I use this card, mainly because of the 90 int being so amazing, but also because when you are able to time the proc with DP, you gain that much more mana. Previous posts/arguments have shown that you overall gain less mana back from DP when u ONLY use DP on a Greatness Proc (that should be obvious) so the only real advantage here is using DP on the first proc of Greatness, and then later you can sometimes catch 1-2 ticks of DP while Greatness is procd (due to the 45 sec ICD and the 33% chance to proc.

While trash mobs arent generally our concern here, Id also like to mention it makes a great trinket for trash mana regen between pulls, since Greatness procs as soon as you pull, and just like that you're back up (to full for me, most of the time).

The problem with the Int Greatness Card is that the proc doesn't give you 300 Int worth of mana. It just gives you an increased mana pool.

It's obviously improving your Crit and and Spellpower during the time it's up, but not as well as other trinkets that do the same thing. You could attempt to sync it up with Divine Pleas for increased mana regen, but that was proven (a few pages back in this thread) to generally be an overall decrease in mana regeneration as opposed to just popping Plea every time it was up. You're losing regen for every second you could have Plea'ed but are waiting around for a proc. Not to mention the hassle of monitoring and timing the syncing of the two.

The 90 Int is very very nice, but the proc seems less than ideal. Especially in regards to the cost of obtaining the trinket (20,000g+ on my server). Other trinket drops are just as good if not better while being much easier to obtain.

Further (and this is personal preference time), I've stopped stacking Int. I myself and my guild have become geared enough and good enough at the fights that the 20k mana pool provided by my gear alone is more than enough for any fight in the game. The value of this trinket as a mana regeneration tool falls significantly when you realize you don't need mana regeneration. And the Spellpower and Crit buffing provided can be better performed by other trinkets.

You don't need mana regen for trivial/farm content since you can heal most of it with Flash of Light.

But if Blizzard decides to make Ulduar fights both hard and last more than 4-5 minutes, then you'll want every bit of regen you can get your hands on.


And in regards to the Greatness card; right now Paladins can choose between the two absolutes - HPS through SP/Haste/Crit or HPS through trying for infinite Holy Light spam. I personally prefer healing through "infinite" Holy Light spam so for me it's all about stacking Int, thus picking Greatness instead of Forethought or whatever else you'd want to pick up.

Sorry I didn't fully read this line before, but the first post says you need that much haste for 1 sec GCDs. You would need around 60% haste from gear to get 1 sec Holy Lights.

1.5 is the coefficient you want to divide your spell cast time to (it will made 1sec GCD from 1.5 sec), it is 50% haste. Sanc ret gives 3% haste, totem gives 5% and JotP gives 15% haste. Those stack multiplicatively and together they reduce your cast time by 1.03*1.05*1.15 = 1.244. You will need 20.6% more haste (1.5/1.244=1.206) to get the desired coefficient. It is the multiplicative nature of the haste buffs that gives this number. If they would simply add then to reach 50% haste you would want extra 50-3-5-15 = 27% haste.

I do more or less the same way.
Healbot keeps good track of SS and BoL as well as a great threat monitoring tool for preemptive heals. I also use it in place of decursive with sound and coloring warnings.

Since i'm so used to clicking on everything to heal them, I have clique setup exactly as healbot, so I can use same clicks on my pitbull frame (pitbull raid frames disabled, only pitbull raid pets enabled for malygos fight)

How I do preemptive healing is as follows:
I target the boss, so I know what it's casting, what it's doing, and this saves me the trouble of targeting things when I want to use judgement, Hammer of Wrath, etc... Syncing Boss's spike damage is simply by targeting the Boss and healing with healbot. Though, it's for me, nearly impossible to time against the swings, since u'll be desynced when u crit, with GCD from judging and so on. Best approach imo is to desync with another holy paladin in raid, so it helps with overhealing and tank survivability. Win for everyone. I do this by simply focusing that other holy paladin, and Quartz lets me see what my focus target is casting. Desyncing with another paladin is also not so easy for the same reason of getting faster casts on crit heals and we do crit lots in raids.

Since the current content is not so challenging as, say, Brutallus in Sunwell once was, just spam HL during steady Boss damage phases, and work your faster clicks on the spike damage phases, and it should be ok in my humble opinion.

It was answered a little whiles back - while there is some debate still, the general consensus seems to be the 5% less mana cost using SoW. The 5% saved mana can be utilized far more effectively than 5% more healing on a spell that, in most cases, will be overhealing anyway. In addition, getting the mana cost of HL down is priority when starting off in order to get to the "infinite" HL casting stats, with the 60% return on base mana cost.

