Hulabaloon

Yes, here is the quote:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to.

 

raremage

That's the quote I was referring to, actually. What I'm suggesting is that, if they are changing the mechanic to dilute the damage instead of attack speed, why bother making the two mutually exclusive? It seems like there's no need for the exclusivity if the mechanic changes to reduce the damage output. The number crunching that has been plastered all over the place shows that Bubble + AW on offense = OverPowered, not Bubble+ AW on Healing = OP.

This being a healing thread, my thought there was: As a holy pally, we could then benefit from shielding and AW healing, without penalty - and still allowing for the correction in damage output of a bubbled Retadin. Making them mutually exclusive isn't really necessary.

Just a thought, though.

 

Endoscient

While it would be nice and not overpowered to be able to AW+Bubble for healing, I am fine with a 30 sec exclusivity. It isn't long enough really that it will prevent you from using AW regularly. While it makes you think more about using AW instead of just using it close to on CD. Like for Brutallus it would be prudent to use AW right after a Burn goes out, so it decreases the chance you won't have Bubble up when you need it.

 

Malleus

Presumably it's to prevent any possible abuse of Divine Guardian. Honestly, though, I can't think of any situation where I'd need both bubble and AW. It would have to be a scenario where there was massive spike damage on both the tank and myself. Generally speaking, if I can't cope with a spike without AW, I can't cope with it full stop.

 

Saladin

What about from an arena/PVP perspective though? I know that's not the focus of these forums, but most non-priest comps tend to jump on the pally to make them bubble as early as possibly, then train to his partners, and go back to the pally when it's down. In that moment of assist-train burst-damage load blowing, it would seem that holy paladins have a legitimate need for both the protective component of DS and the healing component of AW at the same time.

Not to mention AW's infamous purgeability. Many paladins since 3.0 started preferring to use the bubble as a self-defense mechanism for wings to keep them from getting dispelled.

This is all wild conjecture of course, because I've never played holy in arenas (not past 1500 anyway, because I was terribad). But unless I'm severely mistaken, Holy Paladins aren't sitting too pretty in PVP already, and this just sort of adds insult to injury.

EDIT: Spelling and grammar. My second post on EJ forums and I'm already making a fool of myself. >.<

 

Arthaal

On bubble + AW: with AW granting 20% more healing there is no way it won't be immediately targeted for dispelling by any team capable of dispelling. Any team without that ability will focus the paladin to CC him, knowing he locked himself out of his one CC break (apart from trinket) for 30s. Letting a full duration AW go would be terrible play. Is it off the GCD by the way? I can't verify this myself, but as a reactive healing ability that is likely to not last the full duration, it would be nice to activate it during the cast rather than 1.5s before it.

At this point in the PvP paladin game it's a little ridiculous to say, but our animations are one of the things really hurting us. Every single dispellable buff we have comes with such a light show it's hard to miss it even in the midst of an arena match.

Single biggest problem I see with the new mechanics though: seals being so expensive and dispellable. Now that 15% haste hinges on us landing Judgements, a large portion of WOTLK upgrades depend on having seals up to judge. The glyphs of SoW and SoL are also nothing to sneeze at. I suspect holy paladins in arena might spend an inordinate amount of mana and GCDs trying to simply maintain more than untalented healing going.

They should seriously look into making paladin seals physical. While they are at it, some other paladin self buffs probably deserve the same treatment: Righteous Fury in particular should be a physical aura type buff with no duration in my opinion. At least they had the decency to make the 15% haste buff physical... that would truly have been a nightmare to keep up otherwise.

Percent modifiers R'US

 

Saladin

That's exactly my point. Currently (I guess now it's previously) our bubble is the ONLY way to ensure 100% duration of our "power" button. If they're going to make DS penalize damage, then it should be allowable to Bubble and AW. Otherwise AW will never see the light of day in an arena match.

And no, it is not off the mother-farting GCD. No matter how much we ask, they refuse to do it because "everyone wants everything off the GCD."

As far as animation's contribution to our failures, I have to agree. But that's also something I'm really, really hesitant to give up, because it's fun to see glowy things happen when you press a button in a raid. I literally have 1/8th of an orgasm every time I hit Moonfire on my druid for that very reason.

