I get it based on the fact that ignites (mages) work the exact same way and have been since vanilla. Warriors do the same thing with their deep wounds but even more aggressively from what I understand with my talks to DPS warriors I know. I haven't done any physical testing with it but based on precedent I'm confident enough to say that this is how it is intended to work.
It is such a small amount healed relatively, and how easy it is for it to fall off (one non crit) that even if rolled that way it wouldn't be that useful or practical.
Not useful or practical to the point where we can suddenly stop HLing or something of the sort, but when we already have a relatively free glyph slot it's worth looking at.
I get it based on the fact that ignites (mages) work the exact same way and have been since vanilla.
No. rolling ignites have been fixed. Apart from latency / debuff lag issues, ignite ticks for exactly how much it is supposed to. "Rolling wounds" however works that way. So there is no clear evidence of how the HS hot is going to work.
Even if it was rolling: With lucky crits (with 70% crit it would be about a 25% chance to stack it 4 times) the maximum difference is only about 250 hps. I doubt it is feasible to spend 20% of your time using a spell with inferior hps to have the chance to get 250 more hps.
we already have a relatively free glyph slot it's worth looking at.
I don't know, with fights lasting from 5 minutes or longer, Divinity may become a requirement for its mana gain (2x mana gain with glyph).
Anyway, a HoT rolling build for a Paladin is a poor idea.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
at worst --> crit provides mana return in the case of overheals while divinity does not
at best --> if they don't overheal, the difference in extra throughput at equal point investment in Sanctity only results in 50% lower increase in throughput. Losing 1.5% in throughput to gain a guaranteed 1.8% more mana return is something I doubt anyone wouldn't consider a fair trade.
Don't forget that mana return allows more healing. Because of this, your best case throughput from splitting the talents is higher than the bonus from 5/5 Divinity. To provide numbers: 3% crit only costs 3 points to Divinity's 5, so you can take 3% crit and 2% bonus healing. This is worth (102% * 101.5% * 101.8%) = an average 105.4% bonus healing by the time you go OOM.
The only certain benefit Divinity provides is consistency. This may still be enough, but you cannot write off Sanctity.
Don't forget that mana return allows more healing. Because of this, your best case throughput from splitting the talents is higher than the bonus from 5/5 Divinity. To provide numbers: 3% crit only costs 3 points to Divinity's 5, so you can take 3% crit and 2% bonus healing. This is worth (102% * 101.5% * 101.8%) = an average 105.4% bonus healing by the time you go OOM.
The only certain benefit Divinity provides is consistency. This may still be enough, but you cannot write off Sanctity.
1.8% is the mana return, you can't just turn around and say that is a straight 1:1 bonus to healing.
Crit doesn't help anything for mana regen in the Genreal Vezax fight since you don't get mana back from Illumination.
Int doesnt help anything for regen in that fight either so havning divinity, stacking spellpower and using more FoL is probably better there.
As for an earlier discussion about best in slot trinkets, Spark of Hope seems like a really nice trinket for that fight.
General Vezax is realy easy in terms of mana management. When we did his hard mode we just had 6 Healers on the Tank. Raid doesnt need any healing until the Void spawns. Two of those six were Paladins me and another. We split our roles, one just reactive shock on first hit on tank and proactive fol or reactive with instant on next hit the other did SS and reactive on second/third etc. Pretty simple.
A holy doesnt judge, beacon is not needed and you only cast around 6 HLs @ voidspawn. Blessed life for voidspawn, aura mastery for more shadow dmg absorb on void, blessed hands because of HoS.
Much Int helps alot. Even with 3% overhealing you can be unlucky and get mana issues at around 20% of the fight (but doesnt matter you can zerg him at that time). Had 33k mana buffed when we fought him.
Why did you choose to put 2 points in IoL instead of JotP? It's a pretty useless talent now, especially if you're not using HL. Having a front-loaded FoL doesn't gain you any HPS.
I've been using glyph of Holy Shock on the PTR. It's extremely useful on trash, plus I use Holy Shock on cooldown for Kologarn and Hodir. Since Ulduar makes Flash of Light obsolete (except on General Vsomething as I understand), there's no reason to use Flash of Light/Seal of Light glyphs. To me at least, it comes down to having a bit more mana every 11 minutes (less if you don't spec Imp LoH) or having HS on a 5s cooldown; so it's really no choice at all.
