I'm not too keen on haste procs, they're a bit unreliable to be efficient. Guess I'll have to run HoS a few more times for [Forge Ember]
If you don't like haste procs, spell power procs are pretty much just as unreliable as the haste so you should be going for more regen procs instead of HPS procs if thats your belief. Spark of life drops in HoS as well and in that regard is much better than the forge ember.
If you don't like haste procs, spell power procs are pretty much just as unreliable as the haste so you should be going for more regen procs instead of HPS procs if thats your belief. Spark of life drops in HoS as well and in that regard is much better than the forge ember.
Indeed. Haste procs are just as often a waste as a benefit, and +spell power can just as well mean more overhealing as it can mean more healing.
The only procs I consider good are mana regen procs. The rest I want as 'on use'-abilities so I can control when they activate. Lots of times I rather have something with a 2 minute cooldown and not fully as good effect, that I can decide when it comes, as I have a proc that comes once every minute, since it might just as well be on CD when I need it.
Last edited by Inkompetent : 01/17/09 at 12:54 PM.
Wow, that much of a difference? Just because of 5% cheaper Holy lights?
Btw, is the 5% off of base cost? So it's same discount as having SoW up?
Its 5% off the cost after the libram reduction seems to be a flat 64 mana reduction on 4pc and sow without the libram and 58 with the libram of renweal.
Yeah the way the reductions are calculated is the game will do divine illumination first, then will deduct the libram and then lump the SoW and 4pc bonus together and deduct from the remainder.
The main reason why 5% is that important is because your crit returns stay the same no matter what, so instead of increasing efficiency by 5% it's closer to 6-8% (depending on your crit). So if you drop your 4pc bonus, your upgrade has to be increasing your healing by pretty much the same amount for it to be worth considering.
From patch notes
- Wild Growth now has a 6 second cooldown.
Makes me wonder if glyph of holy light might get another change or will they just wait and see if the lack of a smart heal on the glyph is enough to leave it as it is on PTR. It's looking like paladins are going to be valuable raid healers if they have the gear to sustain holy light spam.
I anticipate mixed reactions from those who feel this might pull us away from the job we do better than any other healer currently, main tank healing.
The GHL will not affect raid healing much really if our assignment is keeping the MT up as there are usually 5 or so melee that get the benefit from it anyways. If we spam HL heal the raid that is when it will be nice or running heroics when there is lots of AoE damage. At first I thought it was a little OP but it will hits only 5 targets. It is a good change not an OP one.
Re: The discussion about 4pt7. I don't think anyone can argue that the bonus is good but I would only find the efficiency valuable if I had mana issues. I will keep the items in my back pocket and use 4pt7 if, in Ulduar, we have longer fights that are more intense. By that time I would guess other gear would start to replace it anyway.
This is a point that needs emphesis, I've saw alot of posts saying how great 4-set of T7 is but ultimately its only good if you are running oom in fights. If you properly itemise your gear, make good use of CDs and use just alittle common sense (hi needless HL-spam) you shouldn't ever be going oom using the offset peices available.
I've cleared every piece of content available and have never "wished" I had the 4pt thats sat in my bag since the start of woltk. I use SoL over SoW on 90% of fights now too. It probably very much depends on play style/content difficulty but... I see paladins just stand there mashing HL over and over and over doing 70% OH on fights and just /facepalm irl.
This is a point that needs emphesis, I've saw alot of posts saying how great 4-set of T7 is but ultimately its only good if you are running oom in fights. If you properly itemise your gear, make good use of CDs and use just alittle common sense (hi needless HL-spam) you shouldn't ever be going oom using the offset peices available.
I've cleared every piece of content available and have never "wished" I had the 4pt thats sat in my bag since the start of woltk. I use SoL over SoW on 90% of fights now too. It probably very much depends on play style/content difficulty but... I see paladins just stand there mashing HL over and over and over doing 70% OH on fights and just /facepalm irl.
You are gemming for Int (at lest partially), and 4pcT7 is worth 150-200 int depending on the fight. For how meager an upgrade in stats the offset pieces are you are using it is no where near worth it.
You can easily do current content geared in many non optimal ways, that doesn't mean that way is the best way. What is wrong with doing 70% overheal if who we are supposed to be healing doesn't die?
Over heal means nothing, this content is so under tuned I am constantly sniping heals from other healers in the raid (speaking of which, anyone know a mod that could possibly tracked sniped heals and the snipers themselves?). When you say you use SoL, I am wondering what you do most of the time? FoL? I frequently over heal by a million points with effective heals %'ged of that. Its difficult not to over heal when you stack haste (approaching the 1sec HL mark with around 650 haste buffed) and have the capability of sustaining those casts.
