To be honest about the only change (without adding a new spell) that would change my current play style is to remove the CD on HS. But I do not believe that even this would overcome the great advantage of HL with Glyph.
Oh man, you thought Paladins were bad in Arenas before, removing the cooldown on Shock would destroy other healers (and would make Shockadin into an interesting spec).
I doubt anything is happening with Holy, other than some additional mana nerfs and possibly an increase in Shock cooldown.
However, more glyphs will be added in a future patch, so perhaps Flash will be useful in a raid with a new glyph (assuming the old HoT on Flash glyph was added, that may be prove useful). Or something that turns Lay on Hands into an AoE heal would be fun.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Just a quick thought. Would it be worth it to put 20 points in the Protection tree to pick up Improved Devotion Aura for the extra healing and Divine Guardian for those high damage sections of certain boss fights? Or is it more of a priority to maintain Concentration Aura?
I go 17 into Prot for divine guardian all the time. it's useful for eating breaths on sarth and for limiting raid damage tremendously if you're going for immortal. tree of life and the healing from devotion aura don't stack though so you can put those 3 points elsewhere.
I go 17 into Prot for divine guardian all the time. it's useful for eating breaths on sarth and for limiting raid damage tremendously if you're going for immortal. tree of life and the healing from devotion aura don't stack though so you can put those 3 points elsewhere.
Question, will the DG talent absorb the damage done by gluth's decimate? The ability is unconventional so wanted to check, we've had some random "bugged" deaths from decimate involving commanding shout/Imp aura thats ruined immortal runs in past. So I recon I'll start running with it for our immortal runs, would be really good to use during MC on KT too i guess.
Question, will the DG talent absorb the damage done by gluth's decimate? The ability is unconventional so wanted to check, we've had some random "bugged" deaths from decimate involving commanding shout/Imp aura thats ruined immortal runs in past. So I recon I'll start running with it for our immortal runs, would be really good to use during MC on KT too i guess.
Yes, DG reduces Decimate damage for all raid members within 30 yards of you. I've been doing that since my tank died on decimate
While speaking of DG, I'd like to get some feedback from others about the use of this talent for certain encounters like 3D and 3-healing Patchwerk in order to stack DPS. My guild-leader thinks it's just about the best thing since sliced bread; I think that it is certainly nice, but by no means necessary. For example, on Patchwerk with such little healing, I would think constant Winged-HL Spam during the enrage is better than the two GCDs + the cast time on the next HL it will take for the tank to get the benefits of the damage reduction due to DG and HoSac. Any experience/thoughts on this would be helpful.
I also think we go a little healer heavy. For example, our last 3D kill we had two holy paladins DG specced (myself included) and a Disc Priest on the MT. For each breath (whenever they hit really hard, when the last drake is down?) the healer would pop his respective cooldown. I've heard of Paladins solo healing the MT for 3D and I would think that tank cooldowns + a bubbled sacrifice would be enough to outlast the breaths if we had more DPS due to less healers. How does your guild handle the healing on 3D and do your paladins go DG?
I swear by DG. 8% crit and and 5/5 Benediction is great, but DG can benefit virtually every fight attempt in WOTLK atm.
Here's a list of where DG may apply:
Anub - Locust Swarm
Faerlina - Enrage
Maexxna - Enrage
Noth - Sorceror AoE
Heigan - AoE diseas
Loatheb - Inevitable Doom
Instructor - On MCed tanks
Gothik - Death Knights
4H - Marks
Patchwerk - On tanks
Grobbulus - Slimes
Gluth - Decimate
Thaddius - Not too applicable
Sapphiron - Frost Aura
KT - On tank
OS3D - Breaths/Twilight Torment
Malygos - Phase 2
VoA - Stomp
I wouldn't rank your gear by what stats you think you're lacking and what stats you think you have enough of. Instead, look at the overall healing ability you have which is the result of adding all the stats u properly (in other words, use rawr). One could have 0 mp5 and be awesome, or 400 mp5 and suck, it really depends what other stats he can get or is getting instead.
In your case, Padalin, the only significant improvements you can actually get comes from KT and sarth with drakes, as well as picking up real professions (leveling up JC and picking up BS or even LW/ench instead of herbalism). You could also use better gloves and 10 stats on chest, but those would be very small upgrades (then again that would allow you to use malygos' shoulders which are a bit bigger upgrade).
Something to note about burst (mostly haste, somewhat sp and tiny bit int) as opposed to efficiency (int mostly but also sp crit and mp5) and gearing for future fights:
If you don't end the fight with mana remaining, upping your burst ability (at the cost of efficiency) is completely meaningless. If you can't use all your mana even if you try, getting more efficiency is meaningless. Most current fights are somewhere in between. I currently gear around 1% efficiency (by rawr) equaling 1% burst (by % increase to non-crit HL HPS), however I try get gear that's providing more efficiency at the cost of burst as well as more burst at the cost of efficiency, just in case some future fights put an extreme stress on either one of those without needing the other. For example, healing intensive fights that last either 2 min or 10 min would require the exact opposite gearing approach, while you may think you want burst for both, if the 10 min fight is actually intensive you will need the efficiency a lot more as you will not be able to use any of that haste when you're oom, while in 2 minutes it's not really possible to go oom spamming HLs so you can't really use all that mana when the boss is dead or enraged.
