Malleus

This is not the case. At the end of a six minute fight, 100 MP5 will always have returned 7200 mana no matter how much mana you started with, while maximum uptime of Plea and Replenishment returns 7200 mana for each 3000 mana in your full pool.

I see where you're coming from - you'll take half again as long to reach the point where you're onto MP5 "fumes" if you started with 30k mana as you would with only 20k, which means you'll have half again as much MP5-mana at that point. But it's a mathematical illusion; it's the extra mana you started with that stops you going OOM as quickly, not the MP5.

 

ElginRoko

That's not a statement I made. The point I was making is that there's no magical property of crit that makes it scale with mana pool that isn't shared by mp5, which is something that was implied a couple of pages back.

You say mathematical illusion, I say interesting statistic. I couldn't give a damn how much mana I have at the end of a fight, how much mp5 I have or how much mana replenishment is giving back, not directly at least. What I care about is whether time to fumes < fight duration.

I'll try and explain what I was saying in my initial post differently, since you've both misinterpreted what I'm saying:

For any given fight you can calculate the amount of mana returned due to crit rating and the amount of mana returned due to mp5. If you'd run that same fight with 10k more mana, those figures wouldn't move (replenishment and plea would've of course, which would be the reason int is the undisputed king of mana stats).

Asserting average case, if spamming HL sends you oom in 3 minutes, then X crit rating or Y mp5 will extend that to 4. Now if you increase your mana pool such that spamming HL sends you oom in 5 minutes, the time to oom after adding X crit rating will be identical to the time to oom after adding Y mp5.

For insurance reasons. Yes. That, and for freedom.

 

Endoscient

There is a "magical property" of crit that makes it scale with your mana pool. Mp5 gives a flat amount of mana in a given time period no matter what you do. Crit reduces the cost of each heal you cast by a percentage. So the more mana you spend on casting heals in a time period, the more mana the same amount of crit will restore.

The problem with that logic is that fights have a fixed duration, or more accurately a duration controlled by dps. You getting more gear and being able to heal for longer will not make the time you need to win the fight any longer. The point of mana in a fixed duration scenario is to be able to cast more Holy Lights instead of Flash of Light.

If I added 10k mana, how much mana I got back from crit better change. When you have more mana you cast a lot more Holy Lights, thus increasing crits mana return.

 

galzohar

effective mana =
( max mana +
max mana X 0.25 X DP usages +
max mana X replenishment % per sec X fight duration in seconds +
max mana X 0.24 X mana tide usages +
mp5/5 X fight duration in seconds +
mana spring mana restore per sec X fight duration ) X
1 / (1 - critX0.6)

As you can see non-crit factors are additive to eachother, and all get multiplied by the crit factor. You can look at it as either crit reducing the effective mana cost, or you can also look at it as each 100 mana restore critX0.6 mana, and that mana can again crit and restore crit^2X0.6, which can again crit restoring crit^3X0.6 etc etc, and the end result is the same - a 1/(1-critX0.6) multiplier to your mana.

From here you can see that to compare any stat to crit, you also need to take into account all other regeneration factors. However if you want to compare non-crit mana regeneration factors to eachother you can completely ignore crits since the relative benefit is not dependant on your crit (that is, the amount of max mana (or mp5 or whatever) needed to increase your effective mana by 10% is not dependant on how much crit you have).

Note that crit is in # and not %, so put in 0.5 for 50% crit or whatever.

 

EvadDeWahr

From mmo champion

Paladin (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Blessing of Kings – this spell is now a base ability trainable by all paladins.
* Exorcism – this spell now causes damage to all types of enemy targets. However, it always critical strikes undead or demon targets. This change should make sure paladin damage doesn’t drop when going from Naxxramas to later tiers of content.
* Shield of the Templar now causes your Avenger’s Shield and Shield of the Righteousness to silence targets for 3 sec. The old damage bonus of this talent has been folded into Holy Shield, Avenger’s Shield, and Shield of the Righteousness.
* Ardent Defender, Improved Hammer of Justice, One-Handed Weapon Specialization and more have had their ranks reduced.
* Guarded by the Light – no longer reduces the mana cost of shield spells, but now has a 50/100% chance to refresh Divine Plea duration.
* Judgements of the Just – now also reduces the cooldown of Hammer of Justice by 10/20 seconds and increases the duration of the Seal of Justice stun effect by 0.5/1 second.

