sno

Haven't been able to test Glyph of Holy Shock yet but I have tested Glyph of Divinity some and it seems to give too much mana back.
* When you use it on someone else (doesn't matter if the target has mana or not) it gives you 7800 mana back
* When you use LoH on your self you get 7800 + 3900 mana back

So it seems that it first gives double the normal amount of mana (1950) to the target then double that value again for your self.
Guess this will get fixed so it will give consistent 3.9k mana back if used on someone else and 3.9+3.9 if you use it on your self.

 

Elistan

I've studied meters quite a bit and to be honest a healer that cares where their place is on a meter is not a good one. Making sure the tanks or the people you are assigned to heal don't die is the sign of a good healer. Because you can make it so the meters are fooled.

Here is how you do this. I learned this when I studied the meters and seen a ret pally high in healing. The reason is that our ret pally judges Light. All the healing from that get counted towards him. So when I want to fool the meters I start to judge light. A good healer does his job he doesn't try to top meters.

 

• frmorrison

I don't believe the new glyphs have been added on the PTR yet, I tried to discover them but got nothing learned.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Tzeni

This is the classic "numbers don't mean anything because X can be interpreted as this, which is obviously not true". Well, don't use JoL heals then-- I don't!

That being said, I do think heal meters can be limited use for healers, at least when considering how useful they are for DPS. The place they do work is when you are judging people's ability to raid heal and when you're trying to judge how many healers you need for a fight. If most of your healers are overhealing and not running out of mana, then you know you can probably get away with fewer healers and more DPS.

Also, if you have one holy priest who is topping the heal meters on a fight but another with the same job description (probably raid healing) is barely getting by, well now you know who the better healer is.

 

Saladin

I would offer my agreement only with the caveat that you have to be very careful just what kind of healing you're looking at--Effective healing, total healing, or overhealing.

Last night we were doing an alt naxx run with two holy paladins. Our Healing Lead (a priest by main) was on his rogue reviewing Recount, and saw that one of our paladins was falling behind the other on effective healing. The one on top was spamming FoL, while the one on bottom was spamming HL. Said healing lead's response was to tell the lesser paladin "You're using too much Holy Light."

Now, we all know that FoL can't touch the HPS of Holy Light. The only place FoL beats HL is in HPM. However, according to the meters, FoL would be believed to output more healing than HL. The catch is, that's only considering effective healing. Since FoL was hitting the targets first, it was reducing the amount of healing that HL could effectively pull off.

Of course, if another heal hits your target before you can get to it, then you could blow Lay on Hands ("hands" down our biggest healing spell) and it would still show as less healing than Flash of Light, which is not true.

It's not just JoL and tricks that throw off meters. Healing is a game wherein whoyou heal is just as important as how you heal and when you heal them. Of those three, DPS only has to worry about the how.

Thus, I don't discount meters completely. But honestly, the only accurate information you can glean from them is the maximum possible HPS of a given healer, which you can use to assign healers for future encounters.

 

ElginRoko

Excellent point, well made. It's interesting to note that if either player had changed their healing style, the FoL user to HL, or the HL user to FoL, then they'd probably have been healing more effectively. HL as you say, provides massive HPS, but if someone else is using small fast heals on the same target(s), there's a tendency for it to get half-sniped and lose most of it's effectiveness to overheal. FoL carries a lower penalty in both time and mana if it gets sniped, but can also take twice as long to get the same amount of healing done.

The only thing your HLer was doing wrong was not discussing with your FoLer how they could avoid getting in each other's way when healing, and the FoLer did that too. This shows up as the HLer being lower on the meters though, which is one of the main reasons meters are a rubbish way to measure healing.

For insurance reasons. Yes. That, and for freedom.

 

gallamann

I too can play this game...

• Anub-Rekhan: Did this 40 man w/o 6 sec HS, any haste, SS or speed enchants. This isn't hard to pace and if the tank is doing it right, you won't need to heal him. He does it wrong, bubble and plow some serious heals into him.
  