It is also the same reason why you wouldn't want [Libram of Tolerance] but [Libram of Renewal].
The overall efficiency you can squeeze with the extra mana is better in comparison. And together with the minor glyph [Glyph of the Wise] there's even an extra you can get using SoW. Not to mention the rare occasion where you can get one or two autoattacks on the boss/enemy with your SoW up to gain a very good return for a crappy auto swing

To be fair, I think that Seal of Wisdom auto attacking is borderline overpowered. With a fast weapon it doesn't take much to get an auto attack off in any slight healing break and with an Int-stacked Paladin (i am at 26k mana raid buffed) it's a solid 1040 per proc. On 3 drake last night I just started autoing on Vesperon when I hit ~30% mana bombing HLs on the drake tanks. I couldn't believe how quickly I shot back up to 80%+ just using Holy Shock and IoL procs to cover the sparser tank damage at that point.

The other day I also healed a scrubby alt Naxx10 on Sapphiron for about 2 million. My mana returned break down was as follows -
25% Illumination
21% Seal of Wisdom
20% Divine Plea
12% Replenishment
+ trinket/helm proc

for a total of 127k mana returned. Don't doubt the Seal of Wisdom auto attack - it can be a massive source of mana regen.

Fortunately, SoW isn't getting changed to % base (as opposed to judgement). Definitely a viable regen means (not to mention you still get procs off a ret-judged wis...not amazing after the change, but still something)

The problem with seal of wisdom, of course, is that it entails not healing. I suppose if you're in an emergency situation when you're OOM and the tank is not in danger of dying (although typically the only possible way I could be OOM is if the tank is constantly in danger of dying), it is great mana regen.

But I just dont see that being a realistic scenario very much. I'd only do this if I had absolutely no other option. This is, of course, assuming that the tank living is dependant on the holy paladin healing him. If that's not the case, then why bring a holy paladin at all?

Just because on current really easy/short fights you don't go OOM, it doesn't mean you should drop all your regen. When difficult content comes out with 3.1 you are going to want all the mana again. You are trading a huge amount of regen for a relatively smaller increase to HL.

Also remember that Glyph of Holy Light doesn't smart heal, so CoH/WG is still much better then it.

Yeah the splash effect from Holy Light doesnt get that much of a boost from Seal of Light Libram over using the SoW Libram. If you do want to regem from Int i would almost suggest Spell/crit gems or even the SP/Haste Gems. I dont know why but im addicted to haste and feel like I need more

*I also wish they put an Int/Haste Gem in the game that would be a sweet gem to have*

Has anyone noticed that Glyph of Holy Light seems to only target people who are missing health? I haven't done serious testing on it, but I've noticed that sometimes I only get a couple of procs despite there being a huge cluster of people if majority of the people are already topped off.

Also, I'm not sure that the fact Glyph of Holy Light doesn't smart heal is a big downside precisely because CoH/WG -does- smart heal. When you consider a combination of GoHL/CoH/WG, the smart heals compensate for the changes in health totals caused by GoHL, effectively giving you something close to everyone having a smart heal. Just GoHL is probably inferior to CoH/WG, but they have great synergy together since GoHL can provide a lot of the healing while CoH/WG fills in the RNG 'misses' (this is assuming raid damage to start with is relatively evenly distributed, however - which usually seems likea valid assumption).

GHL does proc on people who are full on health, so I who you cast on was probably just further away from the group then you thought.

Raid damage is not uniformly distributed in most fights. In a fight like Saphirron where it is, then random healing isn't as big of a deal.

Within the past couple weeks, I've dropped my focus on regen. Ending most fights with 50-75% mana was just a waste. The above quoted and Zaroua's reply a few higher are common responses I get when I tell people I stack no more Int than what comes on my gear.

The thing is that I'm not playing in a theoretical Uldar yet. I'm fighting Naxx and Sarth+3 and Malygos. Later on, if I need more regen, I'll resocket or throw back on the mp5 gear that I traded for haste or crit. But right now, ending fights with three fourths of my mana pool untouched is just wasted stats. And if I put those points into swifter or stronger heals - then maybe we can 3 Heal Naxx or get the 5 Minute Malygos.

Bottom line for me is that I'm playing the game as it is now. Stacking Int into a 25k+ mana pool because maybe I'll need it when the next patch comes out is playing a game that doesn't exist.

One thing that I am particularly interested in is where to go once you feel you have enough Int. I know there are people who will advocate stacking Int forever, but for others who feel they have enough and have moved on to other stats - which did you chose? Spellpower, haste or crit? Or some mix of two or more of them? I chose crit because it gave me increased healing while still also giving me some of that mana regen I sacrificed when I gave up my Int. However, lately I've wondered if I even needed to keep that crit gained regen and might be better stacking spellpower or haste.

The reason you don't make that swap is that you're trading ~12% efficiency (assuming ~35% holy light crit) for ~2.5% efficiency+burst. Not worth it on the grand majority of fights. Probably not worth it on any fight, really. SoW and SoL are much closer calls and will probably never be fully agreed on. I'm not even sure what's best for me. SoL is 5% more burst and 5% more efficiency, while SoW is about 7-7.5% more efficiency but no more burst. If you want to do *anything* to increase your HPS because you think you have too much mana, swapping seals should be the first step.