I too am a user of the 51/17/3 spec and I can honestly say that it is amazing. When my raid leader asked my thoughts on it, I was extremely hesistant given what I was having to give up. The 8% is great for us but it doesn't reallly help our raid. Having Divine Guardian is vital with any Immortal run and of course Satharion +3.
I don't necessarily use DG for the Bubble/Sacrifice move, but I do use it anytime there is massive AoE damage. It is a God-send for any boss that enrages.
DG has saved our raid groups numerous times - I was the only person alive and killed Thaddius with a HoW after he enraged on our worst run, not to mention how valuable it is for 3D Sarth.
That being said - for the easy factor that is Naxx 25 I feel that only 1 Holy Paly per 25 man needs this skill. We usually roll with 2 Holy Palys per 25, one 51/20/0 (Our resto druids never log on) and the other is 51/0/20.
The thing about DG specs is that it's so much easier to spec for Retribution, provided you run with a moonkin of course. Everyone keeps downplaying the 8% crit, 10% cheaper instants, but that's overall a lot of stats. Moreover, apart from shorter cooldowns on HoP and Kings (arguably, Improved Righteous fury if you ever heal tank or kite the chows), you end up with a few more wasted talent points to get there as well when compared to a ret paladin going 0/17/54.
Both specs lose some nice stuff getting Guardian, but the Ret loses the least (2 dps talents and 5 utility talents). The issue with a Ret having it is a normally you use Wings nearly every 2 minutes, so when the Ret needs to bubble that may be before the 30 second shared cooldown is up.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
If you are picking up DG for an "oh shit" button for the raid, I think it's a waste. the "oh shit" button is used rarely and you never know when it's needed. crit gives you increased healing output, and mana regen. then there's more mana savings from your instant casts. the increased heals and mana regen for every single encounter will outweigh the occasional raid shield.
if you are picking up DG for a specific encounter where you know exactly when you'll use it (and it is used every time) then it's a great talent (although no current encounter needs it). Ret's probably the best to pick up DG in this situation. they often have bubble on cooldown, but if you are using DG for a specific encounter for a specific boss ability, it's easy for ret to just not use Avenging Wrath. All other fights where DG is unnecessary Rets just use AW as they normally would.
always think in terms for the raid, and not you personally. if you feel that it's absolutely necessary to have Divine Guardian, then ret might lose a few % to their DPS. Overall raid dps, though, goes down much less since there are 14-15 other dps as well as the dps from the tanks. If ret loses 5% personal DPS, the raid really only loses ~0.3% dps. With healers, there are only 6-7 total, so a paladin losing 8% crit and hurting for mana will affect the raid a lot more.
I've got a little question, one that I've been struggling with.
Is it overall to use the t7.5 chest and the malygos shoulders or just stick with t7.5 shoulders and get a better chest(Currently have[Chivalric Chestguard])
None of the other paladins in my guild have offered me any conclusive answers and my own calculations shows a fairly minimal benefit.
Keep the gloves, shoulders, legs, and one of the above T7.5. You can get a slightly better shoulder, but you can get a bigger upgrade by subbing out the helm or chest.
The chest from malygos is probably best choice if you don't have shaman competition for it (for most fights, at least, where armor won't matter). If that's not an option, though, the shoulders from malygos are the best choice. Faceguard may not have mp5 but it doesn't give as much efficiency as the T7.5 making it slightly subpar if you count 1% burst = 1% efficiency (very subpar if you count mostly efficiency, and quite superior if you count only burst). In the end what items you pick will really depend on how much you value burst VS efficiency - not just "I care about both", but exactly how much of one you're willing to give up for the other.
Both specs lose some nice stuff getting Guardian, but the Ret loses the least (2 dps talents and 5 utility talents). The issue with a Ret having it is a normally you use Wings nearly every 2 minutes, so when the Ret needs to bubble that may be before the 30 second shared cooldown is up.
I only count swift retribution as a true DPS loss for the ret, and, with my precious moonkin, it wouldn't even come into play. I suppose improved blessing of might could also be considered loss, but I leave that for holy/ret to pick up or generally have warriors keep up the improved shout in raids. Your point with the 30s shared cooldown is a good one though. I've been on a break from the game for the last few weeks, but are holy paladins not using AW now that it doesn't fully lock out DS? I'd think the extra throughput might be useful sometimes.
This spec also makes me wonder what, if anything, will replace kings in tier 1 prot... hopefully something worthwhile for 0/17/54 ret or 51/5/15 holy paladin to invest points in.
i don't find myself using AW as holy all that often, mostly due to how much overhealing I do with holy light spam. It's not just the overhealing % from WWS, but the numer of casts that end up overhealing compared to total casts. Almost every one of my Holy Lights ends up being partially overhealing (whether it's a crit or not). It might be 10k overhealing, or only 250 overhealing, but either way having 20% more healing is completely wasted on those casts. If anything, I use AW to help negate the healing loss during Divine Plea.
