The Holy Paladin Guide for WotLK - Page 141

galzohar · 04/13/09, 10:03 PM

A X% increase in stats does not represent X% increase in effectiveness. Just use rawr to figure these sort of things out.

EvadDeWahr · 04/13/09, 10:45 PM

Considering that if you are not trying some hard modes in the first week or two you will be behind the curve, which means little or no loot upgrades. Given a lack of loot upgrades before these attempts. Did anyone try any of the hard modes without the Shirt of Uber? If so did you have to fiddle with your gear to optimise it for any of the fights?

• Mex · 04/13/09, 10:56 PM

On the subject of 'burst' healing, there are a couple of instances in Ulduar where tanks will need to be heavily spammed for short periods. Off the top of my head I can already think of ...

Iron Council -- Fusion Punch.
Hodir -- Frozen Blows.
Mimiron -- Plasma Blast.

All of these abilities will almost certainly kill a tank not using CDs within 2 seconds, and will require very heavy healing to survive.

thedudeabides · 04/14/09, 12:17 PM

Alright, 3.1 is live today. My understanding after reading this thread is that we have several options:

51/20/0
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...3&version=9733

This picks up 3/3 Dev aura, which seems to be more applicable to 10 mans with less probablity of prot paladin or tree druid. This also seems to make the most use out of 4p bonus. Obviously this gives the situational use of Divine sacrifice to reduce raid wide damage.

51/5/15
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

This specs into crit, but not PoJ. This appears to be the base spec for general healing encounters. No improved sacred shield

51/3/17
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

Betting on the most heals being over-heals anyways, this drops % heal to pick up PoJ.

Not having done Ulduar on the PTR, i will probably go with 51/3/17 to learn the encounters, as mobility will hopefully give me a slight buffer. If/when i achieve the 4p and see actual numbers, i will likely switch to 51/20/0. Further, it is my understanding that we are still gemming entirely for int, though 51/20/0 and 4p may make gemming for spell viable.

This was simply a summary of the PTR discussion as i understand it. please correct me if i am wrong.

Kyrilon · 04/14/09, 12:40 PM

So, based on the above, Sanctity of Battle is right out, then? Seems like that would still be a nice boost to mana efficiency.

Kallell · 04/14/09, 12:44 PM

Assuming a fight just over 4 minutes long and a ret paladin in the raid, isn't Aura Mastery a worthwhile talent? Seems like 10 second bursts of 3% extra raid damage would be nice, and given a fight slightly over 4 minutes this could be used 3 times. Not worth it, worth it?

I'm mainly concerned with 10man Ulduar.

thedudeabides · 04/14/09, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kallell

Assuming a fight just over 4 minutes long and a ret paladin in the raid, isn't Aura Mastery a worthwhile talent? Seems like 10 second bursts of 3% extra raid damage would be nice, and given a fight slightly over 4 minutes this could be used 3 times. Not worth it, worth it?

I'm mainly concerned with 10man Ulduar.

I was under the impression that aura mastery only improved the "base" effect of other auras. so, it won't add extra healing to 3/3 Dev aura. as the 3% damage increase in Ret is an "improved" aura, aura mastery won't effect it.

I would like to see data on Sanctity of Battle vs. 3% more healing.

gcbirzan · 04/14/09, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by thedudeabides

Alright, 3.1 is live today. My understanding after reading this thread is that we have several options:

First of all, what's wrong with 51/0/20? And, secondly, get Blessed Hands instead of improved BoW. BoW doesn't stack with shamans' totems anymore.

thedudeabides · 04/14/09, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pirjo

Taking a quick look at rawr in my current gear:
Heal done 1% = 56 SP per point (+healing on self effect) (-sacred shield absorb numbers)
Crit 1% . . . .= 45 Crit per point

My point is that these talents are worth the same amount of stat points. It is well known that SP increases your burst healing by 2.5-3 times more then crit does (assuming int gemmed gear, raid buffs). So saying, "they both give healing done but 1 gives regen" is not a logical argument.

Rawr spells it out nicely, crit will allow you more casts of HL, SP will increase the healing done by each cast by more on average. Just put your gear in, do the raid buff thing and equip different battlemaster's trinkets.

