to increase your haste if the fight is spiky or spellpower if the fight has a consistent level of damage (although each is useful in either situation).

galzohar · 04/07/09, 2:20 PM

Of course we can compare int to spellpower and to any other stat for that matter, that's the whole point of theorycrafting in the firstplace. If they're not compareable how would you ever choose items or even gems? Yes the comparison isn't 100% the same on every possible set of conditions, but using a standard set of conditions will give results that are more than good enough for most realistic conditions. At the end you only care about one thing - your ability to avoid raid members dying. Each stat contributes to that ability in one way or another, and that's what is getting compared here.

CrazyScot, your primary huge mistake is that you look at relative gains to a meaningless value. I don't care how much I increased my mana in relation to the mana I get back from crits. I don't care how much I increase my mana compared to my max mana value. The only thing I care about is how much I increased the amount of total mana I can spend during the fight compared to the amount of mana I could've spent over the whole fight before. That would be the sum of all non-crit mana factors (they're all additive), multiplied by crit mana return factor. I don't care how much mana I get from the extra crits compared to how much mana I was getting from crits, I care how much mana I get from crits compared to how much mana I already had total. Which one is more important and by how much depends on the fight.

Saying time is required for crit to do its job is also a pointless comment, as all theorycrafting assumes you're using all your mana. If you're not using all your mana, what's the point in more mana? We're maximizing ability to heal where our full healing power is needed, because if our full healing power is not needed we're already good enough for dealing with it. So efficiency considers how much you can heal using all your mana, and burst considers how much healing you can do in a short timeframe where mana doesn't matter.

While getting statistics for how much extra healing vs overhealing would be gained from additional spellpower, this data would be far from enough to compare it to other stats, especially mana stats. Keep in mind extra mana would result in you casting more HLs, which would then very likely result in a certain amount of overhealing as well. If you just say "only 10% of the spellpower doesn't overheal, so I'll give spellpower a 0.1X factor" you're making a big mistake, as "only X% of the mana you have doesn't overheal" is also true and you'll have to multiply mana effects by that factor as well. Just knowing how much of the spellpower is overhealing is a start, but it's far from enough to make stat comparisons.

Haste never has any negative effects (other than the loss of other stats that could've been gotten in its place). If you think slower casts would do more healing at any point, nothing stops you from casting slower. If increasing haste (without reducing other stats) reduced your healing it's purely your fault, as no matter how much haste you have you can, at worst, do the same healing as you did with no haste by casting the same number of spells at the same times. Haste, however, compared to other stats, has very little value when it comes to how much healing you can do by spending all your mana, while having a very high value when it comes to increasing your ability to do as much healing as possible over a timeframe short enough for mana not to matter during it. Plus haste acts as some sort of a slight reaction time buffer, though that is quite hard to quantify due to how situational (and probably small when compared to other stats or the other benefit of haste) this benefit is.

CrazyScot · 04/07/09, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

CrazyScot, your primary huge mistake is that you look at relative gains to a meaningless value. I don't care how much I increased my mana in relation to the mana I get back from crits. I don't care how much I increase my mana compared to my max mana value. The only thing I care about is how much I increased the amount of total mana I can spend during the fight compared to the amount of mana I could've spent over the whole fight before. That would be the sum of all non-crit mana factors (they're all additive), multiplied by crit mana return factor. I don't care how much mana I get from the extra crits compared to how much mana I was getting from crits, I care how much mana I get from crits compared to how much mana I already had total. Which one is more important and by how much depends on the fight.

The value is anything but meaningless, it's just how you interpret the value yourself. I know for instance that should I keep the 51/0/20 build going into Ulduar that I shall be considering crit in the same way as I consider mp5, good, but not worth gearing for if I can get a better haste/int/SP upgrade as I personally value them more with my 55%+ Holy Light crit at raid buffs.

Jaydin · 04/07/09, 4:01 PM

The advantage of mp5 is that you regen while not casting heals (casting SS, beacon, not casting). The advantage of crit is that you regen (signficantly more mp5) while casting. Mp5 continues to provide regen while you cast, but it is dwarfed by your illumination regen as soon as you crit. Crit also helps with output, although as it is RNG based it doesn't provide a 100% reliable number. You seem to be comparing apples to oranges when you compare mp5 and crit, then toss both for haste/int/SP.
If you are hurting for mana, crit is almost always preferable to mp5 just due to the amount of regen involved, and it doubles as an output buffer. Mp5 is solely for regen, and provides no other benefit. Int is by far the best stat, and contributes to SP and crit at the same time. SP comes default on gear, and is generally worthless to gem/enchant for.

galzohar · 04/07/09, 4:53 PM

mp5 cannot be dwarfed by illumination, since it gets multiplied by it. That is, if I have X more mana per fight, that mana will be spent on casting more heals that will also return mana from illumination. What mp5 does get dwarfed by is max mana/replenishment/divine plea. Crit scales somewhat better than mp5 because it gives enough % per rating point that when it multiplies all of the mana sources (mp5, replenish, divine plea etc) the increase in total mana is bigger than when you add some mana mp5 (which is multiplied by illumination but is still not enough to win).