If you think it's dumb to finish the fight with so much mana, don't you also think it's dumb to have a really fast cast when in fact you're just sitting there 1/2 the time not having anyone to cast a heal at? Really, you cannot gear around easy fights, because on easy fights everything work. And the best thing is, that what works on hard fights definitely works on easy fights too.

On a side note, when I want to be safe on patchwerk, or have the priests mess up their shield wall rotation on instructor (which happens every time for us), or when 1/2 the raid dies and we end up healing it with just me and a CoH priest - in those situations I seriously need all the mana I can get (I'll try post a WWS when I get the chance, although I have to say there are still a few things I could've done better on pretty much all fights i've done. Ignore easy fights as I help DPS on those and only heal when ppl actually take more than 1000 damage...). However I still don't find my burst anywhere near useless, hence why I use SoL ATM (however I'm not even sure it's best like I said above, but it's a rather close call).

I'm really not sold on meleeing the boss just yet. You will have to have about 50:50 melee:HL ratio to beat FOL, considering FOL is possible to cast infinitely (heck I think I can cast it infinitely without raid buffs just with DP), and HL has ~2.1X the HPS of FoL. Therefore if you melee about 1/2 the time to keep the mana for HL up, you're better off just casting FoL, you will even gain mana in the process allowing you to keep using a HL here and there (in reality I can keep a non-neglicible HL:FoL ratio even after I'm oom with raid buffs and DP, without stopping casting). On top of everything, being in melee range is not a very good idea on some fights, specifically those that require specific positioning for melee like sapphiron and sartharion (avoid cleave and tail whip). The extra movement time on positioning that melee have to pay also reduces your activity time, on top of the time you actually melee.

Just wondering has anyone played around with Holy Light/Holy Shock spell rotation in which you tried to holy shock every cooldown to proc infusion of light? Dont think its very practical but I could see it possibly working and producing mad HPS consdier with 2pct7 we should be in the neighborhood of 50-60% HS crit.

With my stats on rawr the HPS increase from FOL+HL with 50:50 chance of 1s:2s cast compared to just HL is quite tiny, however your HPS will be a lot more spiky and quite less mana efficiency. Consider this needs 40% holy crit which is quite high too if you're gearing yourself properly, so in reality it'll be even worse. Conclusion: Only use holy shock when you're unable to cast a "real" heal (either because target will die b4 the heal lands or because you really have to move right now). In normal situations just spam HL/FoL based on your mana pool, the incoming damage (as well as how long you expect the fight/your mana to last and how much damage you expect to happen on the other phases).

Rawr doesn't model IoL currently at all, I should have it modeled by next release.

Meleeing the boss is not actually done for the purpose of meleeing the boss. This is why it's called on autoattack. What I mean is, you squeeze in melee hits even without you knowing it. Mostly happens when you're on the move. For example, I MT heal on sartharion and when a fire wall spawns, I run with the Tank not to lose range. I run under the boss, safe from tail whip and fire breath. When i'm doing this move, since i have the boss targeted, I do a few hits with my fast weapon until i stop and continue healing. Same can happen at Thaddius (did i type the name correctly?) when you're running for a phase shift and relocating. So, at least, what I meant by squeezing melee hits is this one. You surely don't stop, run in melee range and get back healing.

I just try to use HS on spike damage on DPS, or on such moments where you have some damage while running, or in Malygos Vortexes, I try to make use of HS, and an instant FoL afterwards. But using HS to overheal, and actually have it on CD when you could need it desperately might, imho, not work out too well. But that's just blind comment, I'd surely like to see some numbers, stats how this affects the output.

I've been looking over some healing numbers, for a raid I did tonight. I'm noticing a big trend when it comes to numbers and for me it creating somewhat of problem. Was beat by a resto druid tonight in healing the druid wasn't as geared as I was. Now that in and of itself doesn't bother me. It's this trend with Wolk raids I've noticed as I've studied the healing numbers. For one I'm curious as to where the average pally is on the healing meters in 10 and 25 mans. Now I will be the first to say healing meters mean nothing. But I'm curious if this trend is across the board with all Holy Pallies.

Here is the trend. Most if not all the raid content encounter there is not much spike damage. A well geared tank in 10 and 25 mans will not be getting hit for much. Which means smaller reactive hots win the day on those types of fights while we get stupid amounts of OH. So far I've noticed Paladins excel at fights that require high amounts of HPS even then I notice a lot of OH on those fights. The point is that there is not many fights atm that require huge amounts of HPS Patchwerk being one of the few.

While I think Paladins are sitting pretty good atm, the lack of damage in the majority of encounters, does not help us out. I don't know what Uldar will be like I hope it will give us a chance go into overdrive like Patchwerk does. I'm curious to know what other paladins are doing when it comes to healing and being more effective at it given the lack of damage in most raid encounters these days.

Also curious to know do most of your raid leaders assign healing? Right now the guild I'm in doesn't assign heals they expect you to heal. Which means are any given time alot of people could be healing the MT again more OH for the Pallies. While I don't agree with not assigning heals? I'm curious what other paladins think about this and if this kind of raid healing is effective. I mean bosses die and in the end that is all that matters.