I agree it costs Holy quite a bit to spec and have already articulated that I believe retribution loses the least from speccing and using it... I can live with the 100DPS loss personally (trading 100 DPS for that kind of control over a fight is pretty sweet).
In current content, I would prefer 100 more dps than greater healer efficient on fights that are already trivial to heal. That will likely change for Uludar, but your point above can be countered by "sacrificing 100 dps for additional control on a fight where additional control isn't really needed isn't really worth it".
I haven't healed Sarth3D so I'd assume that could be the exception to the above.
You're comparing 30% less damage taken *RAID WIDE* to priest cooldowns? No other class really has equivalent utility at the moment. It's an amazingly strong ability and can in fact find use in many current encounters. Whether or not the difficulty level warrants its use is another story. Sarth 3D is the exception right now, but Ulduar is likely to provide us with more situations in which it might be incredibly valuable to use.
Also, I agree it costs Holy quite a bit to spec and have already articulated that I believe retribution loses the least from speccing and using it... I can live with the 100DPS loss personally (trading 100 DPS for that kind of control over a fight is pretty sweet).
True, it is an amazing tool. As to the subject of the current content not needing it this is true also, I have done 3D runs with both specs but really didn't see the difference in healing needed/done, maybe it's dependent on the quality of healers that a guild brings.
In current content, I would prefer 100 more dps than greater healer efficient on fights that are already trivial to heal. That will likely change for Uludar, but your point above can be countered by "sacrificing 100 dps for additional control on a fight where additional control isn't really needed isn't really worth it".
I haven't healed Sarth3D so I'd assume that could be the exception to the above.
You missed the first paragraph of the last post where I said just what you just reiterated. I've also been prefacing every post regarding DG with the *probably not required for current content* tag. In any case, the argument wasn't for speccing DG in current content, rather it was, if you were to want a DG specced paladin, which paladin specc picking it up would result in the smallest loss to your raid group. Taken in context, my previous post argued that retribution lost least overall for the raid by going DG, especially in light of the kind of fight that require it.
To put it into an even larger perspective: in a 25 man setting (with 5 healers, 2-3 tanks) you're looking at a sacrifice of 0.3% of your raid DPS (being generous and assigning ret speccing it a 200DPS dock - which it would only be on very short fights - and assuming an average 4k DPS * 16 DPSers, 2k DPS * 3 tanks).
You missed the first paragraph of the last post where I said just what you just reiterated. I've also been prefacing every post regarding DG with the *probably not required for current content* tag. In any case, the argument wasn't for speccing DG in current content, rather it was, if you were to want a DG specced paladin, which paladin specc picking it up would result in the smallest loss to your raid group. Taken in context, my previous post argued that retribution lost least overall for the raid by going DG, especially in light of the kind of fight that require it.
To put it into an even larger perspective: in a 25 man setting (with 5 healers, 2-3 tanks) you're looking at a sacrifice of 0.3% of your raid DPS (being generous and assigning ret speccing it a 200DPS dock - which it would only be on very short fights - and assuming an average 4k DPS * 16 DPSers, 2k DPS * 3 tanks).
It's more situational than that though. If you need DG at the same time that you need full burn on a target to, e.g., move through a phase transition, than losing 2k-3k dps for those 12 seconds might not be an acceptable solution (which could also depend on mob health, raid damage taken, etc.). While the net rDPS over the entire course of an encounter isn't large, depending on the specific encounter mechanics, it could have a larger impact than you let on.
In short, it's too situational an ability to say that one spec should ALWAYS bring it over the other. Encounter mechanics and raid composition will determine who should bring it (assuming it's a required ability).
Ok, good point on the short term DPS loss and fight transition mechanics.
My original point still stands in that many retribution paladins in average raid groups lose zero DPS talents while grabbing DG (all you need is a boomkin and warrior with improved shouts or a holy paladin with improved might).
To address your concern: say you're a hard hitter, 5.5k DPS on a not so staic fight with a burn component. This burn also happens to occur the exact moment you also would like 30% less damage on your raid. At worst you're losing 1/2 of 1 DPSer or, for a 16 DPS raid, 1/32 = 3% for 12s. It's a fair amount. Would this allow any healers to start firing off some smite spam or are they playing catch up? Can they now spare a GCD to apply a DoT or 2? It's not that much DPS to end up even over 5 healers.
Ok, good point on the short term DPS loss and fight transition mechanics.
My original point still stands in that many retribution paladins in average raid groups lose zero DPS talents while grabbing DG (all you need is a boomkin and warrior with improved shouts or a holy paladin with improved might).
To address your concern: say you're a hard hitter, 5.5k DPS on a not so staic fight with a burn component. This burn also happens to occur the exact moment you also would like 30% less damage on your raid. At worst you're losing 1/2 of 1 DPSer or, for a 16 DPS raid, 1/32 = 3% for 12s. It's a fair amount. Would this allow any healers to start firing off some smite spam or are they playing catch up? Can they now spare a GCD to apply a DoT or 2? It's not that much DPS to end up even over 5 healers.
And if it's the healers providing that lost DPS, do you really need DG at all?
And in a raid with no boomkin, is the loss of 3% haste over the course of the entire encounter more of a detriment than the loss of some healing output (potentially a lot)? Again, just some of the myriad factors to weigh when asking a paladin to bring DG to a raid.
And that's really what my point was (or at least what I intended). It's a situational decision based on (in part) encounter mechanics, raid composition, and player skill. Best to simply list the drawbacks per build and let RLs decide.
Well that kinda settles it (assuming the ret tree goes live as that). 53 points for the entirety of PvE talents in the ret tree (not counting imp BoM) makes it pretty clear who'll be bringing DG to raids.
Glyph of Holy Light: Can no longer crit and has had its range updated.
