Unless you do what our palas plan to do, get elemental shaman and regen/hit-less cloth items. (at least in the non tier pieces)

This is my first post here, so bear with me...

Zaelen, I'm kinda thinking the same thing myself. Everything that I've seen from loot lists and gear itemization look as if paladins are going to be stuck with crit/mp5 or haste/mp5 but not haste/crit like the current naxx gear.. I'm really dissatisfied with the itemization for the Ulduaar pally gear. I'm not completely sure about this, but I even heard if you take all the tier 7.5 gear and compare it to the 8.5 you get less crit and haste with the 8.5 verses the old 7.5. I know that paladins kinda "dodged" the "mana regeneration bat" or so it seems, but does anyone else feel like the gear we have access to in Ulduaar isn't as good stat wise as Naxx? I feel like we didn't really dodge the "mana regen nerf bat", they just took it out of our gear and making us rely more on mp5 and haste which really disappointments and worries me because in my whole career as being a paladin from vanilla wow to wrath, I have seen blizzard make changes to talents and specs, but rarely have I ever seen them re itemize gear because they screwed up. I feel like we are going to turn into mp5/haste "mongers" like tbc shamans were, but with no chain heal or insta heal to really make us as useful as the shaman class or priest class with just as good of direct heals but more aoe heals. With this concern in mind, I'd love to see some math or data with the new gear verses the old and how it not only nerfs our crit which is basically our mana regen, but also how fast we can pump out heals verses all the Hots or reactive (earthshield/PROM, etc) spells out there with out over healing.

Now given, I do see the strength in a paladin especially with 4set bonus being able to sustain bomb healing for a long amount of time with the benefit of aoe heals through the HoL glyph, but overall I feel if we moved to the new ulduaar gear, breaking our T7 4set bonus for more haste and mp5 and way less crit isn't optimal for the class. I'd love to see some math or examples of the new gear with out all the crit or haste in comparison to the naxx gear and see how they pan out mana regen wise and for overall healing. The only real difference I see is more sp and more haste. I'd love to hear people's opinions on this or if someone dissagrees, I'd love to hear why.

(Not sure if this is the right forum for this, but also wanted to reply to Zaelen)

I disagree, simply for the reason that there IS sp/haste/crit gear in ulduar.

So far we have seen 5 plate pieces (chest, head & head tier, tier shoulders&10 man shoulders)

some links:

hard mode Chest: link
Tier head: link
hard mode head link
tier shoulders link
10 man shoulders link

ALSO we have some nice mail items (already picked up belt myself:

wrists Link
belt link
gloves link
ring link

So thats 2x tier + chest, wrist, belt, cloves and a ring = 7 out of 12 pieces.

There is a LOT of loot not discovered yet either, so I suspect we will get even more

EDIT: more links

Cloak: Link
Shield: link
ring 2: link

I agree with you for itemization,

To understand bliz, just look up at all paladin in your serveur...

Most full SP, with few int
Most full crit, with few int
Average mix SP/crit with few int
Very few full int

Before suplique nerf, every itemisation where viable, now those gear are not adapt for not runing oom in ulduar, so bliz maque new itemisation for that "basic" players can finish a fight without runing out of mana.

Always the same thing, while few paladin seeking for optimisation and usefull stuff, other just pick set and highet ilvl loot, socketing always to get bonus without asking their self if it's a good choise or not.

Those basic paladins are hugde majority on all server.

So yes MP5 is still less interesting than int, sp crit (heaven Haste for me) but, MP5 is the easy way for bliz to assit player that don't make analyse.

I have little idea what to do now that 3.1 hit. Currently i have gemmed everything with pure INT gems, and i`ve got the 3 JC prismatics (also INT) covering whatever socket bonuses i find interesting. In t7 content, everything seemed aimed at enormous manapools and HL casting. Now, Infusion of Light has been nerfed for HL. There is no HL socket bonus on T8 and the crit on the gear seems to have gone down the drain. This seems to be blizzard forcing us to adopt a different method. What i`m seeing is this: SS is getting buffed, set bonuses are excellent for HS -> FOL combo on a SS target, and the sheer amount of mp5 instead of crit points at FOL over HL as well. Add to that that almost all socket bonuses are spellpower, and it would seem that we are asked to stack spellpower instead of int, and go back to ye olde FOL spam instead of well-timed HL. So far in ulduar (2 bosses down, working on Ignis and XT-002) i`ve noticed that severe tankhealing is a thing of the past. Unless the tank is doing something very wrong (i had to push 6k HPS on a DK tank in VOA10... go figure) then a generic FOL spam with this new itemization will very likely keep a tank alive as well, or perhaps even better, than the current HL approach does.

So.. thoughts? I`m considering going to FOL over HL as soon as i get some new gear. I would appreciate some input.

My position wasn't that there wasn't gear that we could or couldn't pick up, it was the itemization of what I believe is blizzards way of nerfing paladins simply by looking at the gear as a whole in Ulduaar. I agree with you that there are a few pieces that have these haste/crit stats on them, but then you have to weight that against breaking up the t7 bonus.