• Maexxna: Guess it is kind of hard to assign two ranged DPS to handle that. Seriously, your healers should never need to run and heal someone wall-webbed.
  
• Heigan: Another case of you compensating for raiders who can't manage to do a simple dance (aka their job). Let them die, maybe they will learn how to dance then.
  
• 4H: Huh, I do that with a high HP character and beacon, have yet to ever lose either of us. No PoJ, no speed enchants.
  
• Grobbulus: Do you bring just 4 healers and are all 4 getting debuff at same time? I have never seen it in 25, even 10 man with 2 healers, there is enough time for the first healer to get back before second has left range.
  
• Gluth: Here is the one encounter where a speed bump is nice, but only if you are kiting the zombies. Even then it isn't necessary, prudent use of slows from hunters, mages, shaman and Holy Wrath will keep them off you.
  
• Thaddius: Never seen where raid isn't topped just before the switch. I ensure SS on tank and run if necessary. I doubt you even gain .05 seconds over me running, only need to cover about 12 yards.
  
• Sapphiron: Air phase is more like two phases, first part is raid collapsing towards each other while maintaining 10 yards, second is moving behind a Iceblock (or sometimes being the iceblock). Holy light AoE is useless in first part as people need to be 10 yards and only damage is the aura 1200, so use HS, SS, FoL. Holy Light shines once you are hugging the ice and 5+ have joined you. However its useless if your the only guy hugging that cube.
  
• Malygos: Hasn't been an issue for me w/o speed enchants or PoJ. Move, HS en route, and if IoL procs, FoL.
  
• Sarth 3D: Those walls, they move slightly diagonally. You can run diagonally away from them to the safe zone and give yourself plenty of leg time. Personally I face towards the wall that I need to worry about, as soon as I see it, moving. Don't see it then I don't move till it passes.

PoJ, versus crit or more heal, is all a preference thing. What I would love to see more of from the folks that regularly contribute to this thread is pointing out that their opinion is just that, an opinion of their preference. What many of you seem to forget is people who don't play Holy paladins read this thread and take your statements as fact. They then go back to their guilds and want to dictate play style based upon opinions they have taken as fact from Elist Jerks forums.

I don't know about the rest of you but I sure have better things to do in game then explain to someone why I choose to play that way when "everyone at jerks say its best to do it this way".

 

galzohar

The only way to somewhat compare 2% crit to 15% movement speed, is calculate (with rawr) the efficiency benefit of 2% crit, then calculate based on the encounter how much time you spend moving and how much 15% (or 7% if you would otherwise enchant speed on boots) movement speed would reduce that time (or how much extra time spent healing you can gain from it, and whether or not that would actually happen during critical times of the encounter), and decided based on which benefit you think will let you do your job better.

2% crit might not be something to shrug off, but 15% movement speed definitely isn't either. Being specced withtout PoJ for the first time this week, you definitely feel the difference immediately (then again I also immediately feel the difference on my mage with and without 8% speed on boots). While in the end the best choice is fight-specific, in my opinion 15% movement speed is the superior choice and will always spec into it in the future (perhaps unless they decide to not remove raid wide 15% movement speed buff after all).

Regarding 1% healing VS 1% crit, use rawr to see the efficiency benefit of 1% crit, and then decide if that's actually better than 1% more efficiency and reliable burst. Since 1% crit is nowhere near the value of 2% efficiency, I'd say the 1% extra efficiency and reliable burst will give a better overall benefit for most/all fights (for the same reason I glyph SoL rather than SoW - 5% burst and efficiency over ~7.5% efficiency (or whatever that was, more accurate value for my gear was posted somewhere earlier in this thread)).

 

Justizia

As the only officer in my guild who is a healer, I use recount to track overall healing done for a raid. We have a special private chat channel that we use to post damage and healing meters after each boss fight, and for those I will post the top 5-6 healers for that boss fight, but what I care about more is how our healers are contributing to the raid overall. Some people only care what heals on boss fights look like, but I think that discounts the contributions made by the healers who keep the raid up when someone decides to pull extra mobs (and seriously, no one wants to wipe on trash...).

