Rawr supports only a few trinket procs currently, I am going to try to support more for the next version.

My problem with that trinket is that it is totally luck based if the proc will do any effective healing, it has a 45sec ICD and 20% proc rate so it has a very low uptime.

Isn't rawr concentrating on total healing done anyway? You could simply add 'HPS' as Appolion wrote. After all, items are ranked by some sort of HPS score, right? Just incorporate the value of a HoT into the item directly somehow, without assigning a 'fake' equivalent stat. Not quite sure if it's easy to do though.

That is the way that I am going to implement that trinket and similar ones, like Malygos-25. It isn't totally accurate because it assumes it has a similar overheal to other spells.

That is the main shortfall with the Rawr module currently, its lack of overhealing estimations. I am trying to think of a way to accurately model it. The best I can think of is a health deficit probability function per heal, the chance that the target is at certain health deficits. The problem with this is that it is difficult to maintain (would need one function essentially for each fight/raid comp), so it might not be feasible to make it give useful and accurate results.

Trinkets are tough to choose. I was enamored with [Forethought Talisman] but I have [Soul of the Dead] and I think the next one I want is [Illustration of the Dragon Soul] 200 spellpower, as long as you cast one every 10 seconds, is awesome! My other current trinkets are [Mercurial Alchemist Stone] or [Darkmoon Card: Illusion] and I have been using [Mercurial Alchemist Stone]. Is 50 haste better than an extra 41 SP...hard to say. I have only used 3 mana potions in the last few weeks of raiding so the 40% boost from pots is of very little value.

This is not accurate. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, on page 18. 12/12/08, 5:32 AM.
I thought I saw further discussion about this issue at the time, but I cannot readily find it.

On another issue.

I have been using Rawr for a few weeks to assist with gear choices. Last night I downloaded and installed Pawn. I asked in Guild if anyone knew how I get the weighting figures out of Rawr to put in Pawn. I was informed that some Rawr modules do it but not all.

So other than reverse Engineering the point totals for items in the Holy Paladin Rawr module is there any other way of getting the Rawr weightings?

Lets talk trinkets for a second since my [Badge of the Infiltrator] is being 'adjusted' in the next patch. This character is not a JC or an Alchemist, so those trinkets are out of the picture. Second, we do mostly 10 mans right now, so my options are limited. [Spark of Life] is my second trinket currently.

Since I don't have access to the 'top end' 25 man gear, rawr is showing me that regen is still very powerful, and I tend to agree. When I don't have replenish, I have to manage my mana on certain fights. I wouldn't be adverse to a spellpower trinket or such, but after the mention of Rawr not handling all the trinkets properly, I thought I would get some insights.

Aside from the obvious choices below, what are you guys using for trinkets and why? (hopefully ones available from 10 man content)

[Soul of the Dead]
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] (int version)
[Je'Tze's Bell]

For those curious about the changes to [Badge of the Infiltrator], the PTR shows 46 Int along with 183 spellpower for 20 seconds, 2 minute cooldown. It is still a good trinket according to Rawr and, the avg SP loss is only around 14 sp. I am mainly looking for something better then my Spark.

Read above, the mp5 is not really bad, in fact the tier pieces are pretty much BIS, only thing u can upgrade is shoulders since you get much more efficiency out of malygos' shoulders, at some cost of burst. Of course it's all debateable depending on how you value efficiency VS burst, which could make other items BIS for you. If you value 1% efficiency as good as 1% haste, though, all T7.5 except shoulders are BIS, and even if they weren't, the 4-piece bonus is just too major to pass up. You can check on rawr exactly how much int or sp equivalent that is.

The 4pc bonus is very powerful if you use alot of holy light, which if you follow this thread, you should be

Infact, it is so good, that it makes 4pc T7 (10 man set) better then offset 25 man pieces. The same should apply to the T7.5 set and the off pieces. Rawr should be able to show you the difference, for example my gear (4pc T7, no helm) leads to this: (The first number is preserving the 4pc, the second number is if you get 4pc from other slots)

[Valorous Redemption Tunic] - 1400 - 945
[Heroes' Redemption Tunic] - 1300 - 860
[Chestplate of the Great Aspects] - 800 - 866
[Chivalric Chestguard] - 795 - 872

Hope that made sense. Also as Galzohar said, mp5 is not 'bad', it still has a use.

Hi there!

Well, I just thought I want to add my 2 cent to the discussion here.

