Endoscient

With my gear setup in Rawr, [Libram of Renewal] is twice as good as [Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Justice]. I am not sure what setup you are using to cause it to not rate it better, but make sure you have all proper raid buffs selected. If you still think it is wrong post your character file, and I can look at it.

 

sickening

The healing from the glyph is great. This change worries a little bit though. This will make the heal from the glyph even better and people will pay more attention to it. I am enjoying the healing efficiency so much lately I have a feeling something is going to get nerfed!

On a unrelated note, my big hurdle lately is trying to get my other palys to use hand of sacrifice and sacred shield. The both become more useful the better your gear gets and are way too under used. I am constantly poking at the ret paly to use it in certain situations when mine is down.

 

Silmeria

Don't be selfish, trying to cover up questionable game mechanics just makes the game worse. The glyph change is a still questionable especially in light of infinite holy light spam, as it's just going to be more effective healing on top of what we already put it out. I understand the change because the utility of even the 5-yard version is questionable in the face of many of the larger hitboxes in raids. However, it should be a very welcome change in 5-mans and 10-mans if you so choose to leverage it specifically.

Also, your ret paladin doesn't want to bother with those abilities because he is trying to do his maximum dps, and interrupting a rotation for utility on a class that's already fairly GCD locked (especially on undead bosses) and mana-limited is terribly non-optimal. You should only really call on your DPS to use utility when things have officially "hit the fan". Mobs dying sooner is always to your benefit across the board.

 

Endoscient

Also Ret's Sacred Shield will only absorb 500 a proc, since it is bugged and doesn't scale from spell power from Sheath of Light. Makes it even more of a waste for them to use.

 

• frmorrison

Indeed, especially for 5-man healing Paladins, 5 yards is not enough, but 10 is fine to help AoE heal in heroics, and would make HoL really easy.


Interestingly, one point in Beta the item had said it had a 100 yards (it was still 5 yards), so I am glad the devs did not forget about changing it.


I don't think that is a bug with Ret's SS. The spell has it uses for Ret, but it should never be used if a Holy Pally is around.


The issue with BoSac is the 30% damage taken can kill the Ret if healers don't know it is casting. This issue is somewhat fixed by removing Forbanance from Wrath, so a Ret can use BoSanc and can bubble if it is too much damage.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

galzohar

If the ret is communicating with his healers about it, it could give him a huge, much needed mana boost.

 

Xetron

I fear that this patch is actually not a very much thought through designed piece by blizzard. The effect will be that with the druid and priest nerfs we will easily top the healmeters by huge margins. Be the significance of that as it will, the other classes will surely whine about it in a very disturbing way so that in the end we will get another nerf to illumination.
As my crit chance on Holy Light is at the 60% mark (with the for me regular boomkin) it gets harder and harder to actually go oom even when spamming Holy Light for a whole fights length...

Mind my words

 

Corronach

^ I agree, the meters will seem really imbalanced after this patch, although I suspect Divine Plea will get changed instead of Illumination.

Another interesting patch note is that the illustration of the dragon soul is being nerfed from 26 per cast to 18, which imo knocks it down from being a must have trinket.

 

Kyoghin

Edit: Already noted on the change to the Gylph. Apologies for my slow awareness.

Blizzard has said that they're backing away from heavy raid dmg encounters so this might necessarily cause paladins to always top the meters for future content.

 

bruce22

I check my buffs and they look fine can there be another setting i am missing i am fairly new to RAWR.

I also dont know how to link it to you (i am a noob)

 

• frmorrison

If you mess with Plea's mana returns, it destroys Ret and Holy, while Illumination only nerfs one spec.

180 spell power up all the time is still the best trinket, just it isn't a huge difference.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

bruce22

Sorry for the double post selected all my raid buffs but still not correct am i missing any other options? I am fairly new to RAWR I am also not sure how to post my charecter file?

[

 

Endoscient

Why would they change Illumination when it is Intellect that is giving huge amounts of mana not crit? They could easily change Divine Plea without nerfing Ret/Prot, have it restore a flat amount of base mana, and have it scale some (but not as much as now) with max mana.

bruce22, you save your character as a .xml file, just upload that somewhere or copy & paste it in a PM to me.

 

Arfea

A much simpler solution would be to overwrite HoSAC with freedom or other hand spell (salvation? )

Aka Meaniemoo.

 

sdre

Really informative thread. Just a quick question, what do you guys think of the T7 4 set bonus? I got my shoulders today, and I'm losing around 1.5% of crit just to fulfill the bonus.

Much thanks.