In addition, different boss fights have different mechanics, and depending on that (and which healers are at a particular raid), who is doing the most/least healing on a particular boss can vary. For example, if we split our Naxx run into 2 days of raiding, and decide to do the DK and Construct quarters on the same day, I will top the healing meters, hands down. But then when we go do Spider and Plague quarters, chances are I will end up much lower on the meters for overall healing. Depending on which day someone went, they might think I was an incredible healer or a horrible healer. To that extent, the meters are a flawed way to assess healing skill. But when tracking overall healing done, the numbers even out much more. Typically, I see most of our healers doing about 15-16% of the overall healing done. So if I see someone who stays consistently closer to 20% or to 10%, I get a sense that someone is doing an exceptional job healing, or someone is seriously underperforming relative to our other healers. This is useful information to know when we are trying to decide which healers to take for progression.

 

Saladin

There are several agreed "gray areas" wherein contributors have agreed to disagree. These are things like Intellect stacking, HL vs. FoL spam, and now obviously PoJ.

I'd like to reiterate that I have never recommended taking PoJ over a single crit talent--my entire point is that there are many other less useful talents that you could give up instead. It doesn't have to be PoJ vs. 2% crit. It should more sanely be PoJ vs. 2% healing vs. 20% reduced silences vs. 20% reduced Hand cooldowns. Crit is too important a non-cappable stat for a holy paladin to sacrifice short of a major utility talent (such as DG), which PoJ is not.

However, in all of your cases that you presented, you've made the same argument that has bee used in every other stubborn debate in this thread, from Intellect to Holy Light: I can get by without this.

It has already been agreed that Naxx is NOT the hardest content available and just because you can get by under certain circumstances does not mean that's the best way to do it and will get you by in the future. In all of the scenarios you mentioned, each one was just "enough," and there's no arguing with the fact that a PoJ paladin could have done it better, faster, stronger.

We all know that Naxx can be healed without using a single spell except Flash of Light. This does not mean we should take every other spell off our bars to become the best healer.

At the end of the day, PoJ is a talent analogous to the range-increasing talents that every ranged DPS loves to pick up. That is, you can survive without it, but with it you can survive better, easier, and do more. In any case, it's not my duty to convert anyone, and if you genuinely feel you're achieving your top potential as a healer without it, more power to you.

As a final note, it should not be anyone's responsibility to have to tack on an obligatory "in my opinion" at the end of every post. That should go without saying. If readers are taking EJ words as scripture back unto their raids from Mount Sinai, that's sign of enough ignorance that nothing we really say or preface could prevent it. As the saying goes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. People should be reading and understanding these discussions for themselves, not preaching them as sermons to their raids. That's what the Theorycrafting Think Tank is for.

 

• frmorrison

I have seen videos of the first three Ulduar bosses (Hodir, Iron Council, and Thorim), and guess what each of those encounters involve a lot of running from fire (especially Hodir, you are running over 10% of the time).

I feel PoJ is so useful (since we have limited healing on the run) since there is not other way to get it and the great thing about 3.1 is every spec of Paladin can pick it up without losing much.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Evvi

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Shamans and Priests not have any speed increasing abilities? I think the idea that PoJ as a requirement is a little ridiculous since Blizz definitely wouldn't put in an encounter that involved healers of multiple classes not being able to stop and heal... I would much rather take the extra crit which will translate to more HS crits and, as such, more instant cast FoL than 15% increased movement speed.

 

Saladin

Allow me to reiterate.

Paladins are the least mobile healers in the game.

We do not have Earth Shield (and Sacred Shield still does not heal).

We do not have Riptide.

We do not have Earthliving Procs.

We do not have Power Word Shield.

We do not have Prayer of Mending.

We do not have Renew.

We do not have Circle of Healing.

We do not have Guardian Spirit.

We don't even have Loly Nova.

Simply put, we are not shamans or priests. We're paladins. We have been the least mobile healer, are the least mobile healer, and will likely continue to be the least mobile healer. That is why PoJ is such a vital talent for us.