I like what Tankred is saying about the possibility (my own summary) of switching over to a HS/FoL spam (which I remember a blue post actually talking about at some point) but it almost feels like we are going backwards again with doing the one thing blizzard said they were trying to get away from which was just spamming through your mana pool healing, hence the mana regen "nerf." I think it was this spamming that was making healing so easy, but then again that's what paladins have been taught to do and have become the backbone of Main Tank healing ever since vanilla wow for this very reason.

So my question is along the same lines as Tankred, does the math support with the new gear coming out of Ulduaar, having more of an emphasis on haste/mp5, to go back to HS/Fol spamming and having a constant flow of Flashes to supplement main tank healing along with all the Hot/reactive healing spells?

- Sidenote: My guild also has downed 2 bosses in Ulduaar 25 man, both of which I did at the end of the fights have to spam HL due to the amount of damage being done to the MT and found the 4set bonus yet again most helpful along with the libram and seal of wisdom glyph. To be honest I remember our main priest healer saying "I'm out of mana" at about 20% of the boss's health and remember thinking "thank god I have mana to spam HL."

First of all, im all new to making my own talent specs, been mostly using pre-made specs by others before, so dont flame me if all written below sounds like rubbish.

I've made a holy/ret build for pvp purposes(BG), being aimed at mostly healing, but also for some damaging when needed. I would like to hear some input about this spec. Also maybe some glyph recomendations, and how to gear properly.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If this post should not be here, im sorry and would appreciate a redirection to the correct thread.

For pvp, wear pvp gear. Resilience does amazing things for survivability.

Take the points in Stoicism and put them into Judgements of the Wise. You'll never go OOM and the stuns won't be that big a deal because of this next step. Take the points in Vengeance and put them into Divine Purpose. That talent is WAY too good not to have. It's like a free trinket every 25 seconds. Take 4 points out of Divine Intellect and put them into Imp Concentration Aura and get the other point into Pure of Heart. Here's what I'm talking about

Glyphs: Holy shock and FoL are pretty much no brainers. The third glyph is your option. SoL, SoW and Turn Evil are some good choices.

Edit: Also, this should be in the pvp forums.

I noticed that too as well. While working on Ignis, I was able to keep the MT up with reactive fol healing and only when the MT would stand in the fire would I have to holy light. What I ended up doing was putting beacon on the MT and just healing the OT that was dealing with all the adds. If this trend continues, that is the MT not needing massive healing and any healing class can then be the MT healer, what will then be the holy paladin's niche that can't be served more efficiently than the other healing classes? I don't think it would be mana efficiency because none of the other healers in my raid complain about being OOM. So I guess the ultimate question is: If tank healing is light and raid healing is more of a priority, what does that leave the holy paladin? At least I have built up a decent Ret set.

i ran around as 37/0/34 for the past month and i think it's best to keep that build mostly intact if you want to go the retri route, as you are missing some key talents now.
- judgements of the wise: i would simply NEVER go oom, if i could judge every now and then. With JOTW being buffed now, it's even better. With a pvp'ers lower mana pool, u need this
- divine purpose: breaking stuns is just so very good, this is a crucial talent
- light's grace: .5 sec off of HL, i recommend this one as there is no choice but to spam HL vs healing debuffs and all the warriors are going arms now also.
- imp. concentration aura: you'll be running around in this aura mostly, although it's not a huge necessity anymore as the 30% reduction is shared over all auras, aura mastery gives u 10s of free casting and this is just godly.

The biggest loss is ofc the almighty IOL, but it has been nerfed anyway for HL (no more 1s healing bombs).. not sure yet how hard that will affect arena performances.. to compensate we get some extra ranged burst with exorcism now, and some minor extra tools.

I remember one match vs a 1900 rating (my rating also) rogue where it was me vs him left and he just couldn't killed me and after a lot of stealthing and drinking finally he died vs my retribution aura.. I'm interested if that sort of stuff still works without IOL.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (you can take some points from pure of heart and divine intellect and put them in divinity, not sure)

i'm currently a more generic 52/19/0 but i feel it is just lacking in pvp, and i might have to go to the build i posted.

The MT and/or OT will always need steady heals, that is the way the game is designed. Sure another healer can MT heal, but not as well, and they have great AoE healing. Holy Pallies still do single target the best and with glyph of HL you still have some AoE healing.

Also as you gear up and maybe don't need the crit/utilty in Ret, you can do a Prot-sub spec for DiSac, I love the utility of it. It is only safe to use Bubble + DiSac in 25-mans, however that is a lot of AoE absorption, about 37,000.


I like IoL in PvP, so 49/22 (getting all the nice healing except for more Int + Holy/Prot PvP talents) and getting 2 points in imp Devo Aura for more healing seems nice. I am not a great PvPer, so maybe my build isn't the best. I don't see a use for Beacon in 2s (useful in 3s and 5s though).

Edit: I will likely go 31/0/40 for PvP healing, since AoW can help replace IoL and you get all the Ret goodies.