I don't think the solution is to dull down our spell effects. I think we need more vigorous, more accessible dispell protection. Because honestly, at 2000+, they're going to know when you pop your wings even if they removed the animation completely.

 

Endoscient

Yea, Holy Paladins overall are very vulnerable to dispells and very little way to counter them. Blizzard stated the offensive dispell system is something they don't like how it is. For Arenas with AW, I will probably only be use it once Bubble is already on cooldown.

AW is on a 1sec GCD, which make no sense compared to all other abilities like it.

Also I added more spells to the Abilities section, Judgements and Hands.

 

Aerynlore

Building on this, look at all of the Holy Paladin utilities that are dispellable, and their cooldown / manacost to reapply:
Divine Plea - 1min Cooldown (there goes our regen)
Divine Illumination - 3min Cooldown (there goes our cheap spells)
Divine Favor - 2min Cooldown (there goes the crit - though, admittedly, unlikely to actually be dispelled)
Beacon of Light - 35% Base Mana (there goes our "AE" healing)
Sacred Shield - 12% Base Mana (there goes our "HoT")
HoSac (2min CD), HoProt (5min CD) - 6% Base Mana (there goes that utility - though with a 30% dispel resistance, talented)
SoW, SoL - 14% Base Mana (there goes judging and, with glyphs, cheaper or stronger, respectively, heals)

That's a whole lot of our utility that is dispellable. Am I the only one concerned about this?

 

Endoscient

Yes, almost all of our spells are very susceptible to dispels, and it could be a problem in Arena for 80. Lets leave it at that for now, and if it is a problem at 80 then talk about it in the Paladin PvP Thread. This thread isn't really the place to talk about potential PvP problems at 80. For all we know shamans and priests will not be common in comps that give our comps trouble, so it might not even be an issue.

 

Soralin

I didn't think to take screenshots, but I noticed last night that Glyph of Holy Light is no longer applying to the intial target. However, the "splash" effect is no longer effective heal - it takes into account the entire heal, even if it is 100% overheal. A nice change!

 

Endoscient

Can anyone confirm this? I would but I am Ret with Ret glyphs currently, in preparation for leveling.

An interesting change, I am not surprised they took away healing the initial target again. Since it can no longer effect the initial target, the small radius of the glyph concerns me slightly. The value of glyph can greatly vary with how big the boss model is. Since most of the time you are using Holy Light it is on a tank, and if the boss' model is large enough that melee aren't within 5yds of the tank it will almost never splash to anyone. Either way there is no 4th Glyph that will surpass it, so I'll still be using it.

 

Corronach

It is working like Soralin described atm.

 

Soralin

I had hoped that when they changed the tooltip to "100yds" it was a typo and they actually meant "10yds". 10 would be enough to reach melee standing behind the boss that the tank was tanking. Given that its only 10% of a HL (which is a maximum of about 1000 in Sunwell Gear), personally I wouldn't see that 100yds would be that big a problem - given that it is limited to 5 people.

I would like to see it increased to at least 10, so that healing tanks can splash to Melee as well - and I don't really see a reason why it can't have a larger radius than that given the relatively small heal that it provides. It's not as if spamming Holy Light is viable for any length of time, so it wouldn't be a sustainable "AOE Heal" anyway.

While we're discussing the glyph, is it intelligent like CoH or Chain Heal? What I mean is - if 40 people at varying levels of HP are standing within 5yds, how does the Glyph pick which targets to heal? Is it closest, or random? Or does it heal the people with the lowest HP?

 

Zarty

I have a question about the "Stats" section in the opening posts. In some cases you talk about "100 points" in a stat, and in others you talk about "100 item points." (see 100 int vs 100 item points of mp5 for 40 mp5.) It seems a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Could this be standardized in some way, or am I just confused? Including a comparison of X int vs X mp5 would seem to make more sense, and then provide the actual predicated item point cost of 1 int vs 1 mp5 for comparison sake.

 

Syn

I noticed that the glyph of Holy Light doesn't heal myself anymore, even if I stand in front of my target.