And again I stress that you should not make decisions on talents based on what you can get by with. You should be choosing the talents that allow you to do your job to the best of your abilities.

Think of it this way--Frost Resist on Saphiron. Obviously, you don't need it. There's an achievement for not using it. However, if you have frost resist, does it not make the fight easier?

That's the situation Holy Paladins are in with Pursuit of Justice. It's not as required as Holy Shock, but it's certainly not as expendable as Improved Concentration Aura.

 

SirSilk

Well said Saladin.

Thank you for interjecting a little common sense into the thread.

Sadly it was necessary.

 

ManaTF

Will Boar's speed be back soon? Despite it's maybe not as efficient as PoJ, at least, it doesn't cost two talent points.

 

• Mex

I'm assuming you mean PoJ, not JoL. And it already exists, it's called Tuskarr's Vitality (or maybe it's Tuskkar?). It's a viable alternative if you absolutely _cannot_ spare those last 2 talent points, but otherwise imo it's better to stick with PoJ.

 

Wraithguard

When I read this, I literally facepalmed. Not due to Saladin's comment, but my own foolishness. I've been so obsessed about being against PoJ that I didn't realize that they do not go against each other. Therefore I would like to apologize for being a stubborn fool and will make sure to have my buttocks out of the water before I go after ppl again :P

However, I will still hold on to the fact that atm - PoJ isn't necessary at all for raiding - just the least useless 2 points as there are no long lasting curses or fears in the game atm. Also cleanses are cheap still and the cooldown reduction on hand spells have yet to be implemented which are the only obvious places I could see the two points go instead.

So here it is. A rare and honest apology.

 

Eldadelin

I agree with you here.

To Evvi

However, it's only two talent point's, and id take the extra crit/hit from http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=60623 [icewalker] and have the two point's there.

Right now my spec is using DG to ease out our 3D attempts, and I'm really feeling the loss of PoJ. Going to re-enchant later tonight till patch hit's.

PTR is already proving that PoJ is an amazing tool for paladins.

Question: Anyone still have point's in prot for DG and tested it out on the uld bosses?

 

Elistan

Ok, The Saph fight is easy for the paladin that uses his head. Hodir will be the same, here is what I would do on Hodir to make PoJ less needed. Sure you have to move but I can make it so you don't have to move as much. The fact it that people will be taking damage that fight, moving only resets it so it doesn't hit for more. As a Paladin how fast we move has nothing to do with how much we heal for. We still need to stand in one place and for Hodir here is how you do it. From what I have seen of his damaging abilities Paladins are about the only healer with the HPS to keep the take up, but and I will say this again we have to stand still. If you assign healing right you can do this and the only time you will have to move is when the things from the ceiling fall.

When I first did Sapp i was put on the tank but knowing I would have to move mean that while I was moving the tank could possibly die so what I would do is Beacon and SS myself. What that enable me to do is pretty much stand still for that whole fight and move only when I had to meaning Deep Breath. I could even stand in Blizzard and always had full health. The Hodir fight is another fight I intend to use this method of healing. Allow me the chance to stand in one place for long periods of time will give me an edge and allow me to heal the tank as well. There are factor i don't know yet because I haven't done the fight but I believe doing this will make this fight easy and make PoJ not as needed.

I mean if you can get the talent and not lose much then go ahead and take it. I myself have always gone down the prot tree for DG so I go without the extra speed and I do just fine healing. Now my spec might change with 3.1 considering our ret pally will be able to spec into it. But my GM feels that 30% raid damage reduction is better than the extra crit in the ret tree. It so happens I agree. The only case where I might change is if I'm finding I'm having mana issues and then I would spec for the extra crit.

But again PoJ is a optional talent you can get along without. If you can get it can or not out anything but having it or not having it.

