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Old 12/17/08, 4:11 PM   #586
Arthaal
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Deathwing
What I don't understand is why you would cast glyphed FoL on a bunch of full HP targets in anticipation of damage instead of simply spreading a few SSs around:

1) You're wasting the initial heal to apply the 140% 12s HoT effect.
2) The HoT's value as a damage buffer degrades rapidly up to the 12s mark, then it's value is 0. SS on the other hand is up for the entire 30s with no degradation in its strength as a damage buffer.
3) SS has the additional advantage on raid damage that it increases FoL's efficiency on the targets taking damage through the +50% crit effect.

SS is superior in the scenario you are describing under just about every metric I can think of. The only downside is the heals aren't attributed to you, it costs a bit more and the initial damage tick isn't absorbed (as the shield must be procced before absorbing - kind of silly mechanic, but there you have it).

I, for one, am not going to be missing the old FoL glyph as it was implemented. Now if the HoT rolled or stacked, was redirected to a Beaconed MT and ticked every second... yes, then I'd be shedding a tear. SS is really very good in most situations where I would see wanting to use a FoL HoT effect though.

Percent modifiers R'US

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Old 12/17/08, 4:14 PM   #587
Pirjo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by ArkamisImm View Post
Think of how strong GoFoL would be on a fight like Eredar Twins, where the vast majority of the damage on that fight was on the raid, and typically guilds brought 10-12 healers, most of whom were aoe healers, and shamans were haste stacking for rapid chain heals.
Think of how power the now attainable HL spam would be with the GHL under those conditions. GFoL only boosts FoL's overall healing by 20%... so you are doing like 3.6k healing per cast (~1.15 sec) so 3.1k HPS. There was attempts back at 70, post 3.0 where my effective heal was over 3k for that fight spamming the ranged tank with another tank beaconed. My point is: FoL - glyphed even - is <50% of the HPS of HL assuming no GHL. A fully effective, GHL puts HL at about 3x time the HPS of FoL. When you are well geared, FoL is basically for one thing - topping off someone who has taken a small amount of damage and you don't expect to take more in the next 1.5 sec - while at the same time is not near other players who would get GHL healing were you to cast HL instead. If you are truly concerned that your heal will not land in time if you can HL vs FoL you should be using HS.

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Old 12/17/08, 4:47 PM   #588
Firecrest
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Scilla
Beacon allows me to do a lot more raid healing than I ever have before, by my main responsibility is still to keep the tank on his feet. In that regard the HoT FoL Glyph fails terribly.

My guild's MT is a warrior that sits on top of about 40k HP when fully buffed. My average FoL will hit for around 4k. Which is pretty good for topping him off when not much else is going on. A 2k hit with a HoT that ticks for a few hundred here and there is barely a blip on the radar. Not to mention that I'm generally chaining gigantic HLs - turning a vast majority of the HoT into wasted overheal.

I can see where the HoT could have been marginally useful in healing raid damage, but that is definitely not the Holly Pally forte. Other classes do that better, cheaper and easier than we do.

What FoL really needs is bigger numbers. And the new glyph will help with that.

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Old 12/17/08, 5:12 PM   #589
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by ArkamisImm View Post
Am I the only Paladin somewhat upset regarding the Glyph of FoL changes?
Perhaps. While you seem to work well with GoFoL, many other players do not like it. I guess enjoy it while you can, that playstyle will go away.

The issue with SS is it only works if you know they are going to take damage twice within a six second period.

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Old 12/17/08, 5:26 PM   #590
Pirjo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The issue with SS is it only works if you know they are going to take damage twice within a six second period.
This is a major issue in terms of effectiveness. It is basically the power of a druid rejuv, but over a longer period of time, doesn't stack with other people's SS, is ineffective against damage already taken, doesn't proc off some DoT damage, and requires getting hit twice.
The upside is that increases FoL crit chance! Too bad FoL with a 100% crit chance is still lower HPS then HL with a 0% crit chance.
Regardless of it's weaknesses compared to other class's tools, I still use it all the time, it is one of 2 mobile spells we have for healing and really the only option we have during a moment of calm. Placed on a tank it will proc 5 times, yielding higher HPM then anything else we have... (assuming 0 GHL healing and naxx lvl gear).

