The Holy Paladin Guide for WotLK - Page 43

Alarius · 12/22/08, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Unlike dps classes, where after you reach a cap on a stat it becomes worthless (so that means there are few right ways to gear), healing and tanking classes do well continue collecting their favorite stats.

Therefore, since some healers like crit while others want lots of int, so there can never be a best in-slot wish list for healing. Same for tank, some may like lots of stamina, others may like lots of avoidance.

What there does exist is a few best in-slot items for a slot no matter what stats one prefers, for example the KT heroic mace is BIS and for shield using tanks the KT heroic shield is BIS.

That makes perfect sense, thank you for that bit of wisdom.

I think I will try to use Rawr again. I get a little frustrated with it because I feel like I'm not using it properly. Does it require a lot of setup or what? Does there exist or could someone write a quick how-to for someone to get the most out of it?

Roknroll · 12/22/08, 5:44 PM

With the new Glyph of Flash of Light coming out, it will give 5% crit to Flash of Light. It's a pretty powerful glyph, but requires us to lose one of our 3 solid glyphs in order to pick up FoL. I think people starting out in raids with minimal gear are going to be struggling with mana (having to HL a lot to keep up) and will want to keep Divinity and SoW glyphs to maximize their mana pool.

At higher levels of gear, however, I really think Glyph of FoL looks good and then you have to decide on losing Divinity of SoW. It'd be interesting to have a bunch of you take a look back at your WWS logs for fights to see which would be better to lose. Take a tough healing fight and look at the number HL, FoL, and HS that you cast and then add up 5% of their mana costs. See how that compares to the mana returned from LoH yourself or another mana user.

Glyph of SoW Savings:
HL = 64 mana per cast
FoL = 15 mana per cast
HS = 40 mana per cast

LoH Mana Returned:
On Self = 4680
On Other = 2340

For me, I've almost entirely been able to use Lay on Hands on myself, and most the time I'm not using it on myself it is cast on another healer. A lot of the fights I'm looking at, I'd get more mana back from LoH on myself than I would from 5% mana cost reduction. A lot of them i'd even get more back from LoH on another healer. The other benefit I come across a lot with Glyph of Divinity is the ability to help regen another healer in tough fights while giving myself mana.

galzohar · 12/22/08, 6:03 PM

If you're going to use LOH in a non-emergency situation, won't you get a lot more effective returns by talenting it at least 1/2 and putting it on the tank? Most fights it ends up not mattering and I usually forget to use it on the fights that do matter (and btw with 16-20m cd it won't even be available on all fights that are not progression and for progression you will most likely use it on the tank anyway). That said I wouldn't count it for more than the 1950 mana. Overall from WWS spiritual attunement doesn't seem to match it at all.

The FoL's glyph value can be determined from rawr, and will most likely depend a lot on your setup (which will then determine how much HL and how much FoL you get to do), but remember that if you do something like set activity % too high rawr can say you're using a LOT more flashes than you are in reality. If your real activity % is lower, you will cast slightly more HLs and a lot less FoLs to use the same mana over the same duration. I'm still not sure how to handle that issue (where a small change to activity % creates a big change in spell usage) - note that this isn't just a rawr issue it's a general thing I see in game too (that is, how aggressively I get to spam vs how much I have to move having a very significant effect on how much HL vs FoL I use).

Roknroll · 12/22/08, 6:16 PM

Galzohar,
I think your response is a little off target of what I was trying to say. I'm talking about the scenario where you ARE going to use Glyph of Flash of Light. You've already made up your mind. Now you have to decide which glyph you are going to replace.

Glyph of Holy Light would definitely stay. At that point, you lose either Glyph of Seal of Wisdom or Glyph of Divinity. Both glyphs are purely mana regen related, so the decision gets based on which glyph provides the most mana. It has nothing to do with Spiritual Attunement, since self-healing returns no mana. Also, with the minor Glyph of Lay on Hands, LoH will return an extra 20% mana, bringing it up to 2,340 mana.

Also, I'm talking about using Lay on Hands on yourself purely for the mana return (or on another healer). For current content, I really don't need to use it on the tank. I do in rare occasions, and in those fights I would have to be more conservative with mana after using it. In the fights where I don't need to LoH the tank, I usually don't need to LoH myself until well towards the end of the fight. At that point, I feel a lot more comfortable about not having it available for tank emergencies since the boss might be at his last 10%.

Endoscient · 12/22/08, 6:41 PM

There is no way I would ever consider dropping Glyph of Seal of Wisdom for Glyph of Flash of Light. Glyph of Seal of Wisdom is strictly better mana wise. GFoL reduces the cost of your average Flash of Light by 9.21 mana, while GSoW reduces it by 16. The extra 2.5% healed on average by FoL can no where near make up the difference of mana reduction GSoW offers with HL.

I might drop Divinity for it, since I rarely use LoH for its mana return. Its more for an "oh shit" moment on a tank, or the premptively to put up the Armor buff for an enrage (or similar mechanic). With 110k+ effective mana pools (pre-Illumination), I find its better used as utility then mana return.

I only have access to my Mac laptop for the next few weeks, so I won't be able to make any updates to Rawr currently. You can simulate GFoL now by setting the FoL bonus crit value on an item. When I get back though I will try to get a version out with the changed Glyph, and a better way to compare them.

beromar · 12/22/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

What there does exist is a few best in-slot items for a slot no matter what stats one prefers, for example the KT heroic mace is BIS and for shield using tanks the KT heroic shield is BIS.

what makes [Torch of Holy Fire] BIS over [The Turning Tide]? They both seem pretty equal in stats, the only difference being one has mp5 and one has crit, and 1 more int. rawr ranks torch slightly better than the sword, but from what I've seen it seems to favor mp5 a little more than some people do.

