Endoscient

You can get both the Ret crit talents and PoJ in the same Holy build if you don't need to get Kings. For a build with Imp BoW I gave up Aura Mastery and 1pt in Blessed Life for PoJ. Also PoJ is twice as good as the boot enchant.

Thanks Corronach, I am going to add a consumable section as well. Also I plan on adding Hand of Sacrifice and Judgement to the abilities section.

Potion of Nightmares is much better then its old brethren, it only lasts 6 sec and it can't be dispelled. There are many fights where I can easily have 6 sec of doing nothing, like during a short phase change. I am going definitely have a stock of both that and Runics for raids.

 

Corronach

This appears to be the best gem atm
Brilliant Dragon's Eye - Item - World of Warcraft
Can these be stacked 3 times if your a JC?

For non-JC:
Red Runed Cardinal Ruby - Item - World of Warcraft
Yellow Brilliant King's Amber - Item - World of Warcraft
Blue Lustrous Majestic Zircon - Item - World of Warcraft
Purple Royal Dreadstone - Item - World of Warcraft
Orange Luminous Flawless Ametrine - Item - World of Warcraft
Green Dazzling Eye of Zul - Item - World of Warcraft

Do you plan on adding a tradeskill section?

 

Endoscient

For trinkets Illustration of the Dragon Soul seems to be the best by far, 260 spell power seems op. Especially if you are able to refresh the buff by recasting a Seal. It drops from 25man Sartharion, but good luck fighting with dps casters for it.

I would go with Soul of the Dead or Je'Tze's Bell for my second trinket.

Yes, I will add a tradeskill section to show the benefits you gain from each.

 

Fielding

Thank you for the work you've done on this so far.

A few things I thought work mentioning. I've been considering working up a decent spreadsheet for holy paladins, depending on my class load and depending on the direction/updates of Rawr.

Also, I saw the mention of a few pvp builds. I'm not entirely a pve nerd and I'm somewhat seasoned in arena, (Gladiator title s2,s3,s4 and at least once in every bracket), so I don't think I'm 100% off in thinking that more people will be picking up Divine Purpose for some of their 2v2, possibly in 3v3 builds. I haven't done much arena since 3.0, thanks BG Ruin for being laggy, so both the builds I've come up with for 2v2/3v3 and 5v5 are all in theory. My 5v5 builds are very close, if not point for point, to what you posted. Thought for 2v2/3v3, I imagine any pvp build that I will be going 20 in ret for I'll go down the extra 2 for Divine Purpose.

Also, just to clarify, perhaps I think it is more powerful than it actually is, but they are going to leave it so we can HoF ourselves out of stuns and not just others?

I'm really happy to see this thread start off. Thanks =)

P.S. Ignore my armory, shows me as ret, but I was just grinding quests for achievements. I consider holy my main spec, even after tanking as much as I did in SW and my holy gear/experience is full sunwell before 3.0 nerfwell.

 

pope master

Does anyone have any experience using BoL + FoL glyph + a ton of haste in a raid healing type of setting? You should be able to maintain ~7+ HoTs, but I'm wondering how much overheal you're going to have and if its effective at all in a 25 man setting.

 

• frmorrison

Tradeskill information:

Herbalism
- Ability: Heals for 2000 over 5 Seconds, 3 minute cooldown (Wild Growth)
- Items:
--- Makes you vulnerable to magic, but increases your spell power by 200 for 10 sec, 1 Min Cooldown (Fire Seed consumable)

Skinning
- 25 Crit Rating

Alchemy
- % stat bonus + 100% Duration to flasks (Mixology) (Ignoring the 65 Int Flask)
--- Flask bonus = 13 MP5 or 37 SP
- % stat bonus + 100% Duration to elixirs (Mixology)
--- Elixir bonus (Battle) = 19 SP

- BOP Endless Potions (reusable item, usable in Arenas)
--- Restores 1680 to 2160 health and 400 to 600 mana, 3 Min Cooldown (Endless Rejuvenation Potion)
- BOP Trinkets with 40% bonus to potion effectiveness

Enchanting
- Ring Enchants (get 2):
--- 19 SP (Greater Spellpower)
- Cloak Enchants (I recall an enchanter only haste enchant but not the stats)

Jewelcrafting
- BOP Gems (can use up to 3 total, not unique, prismatic for easier socket bonuses)
--- 27 Crit Rating (Smooth Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Smooth King's Amber) = 7 Crit Rating
--- 27 Haste Rating (Quick Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Quick King's Amber) = 7 Haste Rating
--- 32 SP (Runed Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Runed Cardinal Ruby) = 9 SP
--- 11 MP5 (Lustrous Dragon's Eye)
--- --- bonus (vs. Lustrous Majestic Zircon) = 3 MP5
- BOP Trinkets

Inscription
- BOP shoulder enchants (also don't require exalted with The Sons of Hodir):
--- 61 SP, 6 MP5 (Master's Inscription of the Crag)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Scribe (Greater Inscription of the Crag)) = 36 SP
--- 61 SP, 15 Crit Rating (Master's Inscription of the Storm)
--- --- bonus (vs. non-Scribe (Greater Inscription of the Storm)) = 36 SP
- BOP Offhands (if you don't mind missing the shield)