I was thinking a lot about the new stats and the way they affect all other stats. And I decided to go along with the "Int is pallys nr. 1 stat" idea.

in facts: I am at about unbuffed 28k mana, raidbuffed I reach about 32k. it is amazing how healing changes with such high stats.
I can flash holy light for about 10 minutes without running oom, at additional 2200 spellpower and 42% crit. (47% holy crit)
I can almost heal a maintank by myself in instances like naxx25 as long as I don't get interupted - so most of the time some hots can be quite helpful

but I can say that the way on going for max int in first row is a very very effective way to push up the status of a paladin main healer.

I don't know how much you communicate with the other rawr writers, but might be able to find out how the resto druids have calculated their HoTs on rawr and use a similar approach with the trinket.

Re: The discussion about 4pt7. I don't think anyone can argue that the bonus is good but I would only find the efficiency valuable if I had mana issues. I will keep the items in my back pocket and use 4pt7 if, in Ulduar, we have longer fights that are more intense. By that time I would guess other gear would start to replace it anyway.

Aye it is, and that's what makes it that powerfull. With libram, glyph of SoW and 4pcT7 crit restores around 75% of actual spell mana cost (crit always restores % of base mana cost).

The four piece bonus is insanely good, and I would be quite hard pressed to give it up. As you can see in Rawr, it is a huge increase in how much overall healing we can do. Remember it doesn't effect how much mana we get from Illumination, so with 50% HL crit it reduces the average cost by 7%. The T7 chest/helm could be itemized better (haste/crit over mp5), but the alternatives are no where near close to being able to make up the amount of mana gained by the set bonus.

For example on Patchwerk this week (WMO), where I casted 101 HLs spamming them during the whole 2.5min fight and was at 1k mana at the end, the set bonus saved me 6435 mana. Here is the math calculating how much Int you would need to equal that set bonus in this fight.

Int * Mana per int * (Starting Mana + 2 Divine Pleas + 2 Arcane Torrent + Replenishment) + Int / Int to crit conversion * Mana saved per crit * HLs cast = Mana saved from T7
Int * 15 * (1 + .5 + .12 + .325) + Int / 16666 * 765 * 101 = 6435
Int * (15 * (1 + .5 + .12 + .325) + 1 / 16666 * 765 * 101) = 6435
Int * (29.175 + 4.636) = 6435
Int = 6435 / 33.81
Int = 190.33

So you would need 150 Intellect (before Kings/Divine Int) to gain as much mana from the set bonus in that fight. I am going to try to run some calculations on the worth of it in different scenarios, and probably going to add this calculation into Rawr so you can see how much Intellect it is worth in the fight you are currently modeling.

To people saying they don't have "mana" issues. Unless you spam Holy Light 100% of the time on all fights, then you could make use out of more mana. Gearing around easy 2-3 minute fights is a horrible idea on its own as well.

Hey Endo, is 51/20/0 your PVP spec? I have been thinking of a similar build (minus UF and PoH) for certain PVE content like Malygos and 3D Sarth. Do you notice the loss of crit and the runspeed much?

Ya, 51/20/0 is my PvP spec. For fights where I would want Divine Guardian over 20pts in Ret I would go a 51/17/3 spec. There is no current content that I spec for DG, since I heal drake/add tank on Sarth+3. But I suspect that there will be a few fights in Ulduar I would want it.

How did you reach these stats? I tried to armory you but it didn't work. I am unaware of gear, BIS or no, that reaches you that high.

I am in a similar situation with you as far as gear available and I plan on picking up [Flow of Knowledge] for 25 Wintergrasp marks when the patch rolls around. Doesn't show in the link, but it also has chance on spellcast for 590 Spellpower for 10 seconds. Overall seems like a very solid trinket considering how easy it is to get.

I thought armory no longer showed raid buffs

It doesn't but its easy to figure out raid buffed stats if you have the base. Also you probably have to be a JC to reach 28k mana unbuffed. A lot of the other stats listed sounded like they were raid buffed, but I'm not the poster of the post so I don't know.

Wasn't [Flow of Knowledge] changed to a 84 resilience trinket? I seem to have read it somewhere. Afaik some pvpers cried because 'there is already one of those trinkets from badges'

Indeed it was changed. However, it still has the proc to gain a lot of spell power on spell cast, so decent for PvP.

Towards the question, the Egg from badges is pretty good, 110ish sp and a useful haste proc.

I'm not too keen on haste procs, they're a bit unreliable to be efficient. Guess I'll have to run HoS a few more times for [Forge Ember]