* Auras will now persist through death.
* Blessing of Kings is now trainable at level 20. Removed from talent trees.
* New Talent Divinity:Tier 1 protection talent, increases healing done by and to you by 1/2/3/4/5%.
Well that kinda settles it (assuming the ret tree goes live as that). 53 points for the entirety of PvE talents in the ret tree (not counting imp BoM) makes it pretty clear who'll be bringing DG to raids.
I think he meant the "Up to a maximum of 150/300% of the paladin's Health."
Well that kinda settles it (assuming the ret tree goes live as that). 53 points for the entirety of PvE talents in the ret tree (not counting imp BoM) makes it pretty clear who'll be bringing DG to raids.
But also: DG is listed in a reworded manner which includes the following provision: up to a maximum of 150/300% of the paladins health (for rank 1/2 resp.)
So it's toned down quite a bit since 60k averaged over 25 players including a tank comes out to 2400 per head before it wears off.
My original point however was that it was easier to make up 3% lost DPS than it was to make up for 30% more healing overall.
Blessed Hands no longer increases Dispel resistance, but now reduces cool cooldown of Freedom/Sacrifice/Salvation by 10/20%. Huge PvP nerf there.
Next up: Ret Paladins get a ridiculous amount of free points to spend, which I believe will be most sensible to spend into the Prot tree for Toughness and Divine Guardian (as opposed to Aura Mastery and Blessed Hands). A bit early to say, but it *looks* like they'll be picking up DG as part of their normal spec since they have nothing good to spend points on otherwise.
The new Tier1 Prot talent Divinity (1/2/3/4/5% healing done and healing taken) is an interesting talent which still makes taking up Divine Guardian quite an interesting choice, especially for progression. The talent is vastly inferior to 5% crit from Conviction though (especially since Conviction opens up more crit from Sanctified Seals.
As far as Divine Guardian itself: with Ret pushing 25k and Holy 22-23k health raid buffed, the 300% of max health portion of the talent seems like the limiting factor to an obnoxiously powerful tool. Unless I'm horribly mistaken, the raid would need to take 250,000 damage (and redirect 75kto you) during the 12 seconds of Divine Shield for the effect to cap out. To clarify: you'd need to have the entire raid within 30 range of the Paladin using Divine Shield with DG on Sapphiron heroic for the effect to break before the end of Divine Shield.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
I think you're correct, the 300% cap is actually quite high considering it's applied on the incoming 30% redirected damage (I had it in my head the other way around). With all the free points DG should definately be picked up by ret now. Fun perk when going this way, you also can easily pick up both Sanctified Retribution and Improved Devo for a +3% damage/+6% healing to all!
Glyph of Holy Light: Can no longer crit and has had its range updated.
Yet another adjustment to our beloved glyph?
The nerf to the glyph is kinda dissapointing, but if they are reducing raid-wide dmg i dont see any problem with it.
It was nice tho to see 5x2k+ crits.
We still need to put 5 points into prot as it seems the new talent still makes a standard 51/5/15 specc the "best".
New Talent Divinity:Tier 1 protection talent, increases healing done by and to you by 1/2/3/4/5%
Seeing the priest changes I really doubt raid damage is getting reduced in any way. They're getting both a party targettable PoH and 40% more healing to CoH. Not to mention cheaper Holy Nova (who knows, it might be useful now) and an instant healing component to Renew on application if specced for it. That doesn't look like talents you'd hand out if you wanted more "stopping and thinking" kind of healing... all instants, most AoE spells.
It's not my intention to bitch, so please don't take this as such. But what do you guys think of the changes to holy talents?
It appears to me that none of the changes make any of the side talents appealing for pve holy paladins, while junk like Sacred Cleansing remain.
* Purifying Power (Tier 6) now reduces the cooldown of your Exorcism and Holy Wrath spells by 17/33%. (Previously increased the critical strike chance of those spells by 10/20%)
* Pure of Heart (Tier 5) now reduces Curse, Poison, and Disease effects by 15/30%. (Previously was 25/50% but did not include poisons)
* Blessed Hands has been moved from Tier 5 to Tier 4 and now reduces the mana cost of Hand of Freedom, Hand of Sacrifice and Hand of Salvation by 15/30% and cooldowns by 10/20%.
* Improved Concentration Aura's (Tier 4) reduced silence/interrupt effect now works while any aura is active.
Is anyone thinking they are going to change their current talent choices?
It's not my intention to bitch, so please don't take this as such. But what do you guys think of the changes to holy talents?
It appears to me that none of the changes make any of the side talents appealing for pve holy paladins, while junk like Sacred Cleansing remain.
* Purifying Power (Tier 6) now reduces the cooldown of your Exorcism and Holy Wrath spells by 17/33%. (Previously increased the critical strike chance of those spells by 10/20%)
* Pure of Heart (Tier 5) now reduces Curse, Poison, and Disease effects by 15/30%. (Previously was 25/50% but did not include poisons)
* Blessed Hands has been moved from Tier 5 to Tier 4 and now reduces the mana cost of Hand of Freedom, Hand of Sacrifice and Hand of Salvation by 15/30% and cooldowns by 10/20%.
* Improved Concentration Aura's (Tier 4) reduced silence/interrupt effect now works while any aura is active.
Is anyone thinking they are going to change their current talent choices?
Blessed Hands is something to consider at least. If unholy aura or another imp bow is in the raid, there are two spare points anyway. reduced cd on Hands is highly situational of course, but perhaps there are threat sensitive bosses in ulduar or some snaring effects.
I may move the extra point from Imp Concentration Aura around to Blessed Hands, but nothing seems worth breaking the typical Holy/Ret raid spec. Nor would losing 4% crit to gain 5% healing done.
02/23/09, 5:45 PM
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