I have read the thread thoroughly and picked up on that yes, but as mentioned during normal DP usage you should in theory pick up a Greatness proc every so often, but the greatness of the DC:G is the raw intellect it gives, as with the JC trinket, apart from [Soul of the Dead] I don't see any trinkets with worthwhile procs and as nice as Illustration is, I'd rather see it go to the affliction lock/shadowpriests or other caster DPS before I picked one up to under-use due to healing effectiveness i.e. Assuming a 1 to 1 ratio of spellpower to direct healing (It's an example) and a 50% rate of overheal, that 1 to 1 ration in real terms becomes a 1 to 0.5 spellpower to effective healing making the 200 spellpower effectively a 100 spellpower trinket.

I'm a huge believer in the fact that intellect IS our new stat, I wouldn't use it to the detriment of other stats but with the raw amounts of spellpower/crit we gain at raid buffs and haste we gain from gear (with the right drops and choices) I don't see the point in picking trinkets to boost any of these 3 stats for current or future content and I don't think or see the point in switching items with these stats in unless there was a fight in a new content patch that required low amounts of healing for the majority of the fight and then an incredible burst that intellect doesn't provide from the same amount of itemisation points.

Saying that SP is diminished because of overheal is total BS. You use HL over FoL when HL overheals for the very reason that extra overheal has a chance to become effective healing, or if you look at it differently, there's a chance for more damage to actually be done to the target leaving it vulnerable if you used a smaller heal. While you could claim that all hits people take are exactly between 5k to 7k and therefore HL always overheals and FoL always underheals, in practice this is far from the case. There are countless times (when things are hard for whatever reason) where the MT is down 15-20k health and every big of healing counts in that case. Even squishy classes have >20k HP now and occasionally will take the damage that will need as big of a heal as possible to heal back up (besides, if they take less, I wouldn't bother skipping a heal on the MT since they're not in real danger). And I didn't even mention divine plea making all your heals smaller, thus increasing how often you need full size heals.

At the end of the day, overhealing caused by having too big heals is equivalent to overhealing done by the heals you had the mana to cast but didn't cast. Reducing overhaling on the meters just to have less "virtual overhealing" (due to mana not spent) is not a good habit. The other way around is equally bad, though. The only kind of overhealing reduction you should ever worry about is the kind that reduces overhealing without increasing "virtual overhealing" as much, or reduces "virtual overhealing" without increasing overhealing as much. After all, at the end of the fight, overhealing on the meters is exactly the same as the overhealing done by the heals you could've casted but didn't.

SP certainly does diminish due to overhealing. This is easily seen by taking absurd numbers. If you had 100,000 SP, would adding more spellpower help or just inflate overhealing? Certainly SP still has value, but it is diminished as your heals get larger. The same holds true with smaller numbers, as a heal for 4k produces less overhealing, less often, than a heal for 10k.

Overhealing by casting a large heal is very different from the heals you had the mana to cast, but didn't. That extra heal can be at a different target. Additionally, more frequent heals provide less spikes. You can see this by considering casting 1 heal for 40,000 every 6 seconds or 4 heals for 10,000 every 1.5 seconds. The target you're healing is much less likely to die receiving more frequent heals (assuming an equal level of healing per second).

I'm wondering why you dont have any malygos gear in your BIS choices, for example the [Boots of Healing Energies]? I have the boots there which seem better than the [Poignant Sabatons], despite the extra socket and the pretty nice socket bonus.

I was running rough numbers and I understand where you are coming from but you are incorrect, mainly by making the assumption that you (read I) will drop to using FoL at all in a fight, something I currently no longer ever need to do (in current content), as long as I have a replenishment buff and time my cooldowns well I can happily spam Holy Light for 5-7 minutes without going OOM (I've never had to run for longer). My http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terenas&n=Accalia as you can see is a "t7.10" geared player, something I imagine most repliers of the thread surpass.

So lets assume you heal like me (which I believe to be the best way of keeping a tank alive, throw the biggest heals you can as often you can i.e. virtually always Holy Lights, perhaps a GCD in SS when the tank is at full and Holy Shock is up in case it mitigates part of a spike). Now if the tank dodges an attack that I am pre-healing and as most of the time due to boredom and lack of requirement I don't cancel I will have hit him with ~10-11k overheal, of that ~10-11k overheal the base amount healed by the Holy Light is what we can call "real baseline overheal", the rest of the heal could be called "real spellpower overheal" I call it this because it's real and because this extra overheal came only from the spellpower I have from gear, on this heal my spellpower from gear was worthless, it caused a larger amount of overheal than I would have had if I had no spellpower on my gear.

Now that's taking it to the extreme, never will you ever run with 0 spellpower, but when considering a spellpower upgrade and how much of an upgrade it actually is you have to consider how effective it's going to be (the same goes for mp5 and haste but with these being infinitely more difficult to guesstimate I usually only consider it with spellpower). The only real way to grade this effectiveness I find is to calculate what I will get on average from that spellpower when my overhealing is considered and in simplest terms it is as I said; take the average overheal % you put out on fights and apply that percentage to the spellpower gained from your new shiny piece of equipment.

