Imp. Devo Aura isn't worth it over Conviction because no only do you have to take a bunch of less useful prot talents to get there, but Conviction is also very, very worth it, especially because you can grab Sanctified Seals immediately after it for another 3% spell crit.

Spell Crit is a holy paladins most important stat by far.

Sure, spell crit is important, but if you're in a 25 man raid without a resto druid or prot paladin, you may end up taking it anyway, since 6% throughput for all the healers is likely better than 8% crit for you.

Even with the nerfed JoW, isn't having that buff up 100% of the time better than the Ret Pally putting up JoL and the Holy Pally sometimes putting up JoW?

This is moot if a Prot or Ret Pally is around, but that doesn't always happen.


This is why the 2 spec idea on the fly is exciting, so you can get an extra 8% spell crit if the 6% healing is covered (Resto Druids are great, so it should be), otherwise get the Protection talents.

A shaman can cover the armor from Devo Aura assuming you had a Resto Druid.

Well if you are in a 25 man raid and you know you won't have a Resto Druid or Prot Pally then I would. But otherwise they give up significantly less (or nothing) to pick it up. Dropping 8% crit and -10% cost to instants is pretty huge though. If your guild doesn't have at least one Resto Druid for 25mans though I would suggest getting one, they provide a lot of benefits.

frmorrison, Depending on the fight you might be able to keep 100% JoW uptime anyway. If you can't (and only have one ret/prot) the benefit of 100% uptime, twice as strong JoL for a fight with AoE damage will probably outweigh 100% JoW. Its very dependent on the fight itself, so it will be better to talk about once we have some more example fights.

Okay, so I figured out how the Glyph of Holy Light procs. Non crits acted as Zarty says, but for crits the threshold is of the non crit values.

So if you get a crit Holy Light for 15000, it will proc on the effective healing if the effective heal is greater then 5000, otherwise it will proc on total.

I can post how I came up with this if people are interested.

edit: Updated the main post to reflect this.

If scrolling combat text or class timers isn't visible enough for proc tracking, try out Power Auras.



I'm currently ret, so that's actually my AoW proc notice (ignore the red crap, that's RF...), but it still gives the general idea. You can also use it to track beacon duration in groups or raids where you're the only paladin if you have it track the buff called Light's Beacon, incase you find Class Timers tracking clunky like I do.

One more addition for the original post: It might be worth pointing out under the hand of sacrifice section that if you bubble, the damage on the target is still reduced by 30%, but you don't take any. And, if you have divine guardian and are in range, that ups to 60% damage absorbed from the target. Take that pain shield!

Played with spell reminder this morning, it's pretty damn slick, very close to perfect for me. I wish it was just slightly more configurable, though it's pretty good out of the box. Biggest complaint: more subtle but distinct sound effects for alerts, please. I don't need 4 different kinds of explosions to choose from, but a couple of different dings and beeps would be useful. It would also be nice to have more configuration options for how each buff is displayed and alerted, there are some but not exactly what I want for a few of them. Overall way better than what I had before, though. Thanks.

I'd love to see the numbers, in PM if you don't want to post them in the thread.

Yeah I agree, having your holy paladin pick up 6% healing is really the absolute last choice for it. My guild has had the worst luck with finding decent resto druids, but hopefully we'll have one in wrath.

Sadly, if you're the only paladin in the raid, or there are no prot or ret paladins, a holy paladin will probably have to give up 5% crit from ret anyway just to get kings. Luckily, you'll probably want a prot paladin as much as you want a resto druid, not just for the 6% healing buff, but blessing of sanctuary is pretty amazing for tanks, and probably worth having up on the rest of the raid for the -3% incoming damage, if you have 3 blessings to go around, so a prot paladin might not free you from wanting a second source for BoKings. (kind of lame that the best two tank blessings are both only available through prot talents. Please make kings trainable or squeeze it into the top of a tree somewhere for the love of god. I would actually prefer that it be so high in one of the trees that it's really only available to one spec, if they're not going to make it trainable. Of course, that makes that particular spec required for raiding, but apparently their idea to spread out buffs to all classes didn't include blessings, for good or for bad.)

Incidentally, it might be worth having someone theorycraft out some of the blessing choices. In particular, it's not long before kings is better than BoW for mana purposes on any fight of reasonable length, and I think we may actually see it overtake BoWisdom outright in all situations for some casters, considering most of them scale regen with both spirit and int now.

I'm thinking blessing priorities will probably be something like this (I love how much simpler this got by killing off BoSalv and BoLight, by the way. Best ninja buff to the pladin class in wrath, imo.)

1 paladin:
1. Kings raid-wide; in fights where survival isn't an issue, might may be preferable for physical dps, and in fights where mana regen is an issue, it MIGHT be worth going for Wisdom for some casters (though as I said before, some may actually get more mana from kings relatively soon.)

2 paladins (non-prot):
1. kings everywhere
2. Imp. BoM (unless Imp. Battleshout is available), Imp. BoW

2 paladins (1 prot):
1. kings everywhere
2. sanctuary on the tanks, Imp. Bow/Imp. Might everywhere else.