 

Silmeria

Well, they could tag any of the gears to bring down the HL loop (at least temporarily until one of the other untouched mechanics bridges the gap). If you look at any Stasis parse of a spam scenario, here's the typical mana regen payout: Patchwerk : Silmeriah

So, there's some "logic" to nerfing illumination, but I agree that I don't think the nerf should necessarily be there, since that mp5 figure is grossly inflated due to a stand-still spam scenario and it's also typically only really viable in 25-man raid settings with full raid buffs (all the crit synergies really inflates this too). The regeneration mechanics related to int can certainly be questionable, but really what's at fault here is the massive stat pouring they've put into the first tier of gearing. Everyone is dancing around with higher mechanics than every seen in Sunwell (30% base crit before talents/raid buffs is borderline incredible).

If you want to stem HL spamming, then you must break one of the mana regeneration gears for the interim since everything works so cohesively. Illumination would possibly be too severe, replenishment is too global, so that leaves plea. I've mentioned it before, but to reiterate: the most painless change would probably be forcing holy paladins to be conscious of when they choose to divine plea. In this vein, the 20% coefficient on the healing penalty is probably ripe for the picking.

Consequently, a base mana change would probably work fairly seamlessly as well.

 

Endoscient

Most of the reason crit rates are soo high is not because of gear at all. We have access to 13% crit that we didn't before from Talents/Buffs, with the 8% from Ret talents and 5% from raid wide Moonkin Aura/Elemental Oath.

I think it would be quite stupid if they just upped the Healing penalty, we could still spam Holy Light. The potential problem is how much mana Holy Paladins can have if they stack Intellect, so just deal with it directly and lower that amount.

 

Rydaa

Personally, I don't think its gonna be a nerf to the way int scales for us with divine plea, replenishment ect. The largest chunk of mana returned on any fight is still illumination, even if there is more moving around ect. I feel the nerfs are more likely to be targeted at the gear/items that allow us to reduce the mana cost of holy light, (Glyph SoW, 4 piece, libram), or how these items interact with illumination (returning 60% of the initial cost, not the new)

Crit rates are higher than we have ever seen them before, but its not all from the additional 8 from ret talents. Since spell power and healing are the same its opened up so many more gear choices with crit on it. We can put crit on our helm/shoulder enchants, so many more rings/necks/capes/wpns ect have crit on it, and so on.

Personally, I am stacking crit over int, I am not convinced int is enough of mana return to stack over crit, and comparing the parse Silmeria posted compared to my own, my assumptions seem reasonable so far (where my mana from illumination + plea + replenishment + totems was greater in nearly identical time frame). I also enjoy the bursty nature of not only my holy lights, but IoL proccing that much more.

 

Saladin

I hope I'm not just sticking my head in the sand here, but I'm not convinced that a nerf is going to be likely or necessary--at least not without heavy compensation.

Paladins are the single most niched healing class in the game. We may be able to tank heal better than a shaman, but a shaman can tank heal better than we can raid heal. Priests and druids are both valued for their versatility, and that's really what it comes down to. A shaman, druid, or priest, can heal effectively in any position, while a paladin can only heal fantastically in one position and horribly in every other. As someone else said already, the ONLY thing that a paladin brings to the table is raw healing throughput. We're supposed to be the healers who never go oom and keep the tank up for as long as the fight takes, whether it's 3 minutes or 10, because quite frankly we cannot do anything else.

I understand we're all a little gunshy because of what happened in mid-BC, but Blizzard has acknowledged that those tactics were too severe and they don't want to repeat the debacle that BT/Sunwell was for holy paladins. Considering that the community has been asking for four years now for 1) hots, 2) aoe heals, 3) more than 3 heals, and Blizzard has stonewalled on the "tank healer" position, they cannot afford to start farting with our throughput. Unless, as I stated before, they're willing to compensate with more versatility, which they have all but sworn never to do.

Note that I'm not ranting about how horrible our position is--it seems we're starting to settle into the "nice, but not required" niche that promotes true class balance. I'm okay with that. I'm even happy with that. It's just that paladins are in the position now that prot warriors were in during Burning Crusade: the best boss MT's, but absolutely deplorable aoe tanks. What did Blizzard do in this case? They opened up the MT position to more classes, but also made warriors capable aoe tanks. I have enough faith in Blizzard to believe the same will happen here, if anything happens at all. Either paladins will be left alone in our little niche cubbyhole, or our niche will be diminished in exchange for a wider arsenal of healing capabilities. Whichever way you look at it, we win.

Now, that being considered, I've seen a lot of paladins cockily referencing Beacon and SS as all a paladin needs to cope with aoe damage. And yes, I do love these tools, they're a huge boon and do allow us to handle things we simply couldn't before. However, I'm not sure how they're sufficing to aoe heal in a raid environment, so perhaps I am doing something wrong. Obviously, we beacon the tank so that we can heal the raid without fear of him dying while we do so. After that though, things get hairy.

There is the option of just straight FOL spamming everyone who's taking aoe damage, which may be acceptable provided the damage is neither heavy nor instant (ie, Spirit Bolts on Zuljin, Vortex on Malygos). Even though either 10 or 25 people will be taking damage depending on the raid size, let's just focus on a sample of 5 people, since that's pretty much the aoe heal standard.