I am in the process of switching over my gems to +Int as I upgrade in Naxx10. I am very close to being able to maintain the HL "spam" but I'm having trouble remembering to use DP on every cooldown.

I was considering macroing DP into my HL casts, but I'd like to find out from the experts if this will have a significantly negative impact on my regen at the beginning of a fight. I tend to save DI for below or around 50% mana, so I'm fairly sure I don't want that one macroed into anything. I tend to think that would be a big waste to blow at the beginning of a fight. Any other advice on how/when you use your cooldowns, trinkets for HL spam would be appreciated.

I normally heal using Clique and Grid, if that affects how anyone would answer. Thanks for any help anyone can provide!

Its best to use DI during Bloodlust, since you will use a lot more mana during it. I normally save DF for HS to get an IoL proc. I have had to use it the most on Sarth+3 healing, for when a Lava Wave spawns and I need to move and do a lot of healing on the tank I am on.

I would NEVER put DP in a macro, since it causes a GCD. So hitting it when DP is up will cause you to not cast a heal, which your tank might die.

I frequently keep Favor macro'd to Holy Shock, and use it for a quick ~6K Shock into a <1 second HL (and this combo can also be used to raid heal and not get sniped by CoH). I just find the ultility of being able to command a great deal of burst on demand to be worth more than just saving some mana on a HL.

If you're going to spam HL through bloodlust, sure. But I actually just use the extra haste during lust to space out my casts more and even do a little bit of DPS while its up (Holy Shock+Shield+judge), since I can maintain my HPS with fewer seconds spent casting.

I prefer to keep DI macro'd to HL because personally, I find it difficult to predict accurately (or remember accurately) situations in which my HL usage will increase substantially over the norm.

The Lightbringer 2 pc bonus and 4 pc bonus have been switched. It now requires an unrealistic four pieces of tier 6 to hit the Holy Light set bonus.

I'm also one of those who frequently use Holy Shock in their healing patterns. (HS - HL - HL - HS - HL...) But I'm not sure if it's all right to hit it in every 6 sec just because it's an instant heal and it is likely to crit. So I'm like a "Holy Shock addict".
I noticed that in fights with massive raid healing, my holy shocks contribute to more than 30% of my whole healing done (and almost 50% if we count the number of "effective healing spells cast" instead of the "healing done" by them).
So is it normal (and efficient) if I use Holy Shock that much?

In my gear Holy Shock is 6,268 hps and 16.31 hpm, while Holy Light is 9,374 hps (not counting Glyph) and 20.51 hpm. So you are sacrificing efficiency and healing output for IoL procs, which in my opinion doesn't make up for it. Since with a reasonable amount of haste you will only save ~0.4sec on HL, because of the 1 sec GCD cap. I prefer to save HS for when I need to move, or someone will die before a HL lands.

Got any proof for this? I can't find any mention of this change anywhere on the EU PTR forum, the 3.0.8 patch notes or the lists of undocumented changes.

Glyph of Holy Light now correctly procs on yourself.


I can also confirm the change to T6 set bonuses on live servers.

Has anybody been able to do some serious testing on our HoP spell. Which spells are being locked out by it, for how long. Any other side effects? Some pretty far fetched theories are floating around at the moment, and I was looking for a more thorough assessment of the current mechanics.

Those are both outstanding. The first means Holy Pallies will do even better in PvP (and get 5% crit on Flash) and PvE raid healing and making people stop wearing level 70 gear is a good thing.

Nice best in slot list, what criteria did you use to come up with it?

I agree with the comments other people have said about the neck, ring, and trinkets. Though if you going to list well optimized ilevel 200 SP/Crit/Haste rings you should add the JC craftable Titanium Spellshock Ring Nice crit, Nice spell power with a socket no haste and mediocre Int but it matches up pretty well with the other rings on your list due to high crit and SP from the socket.

Also it got me thinking, When you gear gets to a certain point where you have decent regen (not go oom using HL for a few min) and decent output (your heals hit hard enough that you arent trying to play catch up) wouldnt it better to stack haste via gear till your GCD capped over any other possible stat gain?

I know haste isnt as good as it use to be with talented haste buffs, the nerf to downranking, and the lack of any bosses that hit hard enough or fast enough to really need haste but being able to fit in a third more 1.5sec or less casts/judgements and reducing your HL with LG cast time to about 1.33ish sounds pretty good. Lag probably hurts this a lot but something to think about?

I checked earlier in this thread and did some math out on how much haste is needed to be gcd haste capped assuming it does stack multiplicative (did some testing with jotp and a trinket proc and 999 haste was a 1 sec fol)

GCD Cap numbers
1639.5 Unbuffed
997.96 Jotp
794.29 Jotp+WoA
675.65 Jotp+woa+imp moonkin/imp ret aura

(has anyone been able to confirm the 676 number?)