3 paladins (1 prot):
1. kings everywhere
2. sanctuary on the tanks, might/wisdom everywhere else
3. might/wisdom on the tanks, sanctuary everywhere else

Ahhh that looks like sort of like Jim's Cooldown Pulse, which I used to use long after it ceased being maintained, it was nice and visible, but still subtle at the same time. CooldownTimers3 has that functionality as well now, though I'm not sure if it can handle random procs or not.

I pretty much made a quick program that looked through all of the of the entries and found if each proc was off the total or effective heal, and how much overheal the initial heal did. You can download it from Filefront, you need a *nix system with gcc, flex, and bison to compile it (like a Mac with Xcode installed). Extract the files and compile it with this command.
Then to execute it type this command
Where WoWCombatLog.txt is the combat log file. The grep command is to filter the combat log to only show Holy Light/Glyph of Holy Light heals. Then results should appear as something like this:
Shows the the highest percentage of overheal when it used an effective heal for the proc, and the lowest percent for when it used the total amount. It records this data separately for crits and not crits.

Since it converges on 66% it is a pretty easy logical leap that its checking based on what 50% of the non crit values are. 66% overheal on a crit is equal to having an effective heal of 50% of the non crit value.

Currently it is just hardcoded to only look at heals from Kallisti. To change that just open up "hl.l" and change where it says Kallisti to whatever player name you want to run it for, and recompile it.

On Professions:

I just saw that Tailoring can give 22 haste rating (instead of 18 mp5 via Darkglow) via Swordguard Embroidery. I am unsure if this stacks with normal cloak enchants.


Regarding Blessings, I think the best way to do that is list each class/sub-spec for Hybrids, then give the order of Blessings, with the point that if survival matters then Kings should be given priority. With the change to spirit and int for casters, I think that Kings > Wisdom.

For example, here is a start:

Ret Pally: Might, Kings, Wisdom, Sanc
Prot Pally: Kings, Sanc, Might, Wisdom (not sure if Wisdom is better than Might)
Holy Pally: Kings, Wisdom, Sanc, Might

Tank DK: Kings, Sanc, Might
DPS DK: Might, Kings, Sanc

Prot Warrior: Kings, Sanc, Might
DPS Warrior: Might, Kings, Sanc

Swordguard offers 90+ AP while a regular enchants offers 22 Agi or 23 Haste.
I think you read something for read and mixed up what it what.

And Embroideries don't stack with enchants, no.
So you should note that tailoring gives you the 18.* mp5 but you lose 23 Haste.

What Shadowguard Embroidery are you talking about? This is the one that I see Shadowguard Embrodiery that is for melee, which does make no sense to me. Yes I should mention you lose Enchant Cloak - Greater Speed for the Darkglow Embroidery.

I am also going to add a blessings section, and in it show the math of 10%int vs 109mp5

I disagree, because you have to spend 15 points in prot to even get to Imp. Devo Aura. Those 15 points are going to be fairly useless as a healer (except BoK) but that's still 10 wasted points.

When you can get benediction, heart of the crusader, imp BoM for raids, and 8% crit - every point is useful for buffing/healing.

BTW, anyone know if Benediction affects the new IoL making FoL insta-cast? Awesome if so!

You left out a few theoretical ways int scales better than mp5.

Each water elemental on cooldown provides 15 mp5 with 100 int (18 mp5 with glyph)
Each mana tide totem on cooldown provides 7.6 mp5 with 100 int (or 8.8 mp5 with glyph)
And if you're really desperate and can talk the priests into using it, hymn of hope is another 2.5 mp5 with 100 int.
And then if you're really desperate, seal of wisdom and judgement of wisdom both scale with your int as well...

Could someone clarify what happens if you have light's grace buff up at the same time as IoL? Do you get 1.5s holy lights (IOL only) or 1.0s Holy lights (both)? I swear I tested this but now I'm not sure.

My last testing (yesterday) it did not. Although it does obviously have an impact on Holy Shock.

Spells made instant through the use of talents/items do not benefit from talents that reduce the cost of instant-cast spells, so no the instant FoL would not get the 10% mana reduction.

That's boshit.

With minimal haste you get 1s Holy Light with LG and IoL up, ~0.8s with that and JoTP active, ~1.6s with only JoTP and LG.

Also, FoLs made instant are indeed not affected by Benediction.

I did test this. They stack, and for what little it's worth they further stack with the Tier 5 4pc bonus to give you a 0.5s Holy Light.

I have some questions:
(1) If i understood right, Benediction works on all base-instant spells (BoL, Judgement, Seals, Hand spells etc.)?
(2) Is Divine Plea affected by GCD and does it trigger the GCD?
(3) What is the StatMod of spellpower? The same as the old spelldamage? (Item level - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

1. Yes, any spell that says "Instant" on the tooltip without procs or talents

2. Plea uses the GCD and you can't use it during the GCD.

3. Spell Power = stat points to the old spell damage/healing, however heal spells get more benefit from spell damage than they did pre-3.0.

One thing you should add to you section on Hand of Sacrifice. You can also Beacon yourself and heal the MT. The reflected heals proc Spiritual Attunement returning mana. The same trick can be used anytime you will be guaranteed to take damage (like standing in the boiling water during Lurker as an example.

Out of interest, is there any reason why Imp. Concentration Aura isn't included in the PvE/PvP builds? I've always found it a pretty solid talent in both aspects of the game. Admittedly, since the change to spell pushback it is not as useful, however less time on Silences is pretty good.