I thought most of the time he was talking about normal auras, with some mentions to the imp versions, since at points he definitely was talking about their normal versions. In the future if you are ever talking about an imp aura please explicitly say Imp Conc (or Devo/Ret) when you mention it. This will help avoid a lot of confusion. But yes, lets please move on now.

A few things to note on Holy Paladins builds for 25-man raiding:

1. You'll most likely have 2 Holy Paladins, so only 1 needs to get Improved BoW. That leaves the 2nd paladin with 2 free talent points that have be spent before moving past Tier 5 and then past Tier 7.

2. If raiding with an Unholy Death-Knight, they'll have Unholy Aura, saving you 2 points in from the ret tree in your standard 51/0/20 build.

3. Improved Devotion Aura doesn't stack with Tree of Life, so assuming you have a resto druid in the raid, improved devo doesn't grant any bonus other than a little more armor. Anyway, it's a very easy and natural talent for prot paladins to pick up if you bring one along. It's definately not worth picking up if you are going the holy route... way too much wasted talent in the prot tree to get it when you could just bring a resto druid.

So, assuming those two points, it'd be naturaly for the 2nd paladin to go for a 53/0/18 build and pick up aura master with improved concentration aura. I think this build for the 2nd paladin would work well for the group:
Holy 53/0/18

The first paladin (assuming you have an unholy DK, which we'll be bringing) would use a 51/0/18 build with 2 points left over to put wherever suites them best for the content. Unyielding Faith, Purifying Power, or Improved Judgements would all be decent places to put them.

Updated my gear spreadsheet.

Though I understand this is the PVE thread, it seems as if everyone is at least going to want the PVP libram due to the pathetic libram choices available in Wrath, particularly right at 80 the blue pvp one should be easy to acquire. With that in mind, does anyone understand how the PVP pricing works in wrath? It looks like there are three tiers of PVP gear at release, the 'deadly' arena/honor set (with required ratings on most of the gear), the 'hateful' set that seems to be purchasable with honor OR raid badges (emblems of valor), and the blue 'savage' set which seems to be purchasable with a mix of honor and arena points, OR heroic badges. Then to further complicate things, it looks like there is maybe a vendor in wintergrasp that sells some of the honor pieces at a reduced price? And it also looks like maybe some items that have a ratings requirement may actually have other versions in the game with the same name with no ratings requirement?

For the leftover points, I'd seriously consider pursuit of justice. Granted it's fight-dependent, but you can't really argue much against movement speed increases. Even if you only count it as 7% (compared to 8% boot enchant, unless they added a new one I didn't see yet), it's still pretty great.

A 2nd point in imp LoH may also be worth 1% less crit, but again it's fight-dependent.

[Libram of Renewal] is the one I am going for first, it is a huge 9% reduction in HL cost. I am not sure where it is from though, I saw an unsubstantiated report it is from Badges. I will probably get a Savage libram first until I can get a Renewal.

That one will be good to get, for sure, but I think only on specific fights unless I greatly underestimate how the healing is going to work in T7. It's [Emblem of Heroism] x15. The 25 man raid libram is pathetic: [Libram of Tolerance]

Well remember even with lower gear levels we will be able to heavily use HL at the start of raid content. Since we essentially gained 13% crit since 2.x, 8% from Ret talents and 5% from Moonkin Aura. When you have 40% HL crit, Divine Plea, GSoW and [Libram of Renewal] you will be able to heavily work HL into your cast cycle. With some blue and some Naxx gear you should be able to maintain a 1:1 FoL to HL cast time rotation during a 6 min fight. With all of these buffs I was getting a very close HPM between FoL and HL, ~19 hpm for FoL and ~15hpm for HL. Once you get 4pc T7 (-5% HL Cost) it will be even closer.

I have it modeled in Rawr which is now almost totally updated for 80 and the new version is going to come out tomorrow, I'll post more on that when it does.

Can't wait for an updated Rawr. Is it going to include all the blues from reg/heroic dungeons? I'm interested to see how early I'll start replacing items. Anyway, with the Glyph of Holy Light changes, I'm finding myself using Holy Light a lot more. The AoE effect is healing a lot more and I don't have to worry about overhealing. I have a feeling that I'll keep it in my rotation more than I originally thought so the Libram reducing the mana cost seems useful to me.

On an entirely seperate note: what do you all think about the heavy trend towards haste in holy paladin itemization. I've been browsing some of the high level dungeon, naxx-10, and naxx-20 drops and the theme really seems to be haste. Sure, I like haste and all, but not on every piece of gear when it's sacrificing crit or MP5. Fully raid buffed we sit at 23% haste which brings the GCD down to 1.22 sec. Pretty nice for base haste if you ask me.

The counter argument in favor of haste, though, is if we see an increase in the use of Holy Light. With the way Glyph of Holy Light works coupled with mana reduction from the libram it might get used a lot more. In that case, the haste stacking does help.

There is a button in the latest version that will load all known WotLK items from Wowhead.

Modeling of the Glyph of Holy Light isn't done currently, but I am going to try to get it done tonight. Probably just going to model it by having an option of the average number of procs per Holy Light

Just re-downloaded the current version and can't find the button (version 2.0.3 from Rawr - Home). Can you help me out on where to look to load all WotLK items from wowhead?

I have the same version (newest stable release) and there is no wowhead button. Possibly a beta release has it.

However, there is a load from Armory button, but it may be a week or so before Armory gets the new instance and quest items.

thanks. anyway this is getting a bit off-topic. i'm going to delete out my posts tomorrow at release.

You talked about healing rotation and 1:1 Fol / HL ratio. Is there no space for Holy Shocks? How do you see this spell now? I´m just curious since now in the current Sunwell im using it a lot more compared to before 3.0 patch.