Finally BoK baseline... I remember a lot of discussion about that just before Wrath went live.
Exorcism on all is an interesting change.

 

galzohar

The problem with bok being baseline is that it's not enough to reduce the pally requirements that currently exist when you want to make an optimal raid. You're still going to need 3 paladins to cover all buffs and 2 to cover most buffs (or all buffs if you have 2 warriors), except now the specs will be less restricted. If they wanted to reduce the amount of paladins required in an optimal raid, they'd have to also do something about the fact that wisdom is unique to paladins (for example, making mana spring raid wide and not stack with wisdom).

 

• frmorrison

There are very few classes that can even use 3 Buffs (I am assuming BoSanc is being removed), so you can use 10 min buffs on hybrids to have 2 Pallies cover everyone.

Enhance and Ret don't need need Wisdom, and only MM hunters have mana issues (they have to swap to Viper).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

HolyCow

So when the DP penalty hits 50%, what will you guys be gemming, and how often will you be using DP?

Of course it will depend on what the fights are like, but just wondering what you guys think =)

Personally I might start gemming all haste. This way it won't be so bad mixing in flash of lights (since the more haste you have the easier it will be to recover from the tank taking a big hit while you're casting a FoL). But I'm not really sure.

 

Apollion

If anything int will be more in demand than it has been before. By stacking more int we get more from replenishment and also can cancel the buff early and still get same mana returns as we would have otherwise. It doesn't surprise me though to see a few people reverting to the FoL playstyle, with gearing for spell power and haste to make up more for the HPS, not sure what my opinion on that is still. It might be something similar to what arcane mages dealt with in TBC. If you've got the 4 pc t7 probably stick with the HL spam playstyle (with watching mana a bit more) and if you don't then maybe FoL is an option. At best you can call this an educated guess, I'm pretty much gonna need to get on a PTR before I can really say something with some evidence.

 

galzohar

While not using DP as much lowers the value of int compared to other stats, int still stays well ahead of all other stats even when setting the cooldown on DP to 20 min (maximum possible on rawr). Therefore I think it's safe to assume that even without using DP at all int will still be the top stat. In fact it only drops a little compared to crit and doesn't drop a lot compared to sp, the only big difference is how much it drops in comparison to mp5. Int will not be better than it is now, it will be worse, however less people will be claiming that they don't go oom and start to actually bother to play according to the numbers.

 

Tzeni

Enhance and Ret will get battle shout anyway, if you run with 2 warriors. So they can get wisdom instead of Might if running with 2 paladins.

 

hockeykyle191

So is there a set amount of +healing, stats, etc. that a holy paladin needs to have before they can heal heroics?

 

maxi

This one belongs to simple questions thread, link here:
Paladin: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

The answer is - you can start easier heroics pretty much as soon as you ding 80 (assuming you took healer quest blues from icecrown or peak quests. To reliably heal Loken you want to be in full 80 blues. That's ~1400sp and ~16k unbutfed mana.

 

kaelstrom

Can someone calculate how long we can last with lets say... 50% crit 500 haste etc?

 

galzohar

Rawr will tell you how much healing you can do in a given fight with your gear and raid, I think that's much more useful information. Download it and use it.

 

Zaelen

Another important thing to note about DP is the ability to simply cancel the buff when you need to get back into the fight. Even if you "only" get 2-3 ticks of Divine Plea, you're still netting 10-15% of your max mana every minute. Very much like the change and certainly does nothing to deter from INT/Crit stacking.

 

Sansei

I would believe if they did such a change that mana spring does not stack with wisdom and is raid-wide, raids would still use wisdom and get the shaman to use some other totem, because you can easily outrange a totem, a totem can be destroyed, shaman can die, totem might need refreshing. All of those things make it still inferior to wisdom buff which will keep ticking during the course of the fight and beyond (can't keep totem up while raid is moving) And I don't see why you

 

maxi

Actually, it seems that the new DP change might have pallies embrace the "look for breaks in healing" playstyle of priests and druids, who basically try to catch every single oo5sr spirt tick they can. Pallies. in a similar fashion, will likely be looking for ways to use DP effectively as well.

