It seems completely rediculous that a trinket proc costs mana, but yes this 6% base mana is exactly what Im losing.
Indeed it is strange that the trinket proc costs mana, but it is still really powerful proc, perhaps the best for Holy and looks to be the best for Ret.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Indeed it is strange that the trinket proc costs mana, but it is still really powerful proc, perhaps the best for Holy and looks to be the best for Ret.
If you use DP when it procs this makes up for the mana cost, more or less.
You can't use DP when it procs, since it procs on average every 45-50 seconds. So Divine Plea will still be down from using it last time, and delaying DP would be a huge waste of mana.
You can't use DP when it procs, since it procs on average every 45-50 seconds. So Divine Plea will still be down from using it last time, and delaying DP would be a huge waste of mana.
Not necessarily. If you know you'll be hurting for mana, it isn't hard to keep track of the ICD on the Greatness card and see if you can potentially hold off using Divine Plea for a few seconds to get a greater benefit from it. Holding it off for more than say 10 seconds wouldn't be advisable, of course.
And about the proc costing mana: I think it's to balance out free mana from replenishment - with 100% uptime during the proc, we'd be looking at over 200 mana gained from replenishment.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
Could you please include possible enchants (especially those for shoulders and head, which enchanters can not do)?
I've read that icewalker would be better than greater vitality, as we don't enchant for mp5 anymore and hit+crit would be good for judgements+overall. For the chest, beta had 250 mana enchant (exceptional mana) which does not exist in live, so I'm guessing 10 stats is the way to go. I had SP enchant on my weapon, but now that I read how intellect is fast being the most priority to enhance, I'll go for it as soon as I get rid of a few more lvl70 epics. I just turned to holy from Retri, so I'm pretty much in the beginning. I'd like to see a list of possible good enchant choices for holy paladins.
Edit: I've just seen that 8th page of this very thread has good info on that (some links and the info that rawr can tell more on enchants) I still think it's a good idea to include them in the OP, like the glyphs and buff food already on OP
Last edited by Sansei : 12/10/08 at 8:14 AM.
Reason: 8th page pwns!
Not necessarily. If you know you'll be hurting for mana, it isn't hard to keep track of the ICD on the Greatness card and see if you can potentially hold off using Divine Plea for a few seconds to get a greater benefit from it. Holding it off for more than say 10 seconds wouldn't be advisable, of course.
And about the proc costing mana: I think it's to balance out free mana from replenishment - with 100% uptime during the proc, we'd be looking at over 200 mana gained from replenishment.
Say if the first time it procs you use Divine Plea. The next time there will be 15 sec left on DP cd, so you can't use. The third time there will be 30 seconds left, so you still can't. Fourth time there will be 45 seconds left. The fifth they will line up again, and you can get full benefit. So, the best you can do is have DP used during 1/4 of the procs. If you delay DP you lose huge amounts of mana that doesn't make it worth it.
So say if I have a starting mana pool of 30,000 then I get 7,500 mana (625mp5) from using DP on cooldown. On a DP with the proc up I gain 8,923 mana. If DP is up for every 4th proc then I get 654mp5 from it, or 30mp5 more with the Card. The best way you can delay is use DP on every other proc, effective 1.5min DP CD, and that would reduce DP to 495mp5.
The proc costs 263 mana, with replenishment it is a still a mana loss.
You also get ~96 SP and almost 3% crit from the proc in addition to the small mana gain. Considering it's rather powerful 90 int on the base item, it's still a very good trinket.
Just a few questions i've been longing a direct response to...
I'm torn on which stat I should prioritize when it comes to gemming. Am I correct in assuming +int till you hit ~25k mana buffed, then focus spell power/crit to aid transition to HL primary rotation is ideal?
Secondly, what do you guys use to track Sacred Shield? I've added it to Grid through the Add Buff option, but it seems to track it inaccurately.
Finally, to the folks sustaining HL spam, what kind of stats do you run, for my 10 man group we usually run with 2 healers so the HoT FoL glyph would be nice to ease vortex's on malygos and aoe dmg in various encounters in 5man(lol)/10man/25mans (not that it's a problem, we've completed it all without it already).
P.S. How many healers do you folks run with for the various 25 man instances? ~6 seems to be the magic number for at least naxx.
You can't use DP when it procs, since it procs on average every 45-50 seconds. So Divine Plea will still be down from using it last time, and delaying DP would be a huge waste of mana.
You can't use DP every time the proc is up, however you can every second proc... from the few WWS I've scrutinized, most of us are averaging a DP cooldown around 1.5 minutes, rather than the minimum 1 minute. That would put it in line with hitting the DP every second proc for an extra 1100 mana everytime.
I'm torn on which stat I should prioritize when it comes to gemming. Am I correct in assuming +int till you hit ~25k mana buffed, then focus spell power/crit to aid transition to HL primary rotation is ideal?