There's a very common misconception that stats scale differently depending on how much you actually cast. This is not true, since the number of casts is limited by the amount of mana you have, and if you're taking mana into consideration it means you're considering a fight where you have the possibility of needing all your mana, and therefore the number of casts is directly calculated by the amount of mana you have (and the time you can spend casting to decide on HL:FoL ratio, but aside from slightly different crit rates they both get multiplied by the same illumination so time you can spend casting doesn't matter much as long as mana matters). You can't say "on this fight I only used 1/2 my mana, so illumination wasn't as good compared to mp5 as it was on another fight". On that fight where you didn't spend all your mana, so you didn't do the max healing you can do with your current gear, and therefore the data from that fight is irrelevant for upgrading gear to maximize the healing you can do.

Number of casts is not dependant on the fight, even if you don't use your full healing abilities it doesn't change which stats are good for a fight where you do need all your healing ability, and it's your healing ability you're trying to maximize, you're not trying to maximize the mana you had leftover at the end of the fight.

Pirjo · 04/07/09, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

There's a very common misconception that stats scale differently depending on how much you actually cast. This is not true, ...

"how much you actually cast" - What does this mean?
What does make a huge impact is "How much base mana cost spent per time unit"
mp5 is a static mana increase.
crit is a variable mana increase.
Short fights make int (max mana pool/fight time) and crit (constant HL spam) more powerful.

When people say "Illumination dwarfs mp5" what they are really saying is that under most fight conditions crit yields as much effective mp5 as the stat mp5, if not more, while yielding additional crit healing. Now if the fight is such that you are casting less then "1 HL per 2 seconds" then the stat mp5 will begin to yield more mana regen then crit. At that point you have to decide whether the additional healing from crits is preferred over the additional mana from mp5.

This leaves the dilemma, the one that plagues this entire thread, because there is no answer.
Assuming you are at the line where you have just enough mana to heal duration of the fight... improve your burst or improve your total healing done.?
Additional burst makes you more effective in a crucial moment, additional total healing done lets you spare heals elsewhere, or do more tank heal spam to make the tank damage smoother.

galzohar · 04/07/09, 9:16 PM

Just because WWS shows you a lot more mana returns from illumination compared to mp5 it doesn't mean anything about the value of crit as a stat compared to mp5.

The misconception is that people think that the rate at which you spend mana depends on complicated fight mechanic details / playstyle / whatever, but for gear comparisons what matters is the rate at which you CAN spend mana, not the rate at which you actually spend it. The rate at which you CAN spend mana is only dependant on how much mana you have available.

The only question that has no answer is "burst VS efficiency". From an efficiency perspective there's no argument about which stats are best unless you start making overhealing arguments which as I've explained are a lot more complicated than what people make them out to be and actually work against more than just the stat they claim is better/worse. When it comes to burst healing there's also no argument (other than the definition of "burst" - "reliable burst" or "average burst", though in reality both serve a purpose, depending on the fight).

The statements that claim crit scales differently depending on the fight have absolutely no basis. I mean yeah it depends on the fight but not in the way people claim it to be.

In short, please use rawr before you try to re-invent holy paladin theorycrafting....

kadas · 04/08/09, 2:38 PM

I've seen (and shared) a lot of disappointment over current Ulduar itemization and the lack of crit/haste pieces and prevalence of mp5. i understand that we haven't seen all the available loot, etc, but just looking at what we have I'm starting to think that mp5 will be required because of the haste "soft" cap.

I added up the amount of haste values of all crit/haste Ulduar plate, mail and misc pieces:

Plate
Breastplate of the Devoted : level 239 Chest (XT-002-25-Hard)
Ancient Iron Heaume: level 226 Head (Iron Council-25)

Mail
Runeshaper's Gloves: level 226 Hands (Iron Council-25)
Belt of the Fallen Wyrm: level 226 Waist (Razorscale-25)
Bindings of Winter Gale: level 239 Wrist (Hodir-25-Hard)

Misc
Pyrelight Circle: level 226 Ring (Ignis-25)
Charm of Meticulous Timing: level 239 Neck (XT-002-25-Hard)

I then included T8 shoulders and pants (since the T7 4pc bonus is broken by the crit/haste "BIS" gear above) and filled in gaps with current 213/226 gear. Note that i did include two haste/mp5 items; the T8 pants and Charm of Meticulous Timing. The total amount of haste came out to 703 or 21.09%; well over the cap of 687 (20.6%). No haste gems are included.

Given that any haste beyond this will not lower the global cool-down below one second, why would we continue to gear pure int/crit/haste? It appears more reasonable to gear for crit primarily, haste secondarily until 687 is reached, and then mp5 after that. I wanted to check with you guys to make sure I'm understanding the haste cap correctly, as there are many knowledgeable players out there saying that all mp5 gear should be completely avoided and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that given the above numbers.

Tzeni · 04/08/09, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by kadas

I wanted to check with you guys to make sure I'm understanding the haste cap correctly, as there are many knowledgeable players out there saying that all mp5 gear should be completely avoided and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that given the above numbers.