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Old 12/17/08, 5:35 PM   #591
Zaroua
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Pirjo View Post
This is a major issue in terms of effectiveness. It is basically the power of a druid rejuv, but over a longer period of time, doesn't stack with other people's SS, is ineffective against damage already taken, doesn't proc off some DoT damage, and requires getting hit twice.
The upside is that increases FoL crit chance! Too bad FoL with a 100% crit chance is still lower HPS then HL with a 0% crit chance.
Regardless of it's weaknesses compared to other class's tools, I still use it all the time, it is one of 2 mobile spells we have for healing and really the only option we have during a moment of calm. Placed on a tank it will proc 5 times, yielding higher HPM then anything else we have... (assuming 0 GHL healing and naxx lvl gear).
Sacred Shield is burst prevention; it's an extra 2000+ health on your tanks if he ever takes 2 hits in a row. The FoL crit component is pretty meaningless since if you *need* that extra 2k health on your tank for him to survive, then it means you'll be using Holy Light anyways.

It will also be a very efficient heal for raid wide aura dmg (Sapphiron/Felmyst) and DoT type dmg; once we get more encounters of the sort anyways.


Just look at the FoL crit chance as an added bonus, not the reason to use the spell.

Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory

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Old 12/17/08, 6:13 PM   #592
Cassey
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by Zaroua View Post
Sacred Shield is burst prevention; it's an extra 2000+ health on your tanks if he ever takes 2 hits in a row. The FoL crit component is pretty meaningless since if you *need* that extra 2k health on your tank for him to survive, then it means you'll be using Holy Light anyways.

It will also be a very efficient heal for raid wide aura dmg (Sapphiron/Felmyst) and DoT type dmg; once we get more encounters of the sort anyways.
I can't see it being practical to SS everyone. Depending upon the number of pallies you would spend most of your time SS and waiting for the GCD. Now if Blizz had a mass SS spell that would be the hawtness!

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Old 12/17/08, 6:39 PM   #593
Arthaal
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Deathwing
I don't think anyone is pushing for us to be keeping SS up on everyone. You never really expect druids to HoT a whole raid up either. But sometimes damage comes in predictable, small, inevitable amounts and SS works well in those situations. It's also great on tanks in 5 mans, heroics and on trash. So overall one of the better additions to Holy paladins in this expansion really.

The initial damage being necessary to proc the shield is pretty clumsy to my mind however, and I think we could all appreciate this great spell even more if that we're reworked to be more like a reactive PW:S on the target once per 6 seconds rather than a PW:S cast by someone slightly slow on the draw.

Percent modifiers R'US

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Old 12/17/08, 11:58 PM   #594
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Pirjo View Post
The upside is that increases FoL crit chance! Too bad FoL with a 100% crit chance is still lower HPS then HL with a 0% crit chance.
Indeed. I still try to keep up SS 100% on the MT, but only on Saph and running to the zombie eating boss are putting up mass SS useful for me.

Another thing, I am pretty sure FoL only gets the extra crit on that target while the Shield buff is up.

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Old 12/18/08, 2:19 AM   #595
Noules
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Onyxia
Originally Posted by Cassey View Post
I can't see it being practical to SS everyone. Depending upon the number of pallies you would spend most of your time SS and waiting for the GCD. Now if Blizz had a mass SS spell that would be the hawtness!
Well, SS has a ridiculously good potential spell power coefficient - 375% per GCD. While it requires a fairly specific sort of encounter to take advantage of it, SS seems to have by far the best scaling for GCD of any standard heal or shield effect. 375% spellpower per GCD is better scaling that any of the AE heals, I believe, so it really might be worthwhile in certain encounters to have a paladin provide constant SS coverage rather than direct healing.

Having two paladins split up the raid into two groups and then SS/FoL in sequence might really be the most efficient raid healing strategy, on paper, both in time and mana, assuming a constant stream of small (but not too small) damage. The problem is always if your raid has enough health to survive until the last member gets healed - but the raid damage has to be significant enough so that the SS absorption isn't wasted.