 

Roywyn

I like it that way really. Comparing 10 haste to 3 crit or 12 int or 9 mp5 isn't really useful to me.

The post shows me what I can get for "5 epic gems of Int" compared to "5 epic gems of MP5" or "5 epic gems of Spell Power".

[Edit]: Also, Letherworking offers +37 spell power (+67 lining compared to +30 enchant).

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Endoscient

For most stats 1 item points = 1 point in the stat. The exceptions are Spell Power (1 item point = 1.166 sp), Mp5 (1 item point = 0.4mp5) and Stamina (1 item point = 1.5 stamina).

Thanks Roywyn, fixed the error with LWing.

 

Zarty

Ah thanks, it's been a long time since I saw itemization stats, I didn't remember it was as simple as that. It might be nice to preface it with that.

 

fox

It also appears to crit independent of the original heal.

Here's a screenshot confirming that it heals on overheal and that it crits independently.

 

Noules

Pretty much the only possible advantage the FoL glyph would have over the standard FoL is the fact that you can potentially get some healing during a period you cannot cast. The best case scenario with the FoL glyph only increases your throughput by 20% (consider the maximum healing per cast glyphed and non-glyphed) and that's only if you have enough targets to put the FoL HoT on. With haste, you need more targets for it to be effective. If you have to cut just one tick from the HoT you are basically healing for the base amount, except over a longer period of time. There's no reason to consider the FoL glyph at all as it is right now.

 

Zarty

I played with the changes to the holy light glyph tonight in BT and I like the change. However, it doesn't seem to be working as described in this thread so far. Based on a quick glance through part of my combat log tonight, it looks like it might work more like this:

- If the spell lands for >50% or so overheal, copy 10% of the total heal value of the spell.
- Otherwise, copy 10% of the effective healing only.

10% copied despite 100% overheal, as described earlier in the thread:
10% effective healing only copied when the overheal ~40%
10% effective healing only copied when the overheal was ~50%
But, 10% total healing was copied here with ~57% overheal
That's just a cursory glance at the log file, I need to go to bed so I don't know if that's actually the pattern or if it's just random and it only appears consistent in the page or so of logs I read. The full combat log for my holy light casts tonight is here if someone wants to pick through it.

Wow Web Stats

If that's intentional and the cutoff really is ~50%, it's a really weird mechanic. I'll take the bonus healing on overheal, since it's better than what I had before, but it feels weird that 57% overheal (43% + 10% x 5 = 93% of base holy light) has the potential to heal for more total than 45% overheal (55% + 5.5% x 5 = 82.5% of base holy light) and like it might just be a band-aid for the massive overheal numbers we tend to get stuck with whenever we need to swap out to holy light ever since the loss of downranking.

One nice part, though, is that it makes glyph of holy light scale even better with crit. Say a 6k heal would have landed for 38% overheal, but you critted for 9k, which pushed it to 57% overheal. Instead of getting glyph of holy lights for 372, you'll get them for 900 and those can crit again for up to 1350.

 

Aerynlore

Quick question on the direction of this thread.
Are we going to be just talking about Holy Paladin raid-healing? Or will this also help us with soloing/grinding/dailies tips?
The title is a little ambiguous about this, and I think a quick clarification for the intended scope of this thread (especially early in the original post) will help to keep the conversation on track. It was already stated earlier in this thread that we are not discussing PvP tactics here, leaving that to the generic Paladin PvP discussion.

 

Pyre

I'd guess anything having to do with holy paladins in a PVE context would be on topic. For example,:

This may be too late to help me with leveling, but might make dailies less painful.

 

Endoscient

It is going to be focused on healing in a PvE environment. Mainly raids, but I am sure there will be some discussion about 5mans/Heroics when we all first get to 80. I think the first post, the nature of topics in this forum and the fact that Holy is pretty much just for healing covers that pretty well.

I really don't think there is anything particularly worthwhile to talk about for soloing. Go Ret for leveling (you can heal leveling 5mans fine as ret), and for doing dailies spam your highest dps attacks while keeping up SoW for mana.

Also, anyone experience the same behavior Zarty is? It seems very peculiar if it worked liked that. Do you have an actual combat log file? It might be WWS doing something weird.