And IoL is still useful for saving mana on Holy Lights and healing on the move, 2 things that are very useful in Ulduar. Although it's probably the first 2 talent points you want to drop. It isn't terrible, it just isn't amazing anymore.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
Not to mention now with the 20 points in prot it becomes a semi good idea to grab some extra stam to make use of a raid wall since now its a based percentage of your health.
And so is HoS now.
It comes to, why bring a Paladin when you can bring a Disc priest who can pretty much do the same thing?
The awnser right now is "Hey look I have this awesome raid wide 30% damage reduction I'm good for using on a 3D sarth run, I'm good for utilizing a survival situation in Immortal run, or even I'm good for using when starting Phase 2 of a 6 minute maly to help remain in a spark for as long as possible.
Hello I'm a paladin enjoy your kings.
Need a salv? I got your back.
Lets stack Mana spring and Blessing of Wisdom!
Sacred Shield was an awesome skill that we got and they gave us the chance to make it even better, if prot had a talent to increase the ability of Beacon in some positive way would you not get it? It's almost the same idea in the end.
We have diffrent tools in 3.1 than some other classes really it comes down to utilizing them, makeing the best of them and getting your raid leader to go "Hey get so-and-so they're a great asset." Yea it brings back bring the class not the player to an extent but that never really left the game.
And when it comes down to raid healing, we have the advantage. Think what your melee is doing, they're all bunched up in one area, chances are you have more than 5 melee. But the beacon on a tank, heal the lowest melee person with HL while glyphed for HL as well, boom you've just now healed 7 people at maximum. Or you can go the other way and spam quick FoL while using HS every cooldown hoping for the crit heal, or simply just to get a nice bigger heal off than FL can provide. FoL worked in vanilla and BC, and it still can work.
But ultimatly what I'm trying to get at here is this is a good build to help you utilize t8, and secure yourself a raidspot because you can bring a lot of tools to a raid, hard mode is going to be hard friends, you'll need all the mechanics you can get.
Never gear for stam. Ever. Every point of stam you get translates into roughly 15 damage redirected from the raid every 2 minutes. So 8 stam means that the raid takes 1 less damage per second, on average. You would therefore need roughly 200 stamina (8 gems), in order to reduce the DTPS by 1 for each and every member of the raid. It's not even close to feasible. The only time you'd ever want to actively use high stam gear is when you're using HoS naked (without bubble) and without it, the damage transferred will one-shot you. In this case, the best thing to do is probably swap in some PvP gear, or a single high stam trinket.
And why bring Disc Priests when Paladins already do the same thing? This is nothing more than MT healing being broadened a bit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Using the existence of Disc Priests and their tank-healing capacity to try and justify a raid healing / utility spec is not going to work. Shamans have totems, druids have innervate / bres, priests have guardian spirit / fort, etc etc. Every class has utility, and every class has the ability to heal raid damage. Paladins, however, do NOT have the advantage here. I'm really not sure whether you're simply unaware of the tools that other healers have compared to glyph of holy light or if you're trying to say something else and I'm misunderstanding, but Paladins are not good raid healers, especially not on clumps of people taking AoE damage.
Paladins are single target healers, and trying to force them into another role by maximising marginal abilities isn't going to be anywhere near successful.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
Why did you choose to put 2 points in IoL instead of JotP? It's a pretty useless talent now, especially if you're not using HL. Having a front-loaded FoL doesn't gain you any HPS.
You wont judge in the fight so JotP is useless and the instant FoL is a big help in terms of healing there. You'll know what i mean when you fight him yourself.
Not sure if I miscommunicated here or what, but I'm by no means advocated Beaconing yourself for this sort of rotation. I'm saying you should beacon the tank and heal yourself with AW up, so that the tank receives 1.2*(1.2)*(Whatever healing you receive).
I'd say it depends. If the tank is likely to get hit again for another one-shotting amount in less than ~2 seconds (latency, reaction time, safety margin), your chances are better doing it your way, with another healer helping, because you're probably not going to heal all the damage up in time by yourself. But if you have 2 seconds, you're better off just beaconing yourself and just HLing the tank. Even if you don't get the AW double dipping (which might even have been fixed for 3.1), your HLs might crit (given the insane amounts of crit one generally has, it's actually quite likely).