Blacksmithing
- Glove socket (colourless)
- Bracer Socket (colourless)

Leatherworking
- Bracer Enchants:
--- 67 SP (Fur Lining: Spell Damage)
--- --- bonus (vs. Superior Spellpower enchant) = 37 SP

Tailoring
- BOP Cloak Enchants (doesn't stack with normal enchants):
--- a chance to restore 300 mana when you cast a spell (Darkglow Embroidery) with 45 second ICD

Healing Summary:
- Herbalism = 33.3SP (average, requires consumables)
- Skinning = 25 Crit rating
- Alchemy = 37 SP (Flask of the Frost Wyrm) OR 13 MP5 (Flask of Pure Mojo)
- Enchanting = 38 SP + Better Cloak Enchant?
- Jewelcrafting = 27 SP or 21 Crit Rating or 21 Haste Rating or or 9 MP5
--- Jewelcrafting = 49 SP (counts avoiding using 2 blue gems instead of 2 red gems for meta requirements)
- Blacksmithing = 46 SP or 21 Crit Rating or 21 Haste Rating or 16 MP5
- Leatherworking = 37 SP
- Inscription = 36 SP
- Tailoring = 18.75 MP5 vs whatever the normal healing cloak enchant?

 

Fielding

Something to think about when looking at professions, things that are 100% unique(ring enchants) and not just a better version of something (gems) are going to be worth more. Basically, you can't just look at what each profession gives and then rank them. You have to consider the alternative. For enchanting, afaik, the alternative is 0sp on rings, so it is a true gain for the entire value. For Jewelcrafting, the gems are +x to the widely available gems, so the amount listed on the gem isn't a true gain.

I used to be enc/jc for rings and unique gems. Then they introduced the new Alchemist's Stone and I stocked up on unique gems and quickly unlearned JC. I know currently I have Alchemy/Enc for raiding. I'm not 100% sure what I plan to do, because I haven't say down and looked over what professions now have unique enchants/gains.

Anybody else been looking over this/have an idea what will be the best to min/max your char?

 

Corronach

Quickly edited above, I had a red in the yellow slot for gems.

Thank you Endoscient and Frmorrison, really quick JC and BS would both benefit more from the int gems right? Just looking quickly at the sockets for the gear I would use, it seems that there are three blue sockets making JC nearly a lock imo.

I've seen no indication that they plan otherwise, but I'm not sure I value it more than 30 second HoJ's and the upcoming 11 point prot talent.

I agree, those three trinkets would give you some flexibility when certain fights called for more mana use Soul of the Dead and Je'Tze's Bell. Some of the other trinkets seem to have very strong PvP implications, especially for human paladins.

 

Fielding

As it stands, for 2v2, my experience is is only 2310ish at max as a pally/warrior, but some of the harder teams for us were dru/lock, mage/rogue(if they have half a brain), and restokin/rogue. Dru/lock I'd probably prefer the HoJ, but I rarely found myself out in the open long enough unless the druid positions poorly and we try and swap+train him down. Even then, he usually dies before another HoJ would be up. Now for rogue/mage and rogue/restokin, it's clear how Divine Purpose would help a ton, and I imagine with mutilate rogues coming back some, it would be even more valuable to mitigate that 10% bonus they get with imp. ks.

Moreover, there is a lot more you gain from 22 in ret that we'd have to weigh against all that you gain from going down in prot. Then apply it to each bracket. Obviously can't just examine each talent and call it a day.

As far as the 11 point prot talent, shit I hope you're right. It would make my week if they actually put in something there. If it is useful then consider the entire month to be a great happy time. Either way, I'm not going to hold my breath.


We'll see what's up when/if they introduce a talent there.

 

Malleus

This is not correct. The +20% is only applied to the target. Cast LoH rank 4 on yourself and you will get two instances of mana return: one of 900, one of 1080.

 

Corronach

Fielding, you bring up a good point with the parts lower in the tree, I think right now it's a bit too soon to tell with JoTP perhaps increasing dmg, imp. judgment might be solid. My experience was only around 2200 with pally/war, as the warrior though, but the teams we struggled against were hunter disc priest, or hunter resto druid. 40 yard JoJ will be nice against druids, and I think the poison change/holy shock will help against rogues.

 

Endoscient

Okay, I added a Trade Skills sections. I think I covered everything, but let me know if I missed anything.

Also, lets try to leave the PvP discussion to the PvP forum. Its okay to talk about it some here, especially how PvE stuff might work for PvP and vice versa. But posts that are solely about PvP don't really belong in here.

 

Fielding

Looks nice.

Does anybody have anymore info on the cloak spellthread? Or if there is/isn't a cloak enchant for enchanters(somebody mentioned that). I'm assuming it was the spellthread they were thinking of.

Might have to drop something in favor of Blacksmith. As long as they keep the alchemist reusable potion usable in arenas I doubt it will be Alchemy. It is currently right?

Just from glancing over the list it seems smithing and tailoring might actually give the highest increase in stat points, of course that is ignoring any extra perks of each tradeskill.