I think with "best in slot gear" you can get about 600ish haste and swapping in some non haste gear for the next best haste/sp/crit item you can about 650-660ish?

So I'm wondering is if the raid buffed gcd cap is 676, is it worth it to sacrifice some stats to be gcd capped? I'm leaning to yes just cause multiplicative haste stacking seems too good to be true...
Or would it all be moot since HL isnt GCD limited but cast time limited (3279 haste need to make HL 1 sec or 1994 raid buffed, 777 with bloodlust/heroism )

Darkmoon Greatness I really do think this is a really nice trinket though I think some people forget about the other benefits of int besdies getting more regen from DP and replenishment. If you factor in kings and divine intellect this card becomes 113.85 int (116.12 with ember meta) and 379.5 int proc (387) thats a passive 23 Spell power .7% crit with a 30% uptime proc with 76 sp and 2.3% crit. With stats like that on the proc I wouldnt rate the jc trinket even close.


Just because you can put 2x27 int gems in there to make it have a huge chunk of int doesnt mean you should. I think prismatics are better spent in Blue sockets on other gear with good socket bonuses rather than wasting it on the 2mp5 bonus. In the big picture youll have less int on the trinket but youll have slighly better overall stats with no int lost. If your going to compare it to otther trinkets to be fair you need to compare it using 16 or 20 int gems. Now with that in mind a trinket with 73 int-81 int is still pretty good but not as great as Darkmoon and I would be hard pressed to call it even close to BiS.

I started reading the PvP thread on these very forums a few days ago. The spec you linked is all discussed over there. and many other PvP aspects of paladins. The holy paladin thread is mostly used for PvE healing discussion as far as I could see. Thanks for sharing, though. It's always nice to break your own stuns without trinketing out.

Btw, if you use it to remove your own stuns only, I recommend taking only 1 point in divine purpose. it is 50%. then make a macro that spams it like 8 times (it will cause no GCD until you're out of stun) and you will save one talent point to spend elsewhere.

Whoa there, easy on the smileys. I would take points off holy guidance and put them in JoTP, since haste > SP in arenas. Also I dont see how you missed vindication on that spec, you are already doing judgement of justice on a rogue and this is a free 20% reduction in all stats on him.

The only blue sockets of the BiS gear list come from the gloves of t7 and chest of t7 (if you choose to use it), the chest has a pretty "meh" bonus on it and as such I personally will disregard it in favour of the gloves (I'm not doing this currently though I know). This means that it is safe to assume that at this tier level 2x27int gems will be in the trinket as it provides the best bonus.

I agree when 2x20 int gems are in or 2x16 int gems are in the trinket looks a lot less attractive but I still find the one or two shot mana return on use to be pretty worthwhile when used appropriately (I have macro'd its use in conjunction with divine illumination).

*EDIT* This is assuming that you would use the t7.25 helm and use the sartharion chest, should you choose to use the t7.25 chest and [Faceguard of the Succumbed] then I would be tempted to sacrifice the t7.25 gloves socket bonus or possibly drop the JC trinket to use Soul of the Dead with DC:G and put my 3rd 27int gem in a red socket instead of using 9SP/8int or dropping a bonus.

The new HL glyph is simply great, I've been trying it out in a few HC's today with moderate to high aoe damage and I can simply keep all the dps alive by just doing HL's on the tank.
The new HL glyph, imo, opens up for stacking more SP since it doesn't rely on effective healing. I can already see how I will top healing done on sapphiron and possibly Malygos also without any problems with this new glyph.
Although I have to replace it in fights like Patchwerk (the dps in my guild are really lazy and whine as hell when I forget to replace my HL glyph) this glyph has become my no.1 glyph to use.
Not only has it a 20 yard splash but that the splashes are capable of criticals is awesome. I'm now on 40%-ish crit on HL, 34% base crit (selfbuffed) and at least one of the splashes will crit and they can crit for up to a non-crit FoL

I'm wondering if the splash healing will heal the Beacon of Light (not specced for beacon atm so couldn't check it myself), and if anyone else finds SP stacking more interesting now.

Eh? For the 1000th time, hatefull strike is not hp based.

Maybe they are using only one Hateful Strike soaker?

I haven't been online after patch yet, but still, I would think that it will not make you a raid healer now that you have 20yards range. Take it as a nice bonus to your meters while it's going to help a tiny bit with the AOE healers since they have a CD for AOE heals now.

There was a discussion before regarding using "Holy Bombs" in raid during the 6 seconds cooldown of raid AOE healer, casting 4-5 HL in the raid with the good splash heal, hence going for more SP. I advocated against it then, I'll advocate against going for stacking SP now. It's our new AOE heal in some ways, but I won't sacrifice my int/haste/crit gear for more SP for the minor advantage it can bring.

In my opinion, the change has been made only because of the huge hit boxes of raid bosses. That was causing the glyph to be more or less useless since you're most likely assigned to MT who turns the boss facing away from melee, hence further than 5 yards to anyone in the raid.