I know it's not generally a good idea to rely on crits, but you can use Divine Favour for the first HL you should be pre-casting (if possible, like on Sarth's breath) anyway. And, there's also the chance that you might get hit with a random raid heal which will negate the double dipping you're going for, the fact that if you do crit, you might not have taken enough damage to not lose some beacon healing due to overhealing.
That's for large incoming hits, at a (relatively slow rate). For a steady stream of damage, I would be even more likely to beacon myself and heal the tank, as the RNG will be less likely to screw you over.
Last edited by gcbirzan : 04/01/09 at 6:47 AM.
Reason: Being coherent is _very_ tough.
I get it based on the fact that ignites (mages) work the exact same way and have been since vanilla. Warriors do the same thing with their deep wounds but even more aggressively from what I understand with my talks to DPS warriors I know. I haven't done any physical testing with it but based on precedent I'm confident enough to say that this is how it is intended to work.
I tested it yesterday, and it's not the case, 3 holy shock crit, on me ofc, in a raw (every 5sec) and the HoT was the same (~370) at the end. But yes it's only a PTR build, so it might work like you said for the real patch.
Good to know, shame that it doesnt work that way though...makes it completely useless as a set bonus now, with luck blizzard will change it but I doubt thatll happen.
Good to know, shame that it doesnt work that way though...makes it completely useless as a set bonus now, with luck blizzard will change it but I doubt thatll happen.
It is useless because it doesn't stack up? More healing is always a bonus, especially when you don't have to do anything additional to get the extra healing to work.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I understand what he means by the word "useless". It's a crap bonus of all the bonuses you could get for holy paladin PvE. I wish this was a PvP 2 set bonus to be honest, I'm sure it would be more meaningful.
I agree that it's useless "in boss fights" in the sense that you have nearly no control over on whom and when to use it.
I think it's useless compared to the previous set bonus which was a static 10% crit rating to HS which in turned helped with IoL procs, etc.
I also understand that frmorrison is against calling it useless for it's a bonus, and it's not like people wouldn't try to get 4 pieces if 2 set bonuses were to be removed completely. But if you think that way, you won't give any negative feedback to blizzard and we wouldn't even get the updated 4 set t8 bonus imo.
let's call it crap but not useless if it'll make the point more understandable.
Last edited by Sansei : 04/02/09 at 12:10 PM.
Reason: tai-po correction
Sorry to divert the subject to a different topic, but I was wondering about the effectivness of Haste compared to Crit rating... I've heard several people vote for more Haste then Crit, but I can't really understand why... I mean, I know theorycrafting gives us nice numbers and all, but at the end we're talking about human reflexes, and giving me 0.05 sec inc of haste for example, won't matter a lot when it comes to me pushing buttons. Even 1 sec less, which is amazing on paper, is not always used in RL, as our reflexes don't always use that second (or half a second) we're given.
Crit however, does effect us regardless of our human condition, gives back tons of mana, not to mention that a lot of the pally bonuses (from abilities or set bonuses) are crit-dependent... So why do people go for haste and not crit?
You’ll probably see the haste stacking level off a bit in Ulduar in favor of mp5 and crit, due to longer fights/less regen. As it is now most paladins can make the sweeping remark that “I never run oom and my heals are big enough 95% of the time” and really not be too far off from the truth, making haste the logical place to look over crit.
Haste also has the benefit of giving a larger margin of error for the raid or caster, which is hard to put a price on. There are just too many fires to jump out of, too many ice tombs or jerks standing in said fire, adds spawning on healers, and other crap where haste saves lives that no other stat would. When things get ugly (which is the best part of the game) it really shines, I guess you could say.
Sorry to divert the subject to a different topic, but I was wondering about the effectivness of Haste compared to Crit rating... I've heard several people vote for more Haste then Crit, but I can't really understand why... I mean, I know theorycrafting gives us nice numbers and all, but at the end we're talking about human reflexes, and giving me 0.05 sec inc of haste for example, won't matter a lot when it comes to me pushing buttons. Even 1 sec less, which is amazing on paper, is not always used in RL, as our reflexes don't always use that second (or half a second) we're given.
Crit however, does effect us regardless of our human condition, gives back tons of mana, not to mention that a lot of the pally bonuses (from abilities or set bonuses) are crit-dependent... So why do people go for haste and not crit?