Malleus · 12/22/08, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by beromar

what makes [Torch of Holy Fire] BIS over [The Turning Tide]? They both seem pretty equal in stats, the only difference being one has mp5 and one has crit, and 1 more int. rawr ranks torch slightly better than the sword, but from what I've seen it seems to favor mp5 a little more than some people do.

15 MP5 is 180 MP60. 0.81% additional crit generates a return of 0.5% of your mana expenditure. So unless you're spending 36k mana per minute - in other words, spamming HL without pause - the Torch provides greater mana return. The 0.4% increase in throughput from crit is scarcely worth mentioning.

vorda · 12/22/08, 8:17 PM

Originally Posted by Malleus

15 MP5 is 180 MP60. 0.81% additional crit generates a return of 0.5% of your mana expenditure. So unless you're spending 36k mana per minute - in other words, spamming HL without pause - the Torch provides greater mana return. The 0.4% increase in throughput from crit is scarcely worth mentioning.

18 mp5 is useless if you have so much intellect you can't go oom though. The extra potential healing from crit, though not massive, is better than the mp5 at that point.

burghy · 12/22/08, 8:17 PM

15 MP5 is 180 MP60. 0.81% additional crit generates a return of 0.5% of your mana expenditure. So unless you're spending 36k mana per minute - in other words, spamming HL without pause - the Torch provides greater mana return. The 0.4% increase in throughput from crit is scarcely worth mentioning.

Following your logic mp5 is a better stat than crit, because on those items they have about the same budget.

Silmeria · 12/22/08, 8:25 PM

In these cases, you should really think of loot distribution as far as your raid is concerned. The Torch is BIS for Druids/Shamans/Priests (That's a lot of specs, too). Adding Paladins on top of that makes for a very competitive item. On the other hand, TT is Mages/Warlocks. Adding Paladins on top of that makes somewhat more sense. However if you have a heavy population of a particular class, then you should factor that into your decision logic.

Endoscient · 12/22/08, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by beromar

what makes [Torch of Holy Fire] BIS over [The Turning Tide]? They both seem pretty equal in stats, the only difference being one has mp5 and one has crit, and 1 more int. rawr ranks torch slightly better than the sword, but from what I've seen it seems to favor mp5 a little more than some people do.

You can't just come and say which one Rawr ranks better on two close items, because it is different for each person and there gear. Like for me and my gear it ranks [The Turning Tide] better then [Torch of Holy Fire]. I am going to try to get both of them, and just stick with whichever one I get first.

I don't see how 0.41% throughput is not worth mentioning at all. Of course if you only consider the mana portion of crit then it won't stack up to other mana stats almost all the time. When we are talking about the difference of the items that are the same ilvl, .41% isn't really that small. At my gear level 0.41% throughput is roughly 32 hps, which takes around 18-22 sp to get. So with that logic there is no point to even compare sp difference on items if it is less then 18.

People also need to get away from the idea that extra mana is worthless if you don't go OOM. Unless you are spamming HL the whole time, you can make use of more mana. This current raid tiers fight aren't that difficult (by design), so they really aren't going to test your mana pool and gear if you are in a high end guild anyway. When we are doing 3-5 min entry level fights, no your mana isn't going to get stressed.

Ngita · 12/22/08, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by Arfea

I think since the damage is scripted, it might not follow the kind of mechanic that allows SS to proc. Does any other class have a damage triggered proccing spell(similar to SS) that they would normally expect to proc, that doesn't, that anyone knows of? Or is the thing just bugged?

GC posted today in regards to Guardian Spirit.

Absorbs not (always) working is a known issue and should be easy to fix.

superfula · 12/23/08, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Endoscient

You can't just come and say which one Rawr ranks better on two close items, because it is different for each person and there gear.

Yes you can. Turning Tide is better for all Paladins

Budobo22 · 12/23/08, 4:40 AM

Just a quick note on the FOL glyph:USELESS in my humble opinion...
5% crit on a spell we never use (in raids)? Stacked on top of SS (assuming proc)? Doesn't seem all that helpful IMO. And definitely not worth giving up all the mana regen/control (major) glyphs we use (Glyph of SOW, Glyph of LOH).

The mana you save from the other 2 glyphs in question:

Originally Posted by Roknroll

Glyph of SoW Savings:
HL = 64 mana per cast
FoL = 15 mana per cast
HS = 40 mana per cast

LoH Mana Returned:
On Self = 4680
On Other = 2340

5% crit would increase your output by about 86 HPS (assuming FOL spam) and save (on average) 9.28 mana per cast (from illumination). NOTE: these calculations were done based on my avg casts/crits on FOL, currently at 2k SP.

Definitely not worth it ***unless*** you lack the gear to be able to cast more HL than FOL (i dont know what ratio the cast would have to be at, i can do the math later if anyones that interested. until then, I'd like to assume that the glyph is garbage).

Edit: Im definitely a few posts late on this one >.<

Palados · 12/23/08, 6:00 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

What there does exist is a few best in-slot items for a slot no matter what stats one prefers, for example the KT heroic mace is BIS and for shield using tanks the KT heroic shield is BIS.

And even in this case, as other people mentioned, sword from heroic KT is better than mace in quite a few encounters that I modelled. Not always, of course, but quite often.

What I found out (and hope the same trend will be kept in T8-9): there are 2 more or less equal plate items for each slot. Usually it's one with mp5/something and one with crit/haste. It is quite usefull for gathering 'effectiveness' gear and 'HPS' gear like avoidance/sta sets for tanks. Those 2 pieces per slot cover BIS for the whole range of available encounters. Just combine them to reach the desired degree of effectiveness/HPS.