 

Harrygoz

Thread is looking pretty good

Just a minor addition to the acronyms
HPM = heals per mana, a measure of the efficiency of heals, often contrasts with HPS

Also a question regarding talents, either during the beta reviews or GC's upcoming 'healing review':

Was there anything about reworking Spiritual Focus to be more in-line compared to other healers similar talents (ie 2-3 points vs 5), Seems inconsistent. But what additional tier 1 talent could be put in its place?

I would think a 3 point version of spiritual focus and a 2 pt version of Aura mastery would be fine in tier 1, then perhaps the devs could design a new Holy 11pt when coming up with prots 11 pt

 

• frmorrison

Here a few notes I missed when I made my post earlier.

Engineering glove enchant doesn't stack with normal glove enchant of 28 SP and it equals 22.67 passive Haste.
Tailoring gives the perk of very cheap Leg enchants.

I support this, it allows PvE Ret to make sure Ret Aura's bonus gets to everyone (with 2 point Aura talent), however make the aura to be talented to 45 yards (to equal DK).

 

SiliconX

Nope, when cast on yourself, even as of tonight (3.0.3), Minor Glyph of Lay on Hands returns +40% (with Rank 4, it's 1080+1080). If it was a bug, I would assume they would've changed it by now. Screenshot of it here:

 

Endoscient

Added a section for consumables and addons, let me know if there is anything missing.

Silicon, it was definitely bugged in 3.0.2 that if you had both Glyphs it would only give the 20% to the initial target. Its great to see that you get double benefit with Divinity if you cast it on yourself, I'll mention that in the main post. Can you test to see if they fixed the 20% increase to Divinity if you cast LoH on someone besides yourself?

 

Zarty

Can anyone confirm what I see on wowhead: Armor Tokens - Items - World of Warcraft

If that is to be believed, it appears that we'll be sharing tokens with the same classes as in T6 for T7. Ugh!

 

SiliconX

That's weird, because it seemed to be applying +20% to both targets for me in 3.0.2, and in beta. At least in the combat log. I did verify tonight also, that the actual +40% is being applied to the Paladin when cast on his/herself. Used on myself at approx 2000 mana while in combat and after the cast, I had approximately 4300 mana. Minor Glyph of Lay on Hands is definitely being applied afterwards as the combat log shows the mana being returned from it (X mana returned from Glyph of Lay on Hands), as opposed to Glyph of Divinity, which is the actual glyph that is returning the mana to the Paladin.

This is Major Glyph of Divinity and Minor Glyph of Lay on Hands cast on another player who was at approximately 70% mana:



That's a huge bang for the buck for a Minor Glyph.

 

Zarty

I started putting together as much information as I could get on Paladin Wrath loot. Currently I have a simple Open Office spreadsheet that (mostly) just has the gear with spell power, but no hit rating or spirit. After reviewing the mail gear, I should probably update it to include that as well, since shaman gear seems to spend itemization points in largely the same way.

This is very much still in early work phases. Please PM me with corrections, missed items, sources for the drops, etc., and I'll continue to update it. Also, feel free to reuse this information in actual theorycraft spreadsheets; I'm just compiling it as a data source.

Updated to link to a webpage instead so you can easily find updates: WoTLK Paladin Information

Current version: v2, 2008/11/11

 

Blutelf

As for Flasks, please add the Flask of Distilled Wisdom to the list of consumables, which should be a sensible and cheaper alternative to the spellpower flask.

 

Andrast

Generally movement fights will not favor paladins anyway and also will generally require less healing throughput. For all the time you spend standing still you are gaining exactly zero benefit from those 2 points. Remember this isn't a choice between run speed enchant on boots or vitality. This is a choice between Improved Blessing of Wisdom on the entire raid vs a single player running faster. You have approximately 15 mana users in your raid and having Improved Blessing of Wisdom on them equates 270mp5. Surely this is worth 2 points in any serious raiding spec?

Can you please include ZOMGBuffs as an alternative. I do believe it is worthy.

 

Applejuiced

at least we didn't have DKs slapped onto our token as well :p

 

raremage

I'm trying to understand the logic in this, and think it's overkill.

The major problem with Ret that has been pointed to again and again was attacking under bubble. Adding AW exacerbated this issue.

Wouldn't simply reducing damage output to 50% while under bubble address this issue? Leave AW at full power, on its own timer. This would (a) reduce damage output for Ret while bubbled to 50% (b) reduce damage output for Ret while bubbled under AW to 60% (I'm assuming damage *1.2 *0.5) and (c) Allow Holy to heal effectively and use AW while under bubble to increase healing if wanted, which (to my knowledge) has never been identified as an issue.

This isn't a huge nerf to Holy, but it is a small one, and I'm not at all sure it makes sense.

 

Endoscient

Except that I included a spec with both PoJ and Imp BoW or you could already have another Holy Pally with Imp BoW. Sure PoJ isn't useful all the time, but the time it saves you because you ran out of the AoE just fast enough or you got to the tank just fast enough is when the two points earn their worth.

raremage, they said they are going to do something like that. Since, the attack speed penalty isn't much of a penalty anymore.