No knowledgeable player would or has said that. Indeed, looking at the haste numbers we've already achieved it seems to make little sense to NOT take MP5 on gear.

galzohar · 04/08/09, 5:19 PM

Because when you mostly cast HL, you don't care much if haste doesn't lower your GCD further.

kadas · 04/08/09, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Because when you mostly cast HL, you don't care much if haste doesn't lower your GCD further.

Good point. We don't want to lower the cast time under one second either though, correct? At 50% haste we're looking at 1.75 seconds, with Light's grace taking it down to 1.25. We'd need another 7.14% haste (I think) to shave off that 0.25 seconds, so 238 more haste. that puts our target haste rating at 925 to get Holy Light down to one second. (Numbers are not my friends, so verification on this point would be helpful

I'm not sure if 925 haste is a reasonable goal considering no other spell we use would be affected by the additional 238 haste. Perhaps for Icecrown... Definitely an interesting point though - if the gear is available from Ulduar to get a one second Holy Light without sacrificing Int/Crit then I'll be highly tempted.

Tifordin · 04/08/09, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by kadas

Good point. We don't want to lower the cast time under one second either though, correct? At 50% haste we're looking at 1.75 seconds, with Light's grace taking it down to 1.25. We'd need another 7.14% haste (I think) to shave off that 0.25 seconds, so 238 more haste. that puts our target haste rating at 925 to get Holy Light down to one second. (Numbers are not my friends, so verification on this point would be helpful

I'm not sure if 925 haste is a reasonable goal considering no other spell we use would be affected by the additional 238 haste. Perhaps for Icecrown... Definitely an interesting point though - if the gear is available from Ulduar to get a one second Holy Light without sacrificing Int/Crit then I'll be highly tempted.

I think you're neglecting to include JotP, a "free" 15% haste which can be assumed to be always present.

Pirjo · 04/08/09, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by kadas

Good point. We don't want to lower the cast time under one second either though, correct? At 50% haste we're looking at 1.75 seconds, with Light's grace taking it down to 1.25. We'd need another 7.14% haste (I think) to shave off that 0.25 seconds, so 238 more haste. that puts our target haste rating at 925 to get Holy Light down to one second.

925 Haste is incorrect. Light's Grace is calculated before haste not after.

The equation is:
[Base Value - Light's Grace]/([ret aura][wrath of air][JotP][1+%HasteGear]) = [cast time]
so if you do the math for raid buffed - 1 sec cast time:
[2.5-0.5]/([1.03][1.05][1.15][1+%HasteGear]) = [1]
1.61=[1+%HasteGear] <-This is your 0% haste from gear cast time
0.61=%HasteGear
That's right, you need 61% haste to get to 1 sec HL. So roughly 2k haste to hard cap...

FoL soft cap is so easy to reach because
[1.5]/(1.03*1.05*1.15*[1+%HasteGear])=1
1.206=[1+%HasteGear] <-This is your 0% haste from gear cast time
0.206=%HasteGear
So you only need 20.6% haste to get 1 sec FoL.

You will never HL haste cap under normal conditions. (no gimmicks/bloodlust/procs)

kadas · 04/09/09, 8:59 AM

925 Haste is incorrect. Light's Grace is calculated before haste not after.

Ah, thank you for the correction. Given the amount of haste needed to actually cap, aiming for the 687 soft cap seems to make a bit more sense. At least Scale of the Fates is not completely worthless to us (which I had originally believed).

Goldelox · 04/09/09, 12:10 PM

Having read through many pages of posts, I am still at a loss. My overheal amounts are always 2x my effective heals and I am constantly on the bottom of the stupid recount charts. So basically 200k heals will equate to 400k overheal result.

I have no problems doing heroic dungeons of any sort and am highly regarded as an excellant healer... but Raids are a different story. There are other pally's that undergear myself and are always in one of the top 3 spots whereas I'm either 4th or 5th (often last even after a new level 80 holy priest). My HPS only shows about 1200-1400 whereas the other pally is in the 1.7- 2k range? This would be in 25-man raids and it doesn't matter who the other pally is... they will always have higher results in meters.

Why am I not pulling higher numbers? My Fol of light is between 3-4.5 k, my HL 9k with a crit of 15-16k... then of course trinkets, talents etc. kick in and those numbers increase. My rotation is generally divine favor + holy shock crits 7k plus with an "infusion of Light" FoL for 5K then a 15k HL... that's usually my rotation, depending on the amount of damage being taken I will follow with Fol or HL. I also recently switched back to my Libram of Mending (level 70) over my Libram of Renewal... seems to benefit my situation more--- but maybe I am seriously wrong.

I know I need an increase in Haste, but before I regem I want to get practical advice if at all possible. Do I replace intell with SP or should I increase haste over SP? I generally use FoL to avoid overhealing, but was told that the other pally's use HL. I use beacon and SS on myself and/or OT. Generally use Seal of Wisdom/Light and Judge with Light. Glyphs kick in frequently... but it seems that all of these things go to overhealing (?)

As much as I may hate recount, it is a fact of life on my server. Any suggestions on how to increase my effective heals and produce higher results is greatly appreciated.

Goldelox on Silvermoon. Any and all criticism is welcomed but please be nice.