 

galzohar

Why do you keep comparing PoJ to the useless holy talents? There's no real reason now nor after the patch (assuming current changes stick) to go with more than 51 in holy, and there's obviously no reason to go with less. That leaves 20 points for prot/ret, which means taking PoJ will result in 2% less crit (or optionally 2% less healing instead after the patch). There's absolutely nothing else you can drop for it, as the lower tier ret talents are required to reach conviction/PoJ and you're not going to go more than 5 in prot no matter what (unless you go DG in which case neither PoJ nor crit is an option anyway).

 

Wraithguard

Purely speculative as none of the talents are certain yet, but I think the time reduction on Hand of Salvation seems like a pretty safe bet.

 

Wraithguard

Hi - seems like the PoJ discussion is done - sooo, found something else to kick out there and ask:

I was browsing some paladin blogs yesterday and came across one called Blessing of Kings. Although his idea was for rets, I liked it alot. A reader had asked him about the value of strength compared to other stats and he came up with the following:

Now this got me thinking - could you build a similar system for holy (remember that no matter what ppl come up with, it will always be an estimate and a question of playstyle). I remembered that maxdps had a system like the one from BoK. That looks like this:

I'm not too happy about the high value on mp5 and the low value on crit, and in general I would like to know if you have a better stat comparison than the one from maxdps?

I made the following comparison on [The Turning Tide] and [Torch of Holy Fire]

The Turning Tide
50 int (12,55)
520 spellpower (119,08)
48 haste (5,52)
37 crit (3,96)
sum: 141,11

Torch of Holy Fire
49 int (12,3)
520 spellpower (119,08)
40 haste (4,6)
15 mp5 (11,89)
sum: 147,87

In my opinion TTT is a better holy paladin weapon than ToHF, but the values from maxdps indicates a small lead on the mace.

 

galzohar

The values you show maxdps is using are actually pretty close to what I use myself (which I got combining rawr results for my own gear with the burst value of stats), except mp5 seems slightly high. Since I don't know how they derived those values, I can't tell you why they value it higher than me. What I can tell you is that with my values TTT is only a hair better than torch, and that was before taking into account the DP nerf (which would give correct results if you'd still use it on every cooldown, however this may or may not be possible depending on the fight). Bottom line is that you should probably check rawr yourself with your gear, and not forget to decide how much you actually value burst VS efficiency. Relying on point systems other people make up for you without even looking at your gear and without you even knowing what they did to get those values is usually bad practice unless you only care about having gear that's "more or less optimal if they did it properly" rather than "simply optimal".

Regarding salvation, considering current TPS vs DPS, I'm not sure reducing its cooldown will be too useful, although if TPS vs DPS scaling changes it might be something worth picking in the future.

 

InternetFett

The stat weighting tool on WoWHead gives:

+10 spellpower: 2.90
+10 crit: 1.90
+10 haste: 5.27
+10 int: 1.53
+4mp5: 1.85

vs

This rates haste extremely high and int a little low. I'm wondering if these weights were created based on TBC calculations. The numbers for mp5 and crit seem much closer to what they should be though. Those numbers rate ToHF at ~149 and TTT at ~153 (with the two weights likely to be out of date nearly equivalent between the two).

 

Rehwyn

If you use Rawr, you can get values that function like you want using the Relative Stat Values comparison. These values will of course be different based on how you have Rawr set up to evaluate gear but also are 'customized' to you current gear.

For me, it comes up with
+1 mp5 = 2.63
+1 int = 2.35
+1 crit = 1.65
+1 spellpower = 1.63
+1 haste = 1.28

MP5 may seem overvalued here, but remember that 1 MP5 costs more on an item per point than any of the others.

Using these values for TTT and ToHF, I get:

The Turning Tide
50 int (117.5)
520 spellpower (847.6)
48 haste (61.44)
37 crit (61.05)
sum: 1087.59

Torch of Holy Fire
49 int (115.15)
520 spellpower (847.6)
40 haste (51.2)
15 mp5 (39.45)
sum: 1053.4

This seems to go along better with the general opinion of TTT > ToHF. Still, in both cases it's clear that most of the gain in either of these items over others is from the massive spellpower.

Personally, I take these values and plug them into the Pawn addon for quick in-game comparison of items.