I was just talking about just the ration between FoL and HL, that doesn't mean you don't cast Holy Shock.

Holy Shock is much worse HPM then Holy Light, and not that much more HPS then Flash of Light. So you should only use it when you need the benefits of an instant cast heal. When you do though, it is a very nice spell.

My main use of Holy Shock is with Beacon of Light on the main tank or an off-tank. When I'm assigned to healing a tank it's usually pretty risky to break off of them to heal another raid member. Even when the tank has Beacon on them, there's a good chance that the raid member will get healed up before you finish your cast. That means a wasted heal in the raid and a missed heal on the MT. Breaking off to cast Holy Shock on a raid member almost guarantees that the heal will be effective on the raid member, and also on the MT. On HS crits, i'll also try to cast my instant FoL on a raid member since it'll usually also equal a FoL on the MT through beacon.

I don't think the situation you describing is really a good use of Holy Shock. Since essentially you are just "sniping" heals from other healers to improve your own standing on the meters. If you know they are going to get healed anyway in less then 1.2 seconds, just stay on the tank.

A better use in that situation is to put BoL on someone else who will be taking a lot of damage (like a different tank) and heal your tank normally. Holy Shock is better saved for when someone could die before a cast time heal gets off, or when you have to move. It is a waste of mana otherwise, since it is 1/2 the hpm of FoL and 6/10 the hpm of HL.

The new version of Rawr (2.1) for WotLK and level 80 is coming out tonight at 7est (posting this now since I won't be around when it does get released). For those who don't know, Rawr is a theorycrafting program where you load in your gear/buffs and it ranks it compared to other items. You can learn more and download the latest at Codeplex - Rawr.


Example of a level 80 paladin with full Blues (except for Libram) and full raid buffs.

The Healadin module is mostly updated and accurate for level 80, and will display all the stats about your spells. Let me explain how it works. First it calculates how much time/mana is used on BoL, SS, JotP, and HS based on the parameters you give it. Then with the remaining mana & fight time it calculates the maximum amount of Holy Lights you can do while still having enough mana to always be casting at least Flash of Light. So any extra mana you gain means you can cast more Holy Lights over Flash of Light. It ranks each gear setup based on the total amount healed.

New Features

• Support for JotP, it will display how much effective haste (after using GCDs to keep it up) it gives you.
• Support for BoL, you enter in uptime and effectiveness of the buff (what percent of your heals will proc BoL).
• Support for SS, for now just assumes you are keeping 100% uptime on one target. The next version will have more options for number of targets and uptime.
• Support for HS, you set the effective cooldown of HS by a percent. So if you enter a 20% it means it will cast it ever 30 seconds (6 / 0.2).
• Support for almost all Glyphs.
• Mana Pool & Mana Usage breakdown graphs. Graphs that will show your mana pool broken up by source, and how much is used on each spell.
• Level 80 support. Updated all consumables, buffs, debuffs and enchants for their level 80 versions.
• Ability to load all known WotLK items from Wowhead.

Known Issues

• When imported from Wowhead Tier 7 items will not know they are part of a set. To fix this edit each item and under set name add "Redemption Regalia".

To Do List

• Add support for Glyph of Flash of Light.
• Option to model keeping 100% Judgement debuff uptime.
• Better modeling for IoL/LG.
• Support proc effects for all relevant level 80 trinkets.
• Give some measurement for burst healing capability.

This thread got unlocked after the forum structure is change. I will keep the main post updated with current theorycraft for an easy place for people to read up on it. So try to keep the discussion here limited to stuff about this thread, and discuss other things in new threads.

Primary stat now in WotLK at lvl 80 for pve? I see the plate gear of reputation with a mix of crit and haste, almost no mp5 in them. What stat are you going to start stacking now? (Crit>Int or Int>Crit)>Spower>Haste>mp5? Since we have divine plea for mana regen and judgement of the pure for haste, dont know what to do with those stats.

The early levellers in our guild ventured into Naxx-10, and I played around some with Sacred Shield. In truth I'm not actually aware of it doing anything. I don't seem to gain a +Crit aura when the shielded person takes damage, the amount absorbed is buried away in the depths of the combat log, and I didn't perceive any difference at all in terms of healing needed whether it was up or not. Is there something I'm missing here, because it really does seem like a dud. On the plus side, JoL, HS and IoL'd FoL make for ridiculously easy Loatheb.

The crit part of sacred shield will rarely be up, because it's linked to the minimal absorbtion offered by each shield. It negates more damage per mana than any of our heals could restore so it's worth keeping up but you're right that it isn't a noticeable spell just a cooldown to keep up. You'll also see better returns as you gear up since a large component is proportional to your spellpower.

Another macro question.

I usually target the tank, focus the boss, and mouseover heal everyone else.

I'd like to set up a macro that allows me to Judgement of Wisdom my focus (the boss) without switching my target.

Currently the best I have is this:
But that macro switches my target to the boss before switching it back (with /targetlastfriend).

Example:
I have Tank targetted. I have Boss focused.
I hit my macro.
I judge the boss -- WoW now switches my target to the Boss. <-- I don't want it to target switch.
/targetlastfriend kicks in -- WoW now switches my target back to the Tank.

Curiously this macro does not exhibit this target switching:
Is there something special/broken with Judgements that cause them to target switch when cast? I understand it turns on autoattack, but when I'm 30+ yards away from a boss, I can't autoattack.

Ideally I'd like something like this, for an all-in-one Judgement macro independent of what my target and focus actually are, but I figured I'd ask the simpler question of how to prevent target switching first.
But that macro still exhibits the undesirable target switching on judgement behavior.