I'd rather be casting a heal and acting proactively then not. Attempting to react to bad situations just seems silly considering how over geared we are.
If you think the next content patch will change paladins leading in over heals, your probably going to be disappointed. With HL Glyph changes I intend to be spamming holy light more and more. Paladins have the highest throughput in the game right now spamming holy light in boss encounters. Take a look at some WWS of 25mans from any of the big guilds. The only reason we don't lead meters is none of our heals are "smart heals", and few of the encounters (patchwerk perhaps being the exception) are specifically tuned for paladins to do well in.
You can easily do current content geared in many non optimal ways, that doesn't mean that way is the best way. What is wrong with doing 70% overheal if who we are supposed to be healing doesn't die?
You can apply the same logic that if you can heal in a different way to achieve the same outcome then theres nothing wrong with that either? You can't say 1 way is more optimal than another if both have the same result, then it just becomes a matter of preference. Some people enjoy spamming to boost healing meters, doesn't make them any better imo.
Except for the fact that they dont same result, they do on easy content like naxx but you can go into naxx with blues and greens and still finish it. Once you start taking away healer slots that's when you determine which method is the most effective. If I had a raid with 8 healers, I could easily simply sacred shield, beacon and FoL spam the entire time on patchwerk. Does that mean it's the best way for me to heal? Definetly not. The reason we keep on saying that gearing and aiming for HL spam is better than anything else is because with constant HL spam you can eliminate the need for other healers, allowing more DPS to get into the fight and THAT is a noticable difference in outcome of any fight. Unless you can show how FoL spam can sustain the same HPS that HL does during an average length fight, you really can't claim that they both are different means to the same end
This is a point that needs emphesis, I've saw alot of posts saying how great 4-set of T7 is but ultimately its only good if you are running oom in fights. If you properly itemise your gear, make good use of CDs and use just alittle common sense (hi needless HL-spam) you shouldn't ever be going oom using the offset peices available.
I've cleared every piece of content available and have never "wished" I had the 4pt thats sat in my bag since the start of woltk. I use SoL over SoW on 90% of fights now too. It probably very much depends on play style/content difficulty but... I see paladins just stand there mashing HL over and over and over doing 70% OH on fights and just /facepalm irl.
For the most part if you use Holy Light at all the 4pc is going to be somekind of upgrade over not having it via the logic that you can gear yourself for more output easier. But for the most part the difference between going for max output gear and having 4pc is swapping out a chest thats pretty comprable to the alternatives out there.
I think currently with the state of healing right now with smart instant cast heals, and paladins having huge crits and crit rates its kind of hard not to have huge overheal, heck I'm pretty sure outside of patchwerk Beacon of light is probabaly going to be 50%-60% overheal just because of the situational nature of it. Does that mean I shouldnt use it? The only way I can see not having huge over heals as a paladin these days is to either run with minimal healers or a FoL healing style in which you assume your going to crit a majority of the time (which due to the rng nature of crits I wouldnt think would be a good habit to develop)
I don't see why there isn't room for some sort of middle ground. I find HL spam to be ineffective because my reaction time is reduced (less time for HS due to longer cast times) if someone takes unexpected damage. FoL spam is also ineffective because you simply cannot put out high enough HPS for most encounters.
IMO if you are advocating spamming HL or FoL you're just being lazy. Except on fights like Patchwork you should not see 90% of your healing coming from one spell.
I agree that FoL still should be used simply because despite our regen and whatnot, we still will find ourselves oom if the fight goes on too long and we're only spamming HL. If we keep getting more and more haste on our gear regardless of how much regen we have we're going to still need to water down our rotation with FoL. So it pretty much becomes a choice between being able to sustain 60% HL spam and FoL hitting for more or closer to 70% HL spam. The closer we get to 100% the more stable the tank will become. It may be an easier way of healing at that point, but also better on those fights where we need big numbers that only HL will provide.
HL spam is a bit of a misnomer sometimes I find. To me it means my normal healing spell is Holy Light, but I'll use FoL if there isn't enough damage (or threat of damage) to warrant HL.
Naxx is very bad for us to pit our healing against, I do my pitiful Holy dps for like 1/2 the fights because it is so easy to heal. Sarth+3 and to a lesser extent Malygos are the only fights that can challenge some healers, and I am sure Ulduar will have much harder healing fights then that.
I find HL spam to be ineffective because my reaction time is reduced.