In the end, rawr's message to me was that their overall healing done (battlemasters 111 SP and 95 crit) difference was favored crit slightly ([crit] 150 value vs. [sp] 136 value), while the burst healing was drastic ([SP] 56 vs [crit] 23).

So crit's regen effect/crit healing amounts in an endurance fights gives you 10% more effective healing per stat point, while SP gives 140% more burst healing done per stat point. Crit is 10% better for overall healing done then divinity per point, while divinity provides 140% more burst healing then crit talents per point.

These are the numbers, form your own opinions on what to do with them, but leave the "that's just overheal" arguments in your own head, because it isn't always OH, typically it is the full cast that is OH, followed by a full cast that is effective heal, not some constant % of the spell where additional healing per spell means nothing.

In response to 51/0/20, there is a discussion on p79 covering Crit vs. Heal and the topic of overheal. Either appears "viable" and neither is "wrong".

It's a personal choice to get improved BoW, as i don't consistently run with or in range of a shaman. i am still trying to utilize hand of sacrifice.

Kallell · 04/14/09, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by thedudeabides

I was under the impression that aura mastery only improved the "base" effect of other auras. so, it won't add extra healing to 3/3 Dev aura. as the 3% damage increase in Ret is an "improved" aura, aura mastery won't effect it.

I would like to see data on Sanctity of Battle vs. 3% more healing.

Sigh, I forgot this minor yet EVER SO IMPORTANT detail about this almost-awesome talent. Time to redo my talents again. Sorry for posting a bit of misleading information.

aquanda · 04/14/09, 1:21 PM

The primary use of Aura Mastery that I can see would be for increasing the Resist amount for Shadow/Fire/Frost Aura. There was a post in the last several pages which detailed at least one fight where this would become useful. And plus, it's only 1 talent point. I would rather get Aura Mastery just for shits than 2/2 BH.

Mox · 04/14/09, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by gcbirzan

First of all, what's wrong with 51/0/20? And, secondly, get Blessed Hands instead of improved BoW. BoW doesn't stack with shamans' totems anymore.

From rawr, 51/5/15 slighty beats out 51/0/20 in overall healing, but the longer the fight the closer they get. I'll be going with 51/0/20 with aura mastery and 1/2 BH.

On the subject of Imp BoW though, on a 6min fight the talent adds ~1296mana, thats only 16.6% of the mana LoH would give if you used it, which you most likely would have by the end of a 6 min fight (assuming you needed to in the first place), and by having Imp LoH chances are by time you get to the same point in the next try you'll have it to use again.

Elastic · 04/14/09, 2:44 PM

51/2/18 if you really want the 3 percent crit
or
51/5/15 will probably be my spec for now.

but im not totally sure because of the change in HL glyph. i really dont understand it right now ..."range updated"
if its the same 10% heal 8yards but cant crit i think paladins might start seeing mp5 as more valuable. currently my gear avoids mp5.

vorda · 04/14/09, 3:15 PM

The HL glyph change is just added to notes since it was a hotfix a while ago. Nothing changes about the range.

Eviver · 04/14/09, 3:35 PM

Looking at how gear compares from the known PTR loot I think there might be a strong possibility we won't drop 4 pc t7 for a LONG LONG while (Ala Prenerf T5) unless 4pct8 turns out to be really really good. Right now I'm thinking I'm going to keep 4pc T7 with Chest, Legs, Shoulders, Gloves and easily pick up the T8 or 226 Plate helm. Eventually picking up the Uber 239 chest and swapping back to a T7 helm for 4pc with a possibility of using t8 shoulders and helm with t7 gloves and pants for 2pc/2pc The tier 8 gear by itself does not look great and some might even be downgrades even with the ilevel difference. The only non tier piece in a tier slot that appeal to me is a pair of ele shaman gloves everything else that has decent sp and crit seems to have a lot of spirit taking up item value and i would be real hesitant to wear spirit gear for a minor upgrade that doesnt help with a set bonus. I'm a little worried about longevity but I think I'll probably try to pick up some high int,crit,mp5 items for an alternative set for long fights