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Old 12/18/08, 9:57 AM   #596
Cassey
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
I always use SS for MT/OT in 5/10/25 mans, it helps a lot. Soloing it is amazing, so hope they do not nerf it. I guess I will start trying to mass shield people in 5 man groups then move from there. Maybe I will try SS in HeroicOld Kingdom as the Taldaram fight sucks as everyone takes damage and we have no AoE heal.

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Old 12/18/08, 1:40 PM   #597
odie85
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
I want to say thanks for all the helpful information. I used to raid as a ret paladin but respec'ed holy because apparently everyone is either ret or prot. The class has changed a lot since the last time I healed (when SSC/TK still had attunements) and this thread has allowed me to help a lot of holy paladins on my server. With that said here is my comment and question.

I have been using SS on any content I can, in 5 mans its amazing, in raids it's insanely helpful. I will throw it on the tank, holy shock someone who needs a heal (very good chance it will crit) and then holy light the tank. I have also started grinding honor and arena points because of peer pressure, a lot of guild mates are convincing me to pvp with them because they see how overpowered my mana pool is, and how large my heals are. A heal bot with 16-18k crit heals is pretty awesome and can completely change the outcome of a battle. Before in pve I would place it on the tank that I was assigned to heal, and never use FoL, PvP has brought some questions to mind.

The wording on the spell has me kind of confused. It stays on the target for 30 seconds, and the procs can only happen every six seconds. I understand that but does the increase to crit only happen when the damage is absorbed? If that is the case, (which I was assuming) how can you track the buff? Or does the 50% crit chance only happen if you have it placed on yourself and you absorb the damage?(doesn't seem likely) Also I assume it means the absorption effect can only happen every six seconds? The buff isn't that important, it would just be nice to know when you had 50%+ crit to FoL.

edit: grammar/spelling

Last edited by odie85 : 12/18/08 at 1:56 PM.


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Old 12/18/08, 2:27 PM   #598
ace05
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by odie85 View Post
The wording on the spell has me kind of confused. It stays on the target for 30 seconds, and the procs can only happen every six seconds. I understand that but does the increase to crit only happen when the damage is absorbed? If that is the case, (which I was assuming) how can you track the buff? Or does the 50% crit chance only happen if you have it placed on yourself and you absorb the damage?(doesn't seem likely) Also I assume it means the absorption effect can only happen every six seconds? The buff isn't that important, it would just be nice to know when you had 50%+ crit to FoL.
The 50% crit is only applied when the target has the absorption buff active. It is not applied when you simply have SS on a target. They need to have taken damage. The only way to track this is to either have a mod or be actively monitoring the target.

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Old 12/18/08, 2:31 PM   #599
Pirjo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
You place a buff on the target that can proc shields no more then once per 6 sec.
After they take damage (some dots don't count here) a shield effect procs, much like having casted a PW:S on that target. The duration of that shield is either 6 sec or after it has absorbed (500+0.75*SP) damage. Once 6 seconds have passed or it's absorption has been fully used, the shield in no longer present, only the buff that procs the shield.
The extra chance to crit only applies while the shield is present, not the 30 sec buff.

While monitoring the 6 sec shield may seem practical - if the target takes enough damage to eat the shield before your FoL lands, you will not get the extra crit chance. I use DoTimer (curse gaming) to monitor who I've given the SS buff, which also shows the shield duration, though I just ignore shield durations due to having too much to process mentally already.

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Old 12/18/08, 2:38 PM   #600
Kazekan
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
The 'absorb' is triggered by the first damaging ability used upon the player with SS active. The shield that's triggered has 2 components. One is the absorb portion. If enough damage is absorbed, the shield goes away and will be procced 6 seconds later if the player continues to be hit. While the shield is up, any FoL used against the target will have a +50% chance to crit. Once the actual shield is down, that crit bonus goes away. Basically, you either get the absorb, or you get the crit unless you're lucky enough to get a FoL off before the shield is gone, and then it still absorbs some damage.

From my use of the ability that's how it seems to work, but I could still be wrong, so maybe someone else can confirm.

Edit: Hey look, I'm 2 posts too late. Go me.

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