Certain healing styles place absolutely no importance on reactions whatsoever. You simply spam the tank for the entirity of the fight (see SWP). In these situations, haste destaggers healing, increasing the chances that your heal will land at a crucially important time rather than 0.1 seconds too late. Healing for 100 every second is much better than 300 every 3 seconds when you're dealing with unpredictable burst (ie bosses with melee hitting for >50% of the tank's health).
As RustyVenture said as well, it also helps when you have to move out of void zones / fire / whatever and need to get a heal off as soon as possible. In these situations, the 1 point of haste rating which makes your heal fast enough to land before the next melee swing (potentially lethal) is infinitely valuable, while the rest is relatively worthless (ie if you need a 1.28 speed HL and you cast one in 1.22, then the additional 0.06 seconds' worth of haste are 'wasted', in terms of actual effect). There's no way to know what the required speed will be though, so you stack as much as you can get away with.
It's certainly a hugely valuable stat, but in most cases its value is most apparent in the absence of mana issues. Priority should generally be given to making sure that you have enough mana to finish the fight, which in current content is a joke, but come 3.1, with fights going for 6-7+ minutes and no Spiritual Attunement (I think this will really hurt), I think most people will be looking at more crit and mp5.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
If glyphed for Divinity you will hardly notice losing SA. Looking at my naxx parses, most fights (non-sapphiron) I would rarely gain more than 4-5k mana from SA over the course of the fight. The buff to Glyph of Divinity, however, brings the mana gained from self LoH from roughly 4k mana to roughly 8k mana and with the new Glyph of Lay on Hands reducing the CD of LoH to 11 minutes after all buffs are accounted for we can be guaranteed that LoH will be up each attempt in any fight long enough to give us mana issues. In any event, we lose 4-5k on some fights (and none on others) and gain 4k on every fight -- I'd say that's a win.
About haste -- how much do you expect the value of haste to change once we hit the haste GCD cap? (689 rating as calculated earlier in the thread.) Currently it is possible to reach the passive haste cap either with full BiS gear and an [Elixir of Lightning Speed] or wearing the surprisingly good [Spark of Life] trinket -- once Ulduar hits and we actually begin gearing there we will all easily hit the soft cap. At that point would you consider stacking it further? Or would it be time to actually wear the crit/mp5 gear Blizzard seems intent on forcing down our throats?
Sorry to divert the subject to a different topic, but I was wondering about the effectivness of Haste compared to Crit rating... I've heard several people vote for more Haste then Crit, but I can't really understand why... I mean, I know theorycrafting gives us nice numbers and all, but at the end we're talking about human reflexes, and giving me 0.05 sec inc of haste for example, won't matter a lot when it comes to me pushing buttons. Even 1 sec less, which is amazing on paper, is not always used in RL, as our reflexes don't always use that second (or half a second) we're given.
Crit however, does effect us regardless of our human condition, gives back tons of mana, not to mention that a lot of the pally bonuses (from abilities or set bonuses) are crit-dependent... So why do people go for haste and not crit?
- Haste is for throughput, crit is for burst. You can't depend on crit to give extra healing to you because you may or may not get a crit when you actually need it.
- The 0.1 second faster cast is not for human reaction, it's for when you are spamming and/or changing healing targets for whatever reason.
- Ret talents give you 8% crit which is why the crit from itemization and talents is more than enough currently. In 3.1 we might consider giving up some ret talents (crit) for prot talents (portable raid wall, divinity, imp Dev aura if you lack prot paladin in raid) I still doubt that I'll ever gem or enchant for crit for end-game raiding. I might gem or enchant for Haste a tiny bit though. Time will tell.
- Haste is for throughput, crit is for burst. You can't depend on crit to give extra healing to you because you may or may not get a crit when you actually need it.
- The 0.1 second faster cast is not for human reaction, it's for when you are spamming and/or changing healing targets for whatever reason.
- Ret talents give you 8% crit which is why the crit from itemization and talents is more than enough currently. In 3.1 we might consider giving up some ret talents (crit) for prot talents (portable raid wall, divinity, imp Dev aura if you lack prot paladin in raid) I still doubt that I'll ever gem or enchant for crit for end-game raiding. I might gem or enchant for Haste a tiny bit though. Time will tell.
Agree but you can't really say that crit is for burst since you can't rely on it.
Crit is an efficiency stat for us and not much more. Sure, on average it does give a small increase in throughput and burst shouldn't be counted as a burst stat since you can't rely on it when you need it.
03/31/09, 11:25 AM
Similar Threads