For a fight like Sarth 3D, i'd rather have bubble available to me at any moment. I'm the paladin with Righteous Fury up in that fight and sometimes it gets a little close with the adds. Once I've used my bubble, tho, i'll pop AW during tough parts of the fight.
I’ve always been curious about other holy paladins use of AW. Personally I really only use it to increase my longevity rather than my throughput by popping it during bloodlust and using FoL. The gain to FoLs hps is very minor (dropping it from 1.03 second to effectively 1.0 seconds) but it allows for faster, reactive HLs as opposed to HL “spam”, saving me some mana. I also try to time my Divine Illumination for bloodlusts, but I’m sure that’s pretty standard.
With that said I almost always forget I even have the ability, which is something I really need to work on. With my guilds first serious Sarth + drakes attempts coming up I have a feeling I’ll need to learn.
I’ve always been curious about other holy paladins use of AW. Personally I really only use it to increase my longevity rather than my throughput by popping it during bloodlust and using FoL. The gain to FoLs hps is very minor (dropping it from 1.03 second to effectively 1.0 seconds) but it allows for faster, reactive HLs as opposed to HL “spam”, saving me some mana. I also try to time my Divine Illumination for bloodlusts, but I’m sure that’s pretty standard.
With that said I almost always forget I even have the ability, which is something I really need to work on. With my guilds first serious Sarth + drakes attempts coming up I have a feeling I’ll need to learn.
you'll probably find that using your bubble in a pinch is better than AW. But if you haven't used your bubble by the time the 3rd drake lands, use AW when he opens his portal and Twilight Torment goes up. 20% more healing will help the raid a lot from your Glyph of Holy Light splashes.
I don't have any idea what you mean when you say you use DG "on the tank(s)". DG is a passive bonus to a spell you can only cast on yourself. You may use it in conjunction with Hand of Sacrifice on a specific target, but DG itself is something you put up in situations, not on people.
Although there are good times to use DG on many fights (Frost Blasted melee on KT being first and foremost), I stand with the consensus: it's an emergency measure to be used when something that shouldn't go wrong does. As such, it's not worth a Holy Paladin shifting 17 points from crucial talents when a Retri can shift 7 from talents that are covered by other classes.
Holy is unaffected by the 50% outgoing damage reduction while in Divine Shield, making a Holy Paladin using DS more efficient (during those 12 seconds) than a Ret Paladin doing the same. So while it may be easier for a Ret Paladin to pick up DG, they'll also take a larger effectiveness hit (losing wings AND doing 50% damage for 12 seconds) in exchange for using DS. Just some food for thought, especially on fights like Sarth + 3D where downing drakes quickly is crucial.
While that is technically true, you're essentially comparing a 170 DPS loss on a 3min fight (that's 3.5% of throughput, down to -100DPS/2% on a 5min fight) vs. denying one of your healers 8% crit and 4% off instants. I think this might be a poor trade-off in a 25man where 5-6 healers are present to share the load, but i'd probably take that trade in a 10man if I thought I needed the utility of DG.
Holy is unaffected by the 50% outgoing damage reduction while in Divine Shield, making a Holy Paladin using DS more efficient (during those 12 seconds) than a Ret Paladin doing the same. So while it may be easier for a Ret Paladin to pick up DG, they'll also take a larger effectiveness hit (losing wings AND doing 50% damage for 12 seconds) in exchange for using DS. Just some food for thought, especially on fights like Sarth + 3D where downing drakes quickly is crucial.
Even if you blow AW when the first Heroism is used as Tenebron lands and need to bubble when Vesperon lands, your 30 second shared CD will expire at the same time as AW comes off its natural CD (assuming 2/2 talent). You should probably plan on delaying your third Wings to line up with the second Heroism anyway, so there's no loss of DPS for using DG other than the 50% reduction during the bubble time.
Losing maybe 30k potential damage is not a larger effectiveness hit than a significant increase in mana expenditure across the full duration of a healing-intensive fight.
I can't really see a need for speccing for Divine Gaurdian in any of the content atm. I could see maybe on 3D, but priests should have all those CDs covered. I would think not speccing into the crit and reduced instants in Ret wouldn't be so nice.
You're comparing 30% less damage taken *RAID WIDE* to priest cooldowns? No other class really has equivalent utility at the moment. It's an amazingly strong ability and can in fact find use in many current encounters. Whether or not the difficulty level warrants its use is another story. Sarth 3D is the exception right now, but Ulduar is likely to provide us with more situations in which it might be incredibly valuable to use.
Also, I agree it costs Holy quite a bit to spec and have already articulated that I believe retribution loses the least from speccing and using it... I can live with the 100DPS loss personally (trading 100 DPS for that kind of control over a fight is pretty sweet).
02/20/09, 1:06 AM
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