For 5 people with fully hasted FOL spam, it would take 5 seconds to top them all off.

However, if we try to SS/FOL combo those same 5 people, we come up with a whopping 10 seconds of casting spent on just 5 people. Yet this approach has the added benefit of absorbing damage and jolting up our crit chance.

I doubt there's a clear answer here of "you should always use FOL spam" or "you should always SS first, then FOL spam." It seems like there are specific scenarios wherein the first method would be favored and then certain scenarios wherein the second method would be favored. How do we define these scenarios? For those paladins who are forced to cope with aoe damage, when do you find yourself using SS and when do you find yourself just mouseovering FOL as fast as you can?

 

kaboom

I´m a bit confused and not really sure how to get this question right. But in concern of gearchoice, i seem to often pick mal/cloth items instead of plate just because i dont get why we get sp+mp5+haste instead of for example sp+crit+haste. I´ve read a lot in this thread and others as well.

Mabye it´s me who is bad at getting it right in my head, but everytime i´m offered an upgrade i seem to lose at least 1% crit in favor of haste or mp5. We are currently only running 5-/10-mans and the gear i personally really want only comes from 25-man. Am i gearing wrong or is it just that gear-design is´nt as it should be?

My gameplay is moslty spamming hl´s as i find mana not to be an issue, only time mana is a bit strained is on sapph. We dont have a boomkin/shaman either to give us 5% crit in raids. I´m running with 1840 sp, 34% holy crit and 5,43% haste.

Somehow i see my self getting oom even faster if i stack more haste. I´d rather keep my hl´s as it is and chain it than have for example 1,5 sec hl´s and either stop casting or run oom from chaining it. We runt druid/paladin as healers and i´m basiclly always tank-healing.

 

Kyoghin

It's quite clear what roles certain healing class play during raids and blizzard has given their effort to try to level out those roles. However, going on the assumptions like Shamans will always be the better aoe healer than the paladin makes it quite subjective to that idea. What I'm trying to say is something along the similar lines of "bring the player, not the class".

I agree that I do enjoy that extra effort we have to put into the things we're not "ideally" meant to do like aoe raid healing. You can't really go on saying "well how come I can't aoe heal as well as a Shaman?". Fact is, you're not one. Healers will have their strengths and weaknesses in different levels but that's what makes them more versatile.

I don't have much to say about the gear choice we have. The ideal selections isn't available to us in every field of gameplay we do (ie. 5mans 10mans etc.) but I guess we have to cope with whats deserved for that level of gameplay.

 

burghy

Actually if they want to stop HL spam they should look for the reasons why it's needed: lack of a "rank 7-8 HL" spell and the requirement that tanks are topped of.

 

Evisolpxe

I can't really see why paladins mana should be nerfed at all. My paladin have almost the best gear I can get now and in normal fights like Sartharion and Malygos I'm not going below 60 % mana without using any pot or LoH on myself. Same goes for all other healingclasses in my guild and raid.

But for fights like Sartharion 10man 3 drakes alive it's pretty hard not to go oom. Last night was my first time and I had a hard time to keep the MT alive with breaths taking him down to 10 % HP. I was the only healer on him for most of the fight and I also keept BoL on our OT. I used DP on every CD with max of maybe 10 sec delay.

Our groups other 2 healers had a harder time keeping their mana up but that's also beacause they were healling the raid. I'm pretty sure that if they could heal the MT as good as a paladin can that they would have same or even better mana than paladins can.

Paladins have always been a MT healer. If you want to AOE heal people should roll another class. They gave us BoL so that we could heal 5man heroics with alot of Aoe. It isn't that hard at all if you have a group were people are not taking stupid damage.

EDIT: Also forgot to say that we didn't have a replenishment nor a mana-tide. I was also specced 51/20/0 for Divine guardian which prob will be used on hard encounters like this one. So there I lost 8 % crit. If I did have all of this my mana would have been better. But also the other healers mana would have been improved also.

 

sickening

I wasn't aware that sheath didn't affect sacred shield and that blows. I wasn't asking the ret to put out sacred anyway just more of the other holy paladins I raid with. I still have some flash of light spammers who need some more direction!

I am asking for 1 global cooldown every 2 minutes for a handful of fights that both benifits the raid and the paly's mana pool. Is that hard to understand? Maybe what you call "terribly non-optimal" is pretty extreme.

 

• frmorrison

More information on Illumination:
Currently its effect varies wildly with the spell. With Flash of Light, a crit will restore 123 mana/sec. With Holy Light, a crit will restore 306 mana/sec. Essentially, Illumination is almost three times as good with Holy Light than it is with Flash of Light.

If the devs want to nerf Illumination, change the returns per healing spell, instead of a blanket 60%. Hint: Shock/Flash would get more mana returned than HL.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.