My view on int gemming is as follows: If mana isn't an issue you should replace your Stam/Int/SP/crit/mp5 gear with Stam/Int/SP/crit/HASTE gear and continue to gem int. Based on napkin math and rawr spell power and haste will give you similar burst healing potential if you want - that becomes personal preference of faster reaction vs. higher HPM (I like SP>haste).
Originally Posted by CK396
Secondly, what do you guys use to track Sacred Shield? I've added it to Grid through the Add Buff option, but it seems to track it inaccurately.
The link to the add-on "class timers" is in the OP of this thread you might want to take a look at that. I'm currently using DoTimer for these things, though it gets kindof clunky when you spam sacred shield...* DoTimer - Addons - Curse
I'm really not a fan of Haste stacking because of the high amount of haste we have baseline from buffs, then the haste that's already on the gear. If you are never finding yourself having mana problems, I think stacking SP is far better than haste. Here's some examples:
Base Haste = 24.37% (1.15 x 1.05 x 1.03)
Haste from Gear = 350 (10.67%)
Total Haste = 37.6% (1.15 x 1.05 x 1.03 x 1.1067)
FoL Cast Time = 1.09 sec
HL Caste Time = 1.45 sec (with LG up)
Using 5 gem slots as an example, you could either get 95 spell power, 80 haste, or 80 crit. Your new cast times would be FoL = 1.066 sec and HL = 1.42 sec. That's only a 0.025 and 0.03 second reduction in your cast time. Using those numbers, I'd much rather have 95 spell power or the 1.74% crit. My preff between SP and crit would be to go for spell power.
You can't use DP every time the proc is up, however you can every second proc... from the few WWS I've scrutinized, most of us are averaging a DP cooldown around 1.5 minutes, rather than the minimum 1 minute. That would put it in line with hitting the DP every second proc for an extra 1100 mana everytime.
As I said later in my post, that if you delay DP to cast in on every other proc you lose 165mp5 from chain casting DP without any procs. If you are in a situation where you would benefit from the extra mana then you want to be chain casting DP.
You might be observing a 1.5min effective DP cooldown for a few reasons. Time waiting to actually get below 75% mana, or the fight is almost over and high on mana so no need to take the healing penalty. Also on difficult fights you can't always choose when you want pop DP, because sometimes you just can't spare the GCD. So you could delay DP, and not even get to use it on a proc.
Its still a really good trinket, but not as amazing as it might seem at first.
What do you guys think about keeping the 2 piece Tier 6 bonus for quite a while at 80? Especially with a HL heavy playstyle & gearing, it is really an amazing bonus.
Difference comes out to 95 stam, 48 int, 31 crit, 17, haste, 48 healing, 3 mp5 vs 229.55 crit rating on Holy light from 2pc T6. In terms of item value the extra stats on the naxx25 loot is worth about 13 blue quality gems (with about 4 of those being pure stam gems) 229.55 crit rating comes out to about 14.35 [Smooth Autumn's Glow]. Factoring the 1% less crit you would have on Flash and shock from less int and actual crit rating on T6, 2pc still comes out ahead in output for a HL spec so unless stam is an issue 2pc Sunwell T6 is still worth it and possibly still better than anything that drops in current content.
As I said later in my post, that if you delay DP to cast in on every other proc you lose 165mp5 from chain casting DP without any procs. If you are in a situation where you would benefit from the extra mana then you want to be chain casting DP.
You might be observing a 1.5min effective DP cooldown for a few reasons. Time waiting to actually get below 75% mana, or the fight is almost over and high on mana so no need to take the healing penalty. Also on difficult fights you can't always choose when you want pop DP, because sometimes you just can't spare the GCD. So you could delay DP, and not even get to use it on a proc.
Its still a really good trinket, but not as amazing as it might seem at first.
It's understood that delaying DP is a net mana loss, I'm not arguing against that. But your second paragraph is entirely my point, for whatever reason, DP is rarely being popped on cooldown in parses I've seen. This includes some of my own, as well as that of others. Because it's not off the GCD, DP requires a free GCD to cast, add to that the fact that we have approximately 10 GCD worth of upkeep per 2 minute period and you can understand how DP might get pushed back even when sitting at 50% mana. I might prioritize it below that point, but above 50% maintaining SS, JotP, SoW and BoL may take priority. The overlap in all these short cooldowns, along with the reality that healing isn't like a DPS rotation where HL/FoL/Reseal/Judge/BoL times can be planned is what's leading to DP having an observed cooldown higher than 1 minute. In that case, the trinket becomes more valuable than once every 5th cast.
So I suppose the conclusion would be, if your diligent in casting DP on cooldown, every cooldown, then no, this trinket isn't so great, though the extra crit, 96SP and baseline int are still good. However if you see yourself slip from a DP/min, this trinket's value increases the closer you get to a 90s effective DP cooldown. Additionally, it should be noted that the relative benefit for regen scale inversely with the amount of int on your gear, so lower geared paladins would see a more pronounced effect.