DP has an advantage over spirit is that it is effective immediately after used.
It also has a disadvantage in that it can only be used once a minute.

 

EvadDeWahr

Looks like they want to "fix" DP asap. mmo champion is talking about 3.0.9 being released this week and has these tidbits for Paladins.

Paladin (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* The duration on all Seals has been increased to 30 minutes and can no longer dispelled.
* Divine Plea: The amount healed by your spells is reduced by 50% (up from 20%) but the effect can no longer be dispelled.
* Sanctified Seals: This talent no longer affects dispel resistance, but continues to affect crit chance.

 

Kallell

I'm amazed at 30 minute seals. I never thought I'd get a present so nice, and it's not even Christmas!


Finally have a bit more time to squeeze in all the cooldowns between Holy Lights.

Certainly should be an increase in threat/dps for our prot/ret friends. Pallies just a bit more efficient.

 

thedudeabides

Hi everyone, there is a ton of great information here. To change topics from the int/crit/mp5:

What Strategy do you use when deciding when/who to cast Beacon on and why?

I usually end up casting it on myself when the raid as a whole takes damage or i start being attacked. This allows me to heal the group and especially the tank without worrying about my health. This can make me pull aggro on bosses with adds, but the beacon procs make me practically invulnerable as long as i am spamming HL on tank or raid member. This works great during raid wide damage situations. So basically i use Beacon as an "oh %$#@, i am taking damage" button.

I never cast it on the tank, it appears to be just a waste as the tank is almost always being topped off. Obviously in situations with the OT and MT taunt/trading boss it is on either of them.

I find that in 10 raids, I am assigned to tank heal. When the tank is topped off and has SS proc is up, i will heal any of the other raid members. I find that trying to pick a dps or healer to Beacon usually ends up a waste, since the damage they receive is not consistent.

Am i missing effective use of Beacon?

 

• frmorrison

Except for PvP, Beaconing yourself is generally not a good idea, because you lose SA mana regen.

I beacon the OT usually while healing the MT. If it is a one tank fight, I beacon the MT so he gets a extra heal or two when I raid heal.


It seems Plea is getting the nerf tomorrow, time to use Int gems if you haven't already.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Kallell

This is just my personal preference, and I've only attempted 10mans so far.

I always beacon my target, which is usually the MT.

I then heal with Holy Light. Yes this is inefficient use of the beacon if the heals are directed at the beacon target. However, I will also raid heal with Flash or HL depending on if we have 2 healers or 3 (we take 3 healers for KT/Sapph still). I am usually able to put a significant number of raid heals out, maximizing my efficiency while ensuring the MT doesn't die. If it's a high-incoming damage situation and I only heal the MT, the efficiency of the beacon is lost, but it's always ready at least. Running with a shadow priest, ret paladin, and warlock gives quite a few options for useful raid heals. Also, if it's strictly a two tank fight (Patchwerk) I can either solo heal it for fun with Beacon, or have the other paladin put his beacon on the OT, and we heal opposite targets with high efficiency.

 

gallamann

I find Beacon situational. Use the Beacon self strat on Malygos and Loken. Tanks on Patch and Sarth 3D, probably would use on Gluth but I always kite the zombies. Most encounters though, I am on MT duty, in that scenario I am not there to heal the raid, just don't see any advantage to tossing Beacon on anyone, nor do I see a disadvantage. Aka if you have the mana, using it doesn't hurt. BT had a fight perfect for Beacon, Illidari Council, there I healed raid damage (FoL was perfect for that) and kept an eye on a tank, there beacon on the tank I was watching would really shine.

Find a style that works for you and run with it, as long as your killing content, then whatever you do is working.

Love 30 minute seals that can't be dispelled, gives us some more GCD room. Anytime they free up GCD's for holy paladins, I am one happy camper. Now if they would just change Sacred Cleansing to clean 3 targets!!!

 

Roknroll

with the new DP changes, I'm probably going to make a cancel aura macro to remove DP when I cast Holy Light. That way I can pop it and get a couple seconds of regen before I cast again. I'll probably put a shift modifier on my hotbar button with the macro to instead cast without canceling just in case i need a few extra ticks.