Stacking haste nullifies this argument. In addition, you have no issues keeping Light's Grace up with HL as your main spell. This is why, while you gem for int, you gear for haste.
@Galzohar: Tnx for your feedback in re "BIS" items. I agree that there is a prejudice against mp5 in the air that is definitely in disagreement with the values Rawr assigns to items (however, I do not always follow these values, as I prefer to work toward my overall goals with gear). I'll aim to pick up the Malygos shoulders at some point, but since my preference is haste stacking, I prefer to use the T7 item to get the 4pc. In other words, I prefer the Thaddius helm over the tier one, not because tier has mp5, but because it doesn't have haste. But I definitely think the arbitrary crit>mp5 after int/haste priorities needs to be reconsidered.
I disagree with the trinket choice for the 'best in slot' list. The only way I see a spell power trinket being better than something like Soul of the Dead or Greatness is if your gear is low on int and you are attempting to gear for maximum spell power to use mostly flash of light. There's no argument that 260 spell power is a very powerful trinket but when our Holy Light hits for 11k non crit and generally over heals by a decent amount it should make more sense to increase the amount of Holy Lights we can cast rather than increase the amount they over heal for.
There's no argument that 260 spell power is a very powerful trinket but when our Holy Light hits for 11k non crit and generally over heals by a decent amount it should make more sense to increase the amount of Holy Lights we can cast rather than increase the amount they over heal for
There's multiple ways to heal effectively. Relying on having bigger heals (be it holy light of flash of light) also changes the scale of effective healing. Being able to mindlessly spam more holy lights (due to int or crit) or swap out a holy light here and there because you have higher spellpower are all valid approaches.
That being said, I would definitely go for int till you can spam holy light reliable, but once you reach that, I see no reason to prefer crit over spellpower or haste.
I would be highly inclined to agree with lollers about and instead put forth [Soul of the Dead] and [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] as the 2 best in slot items due to the fact that spellpower is the least of our worries when tank healing nowadays but instead regen provides more return.
On another note, what do people think about [Figurine - Sapphire Owl] in a BiS gear setup, obviously being a JC 2x27int gems would be used for the gem slots; I'm an alt paladin but with raiding as it currently is a BiS gear setup is highly possible.
I also have to wonder why [Magroth's Meditative Cincture] is not on the belt list, 10 int vs 13ishSP and 15 haste at high gear levels isn't a huge difference, I know we're talking BiS but with the diminished value of spellpower due to overheal and haste due to high natural levels from gear should surely make this a considered piece unless you were replacing other pieces from the list.
Last edited by CrazyScot : 01/20/09 at 9:45 AM.
Reason: Fail at item name and forgetting set bonus
I still think the list in the first page of this thread has a better collection and gives you more freedom of choice for gearing in your personal taste. You know, one might like crit more than haste, or the job description can be different for two holy paladins in the raid. and also I think it would benefit the raid better if they weren't the exact copy of eachother gear and statswise. Consider Sarth+3D, the MT healing paladin needs very little haste as opposed to Patchwerk healing paladin. Crit+SP could give better result for MT healer in this situation unless you consider raid healing several targets in between fire breaths. In short, I think this might be your own wishlist, but saying some paladin carrying items other than those in your list doesn't have the best items would be just a missjudgement (no pun intended :P)
I would be highly inclined to agree with lollers about and instead put forth [Soul of the Dead] and [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] as the 2 best in slot items due to the fact that spellpower is the least of our worries when tank healing nowadays but instead regen provides more return.
I took a pass on [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]. It's a very nice trinket, to be sure. But the mechanics of the proc make it sub par for us. It doesn't grant you 300 Int worth of mana - but rather just expands your potential mana pool by that much. Really the only use for it is to try and sync it up with your Pleas. However, due to the differing cooldowns, this was determined to actually cause a net loss in regen a few pages back.
It was determined that if you try to sync up your Divine Plea with it then its a net loss in mana. But if you instead just DP normally, then due to the trinkets high uptime every 1 out of 3 or 4 DPs will be when the proc is active and you'll gain more mana.
[Soul of the Dead] and [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] as the two best in slot trinkets I am going for. Though [Figurine - Sapphire Owl] is pretty close to Greatness card, so I am not too worried about trying to spend 15k gold to get one now, I am just trying to get one before Ulduar.
I would also add [Seized Beauty] and [Life-Binder's Locket] to the list. Even though mp5 isn't the ideal optimization, I think they are better because there isn't a crit/haste one of the same item level.
01/16/09, 7:40 PM
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