I've been discussing with a holy paladin in my guild, that one of us should test a FoL orientated build, which is what I will be doing. It might sound crazy, but i think that a specc very much like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would work.

As of now i have around 2350 spellpower, and 900 stamina.. Guarded by the light would increase my spellpower by 30% of my stamina, so i would have around 2700 roughly give or take. In addition to that, my crit heals would heal for 30% more, which is why i would go for 5% foL glyph and focus mostly on SP/CRIT gear. Many of you probably think it might be a total failure, but i have yet to see. In an optimal raid setup i would have around 3k spellpower give or take, making my fols hit for 5k non-crits, and critting for atleast 8-9k with a cast speed between 1-1.3 sec.

Thoughts?

edit: thrice

Edit: posted twice

I honestly think you're giving up way too much there. Holy Guidance alone increases your SP by 20% of your Intellect, which should be significantly higher than your Stamina, meaning the total SP gained is roughly the same (maybe 50-100 more from Guarded by the Light). Other than that, you lose out on Holy Shock (and HS -> Instant FoL), the additional Haste granted by Judgements of the Pure, Beacon of Light and Divine Illumination.

Edit: Oh, and 4% Holy crit chance, since you only put 1 point in Holy Power.

Sasan: Taking Guarded by the Light will nerf your heals, unless you're intending it as a mana regen tool during a fight during light raid/tank damage. However, you've taken SA, which should be plenty of mana regen itself. As a whole, I don't think this would make a great overall healing build, but it may be usefull in fights where you need endurance. However, it seems to require quite a bit of gear before it's even viable. Let us know how it works out for you.

This may have been fixed recently, I tested it again last night and intentional silences were reduced properly and it seemed like the immunity worked.

While we are delving into prospective specc's not deep in the holy tree. I'm doing my best to calculate the worthiness of a specc utilizing Sheath of Light, and the large amounts of crit you would gain attaining the talent.

Things you would gain:
-10% of ap translating into SP, which outweighs the iintellect-to-SP translation deep in holy. (atleast raid buffed)
- You would gain 20% of your crit heals translating into a HoT (take a 6k FoL crit, that would be 1200 in hot form)
- PoJ
- With sacred shield active, raid buffed I'm very close to a 100% chance to crit with my Flash of Lights.

Meaning our Flash of lights would cost only ~180 before Seal of wisdom (Glyphed). It would also be a 100% uptime on our sheath hot, for added spike damage buffering. We would also stay close to full mana until HL is needed. The thing that drew me to sheath originally, is if we do crit with holy light, and a crit wasn't necessary, we still gain the HoT, not to mention the mana.


Things you would lose:
- 15% haste
- Holy Shock
- Very fast Holy Lights
- Beacon
- Divine Guardian
- Illumination


10 man raids and heroics aside, with the way my guild handles healing beacon was only used for my personal safety. The Holy light would only be superior in the case where the splash would be optimal, although, its nerf makes it unreliable for serious raid healing. Divine guardian is a loss, however my guild runs with two ret paladins, both specc'd into DG, allowing me to lose it without worry.

Of course this specc is just theory at this time, I won't be returning to ulduar until tomorow to test it out. I'm focusing alot of my time until then into working out its feasability.

Feedback is always encouraged; For strict pve holy paladins, this could very well be the optimal off-specc.

The useful/less-ness about Sheath of Light specs has been debated a few times in this topic, as you can expect, it's not worth it. Feel free to use the search function to find more information on it.

In light of 3.1, i beleive to continue to ensure all possibilities are considered to maximize hps efficiency.

In launch raids it was outweighed by the losses, but considering how many more FoL's we cast in current content than when the topic was originally closed, a resurgence never hurts the paladin community. if found to be still inferior it will be dropped until the need to take another look refreshes.

It should also be considered for dual specc, which is also a change in 3.1 that would allow a second look at the specc.

You'd have a point if our situation had truly changed with the release of 3.1, however:

1. Our regen wasn't hit nearly as hard as other healing specs were.
2. The only substantial loss is arguably IoL no longer reducing the cast time of HL after a HS crit
3. That doesn't affect a HL spam build in the least, since said player would only have been using HS while moving or if immediate healing was otherwise necessary (recognizing it as inferior HPS).
4. You miss the real buff to any ShoL spec that came in 3.1, namely a buffed JotW...
5. ShoL builds now also lose out on DivSac and improved SS - both valuable additions to holy builds.
6. Your assumption of the extra crit uptime on FoL would be greatly helped by speccing into said talent - but even then, the effect has been declared unreliable many a times in this thread.
7. Are we really casting a lot of FoLs?
8. I expect the membership of these boards is well aware of dual-spec and what it signifies to the class and game at large.

I don't mean to sound short, I simply think if you look at your statement regarding the need for such a spec to be re-assessed, you'd find that your reasoning doesn't hold up so well.

Please elaborate on which encounters in Heroic Ulduar you're currently doing with that spec and your effective healing done with it.