All that being said, I've got my [Soul of the Dead] and [Forethought Talisman] for now and won't be spending the nearly 6k gold this trinket would run me on my server. In the future I'm hoping to acquire [Illustration of the Dragon Soul], though I'll probably wait for most of our casters to have it first.
Like already said, there are 2 possible causes for not popping DP on cooldown:
1. You have way too much mana and don't need it.
2. You can't pop it right now.
Both of these arguments work better against that trinket than for it. Yes it's still good because just the 90 int alone is pretty awesome plus you get some sp and crit, and sometimes it will stack with DP - but you can't count it as something that stacks with DP any more than once every ~5-8 DP casts.
My point was it is not always easy to cast DP right when you want it, and if you don't do it on cooldown you most likely won't be able to time it with a card proc due to various reasons.
Theoretically, sure, both those arguments work better against the trinket than for it. What I was commenting on is empirical evidence of possible coincidence in effective cooldowns that might lend more use to the trinket than we might otherwise think. If paladins in a particular raid, for whatever reason, are in fact experiencing consistent 1.5 min effective cooldown on DP, than the trinket is more valuable than theorycrafting would estimate. That was my point.
Theoretically, sure, both those arguments work better against the trinket than for it. What I was commenting on is empirical evidence of possible coincidence in effective cooldowns that might lend more use to the trinket than we might otherwise think. If paladins in a particular raid, for whatever reason, are in fact experiencing consistent 1.5 min effective cooldown on DP, than the trinket is more valuable than theorycrafting would estimate. That was my point.
Just because the cooldown averages out to 1.5min, doesn't mean you will use it every 1.5min. It is much more likely there will be 1.2 between one, then 1.8 between another. Which reduces it back just the chance that the proc will be up, and not being able to effectively time it with DP.
Glyph of Holy Light now affects friendly targets in a larger radius.
The PTR patch notes are out, only one previously unmentioned change for Holy. Increased range on GHL procs, even with it current form it can procs a lot. I wonder what the radius has been increased to, I an guessing it will be something like 10 yards.
Sounds awesome imo, I know on some fights i'll throw out a HL on a group of stacked people just for a little bit of AoE healing, Loatheb being one of these. A larger range will definently make it more interesting
Sounds awesome imo, I know on some fights i'll throw out a HL on a group of stacked people just for a little bit of AoE healing, Loatheb being one of these. A larger range will definently make it more interesting
I like nothing better than a Beacon on the MT, Judgement of Light on the boss, and tossing a Holy Light on a rogue or melee dps down a lot of health. Seeing all the green numbers at once on the screen is beautiful.
An increased range will definitely help, 5 yards is surprisingly small for larger bosses that have huge hitboxes.
First i have been reading about libram;s and there is a statment the the [Libram of Renewal] is the best one. Yet when you look at RAWR the [Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Justice] says is better. I am doing nax and trying to be a HL spamer instead of a FOL spammer. What do you think?
MP5 VS. HASTE
From what i gather i want to stack as much int and crit as possible but, alot of the gear has crit and int and i find myself choosing between MP5 and haste. I have never been a fan of haste but alot of gear has it. I currently have about 235 haste just from gear stats. Should i choose the gear with mp5 or haste. Also should i go back to FOL & HS spam. I have 2 other guy that have atleast 5% more crit than me and less haste and i cant keep up if i FOL spam since they are hitting on avg 500 more per FOL. If i spam HL they obviously cant keep up but my effective healing is still lower due to the burst. Need a little insite.
At a certain point in gear Libram of Renewal becomes far better, it is a matter of how much HL you can afford to cast vs. FoL you are forced to cast. Make sure all relevant buffs are active beyond the gear window or rawr.
MP5 VS HASTE as 5th stat on gear: I'm honestly building 2 sets.
MP5 set: Spam HL (mainly) the entire time to keep a tank up.
HASTE fight: Contains breaks where you can't/don't have to heal. Since there is no possible way to go oom since you've gemmed everything int (you did gem int everywhere reasonable right?) - skip the mp5 on gear in favor of haste.
Difference comes out to 95 stam, 48 int, 31 crit, 17, haste, 48 healing, 3 mp5 vs 229.55 crit rating on Holy light from 2pc T6. In terms of item value the extra stats on the naxx25 loot is worth about 13 blue quality gems (with about 4 of those being pure stam gems) 229.55 crit rating comes out to about 14.35 [Smooth Autumn's Glow]. Factoring the 1% less crit you would have on Flash and shock from less int and actual crit rating on T6, 2pc still comes out ahead in output for a HL spec so unless stam is an issue 2pc Sunwell T6 is still worth it and possibly still better than anything that drops in current content.
I have the T6 bracers + waist combo with SP+Int gems coming out better than any other available wrist/waist in game at the moment. Well this is according to rawr model.
12/10/08, 2:07 AM
Similar Threads
