Paladin: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 122

Eosrain · 11/12/09, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

I wouldn't use a BiS list from a previous patch, regardless. It's not just the released tier that makes it BiS, but mechanics. As some ability mechanics can change between patches (or our understanding of how they function - thus how spreadsheets and other tools model them) it could vastly alter what would be BiS.

Take Exo affecting any target. While it's a low priority ability, it could affect the weight of, say, crit vs agi. This could throw a single item from top to significantly worse. The next best item may require re-juggling of hit and expertise, causing a chain effect through multiple other items.

If you want a BiS for less than current max tier, you should really re-figure it yourself. I won't even ask why you'd arbitrarily limit yourself to gear from obsolete content.

Older BiS isn't for raid gearing purposes, it's actually for collection purposes for me. I'd just like to know which sets were BiS a long time ago so that I can get some pre-BC and BC sets together to wear for fun. I have the full Scarlet set in my bank, and it's definitely not what I would use for raiding, from a stat or itemization perspective.

Neraya · 11/13/09, 3:50 AM

Even if you don't raid at all and only do heroic instances, you can get the emblems to buy some of the newer tiers of gear making the older BiS lists no longer 'BiS' from an obtainable point of view. And as mentioned, changed mechanics will equally make it invalid.

If you want sets 'for fun', you should go for items that match well together, rather than a random collection of items which at some point happened to be BiS.

Oblu · 11/16/09, 4:06 AM

Hi, it's my first post, i've ever lurked here

I've two questions about retri:

In fight like Kologarn or Anub' Arak 10H or 25, where there is exactly 3 target to dps it's better to use SoVenge/Corruption (i've the 200str libram and i exactly cap the Exp with the glyph) or the SoC?
I thought it was better SoV but at Kologarn a couple of days ago i've start a DPS race with an Hunter, and obviusly he has owned me, but when i switch SoC i've noticed a rise in the dps from 6500 to 7800, it was just some trinket / berserking proc?

Another thing, i've dropped the tank 1h weapon [Ardent Guard]
If at the start of a fight i'd swich it to reach 5 SoV stacks faster and then return to 2h it'd be a boost or a waste of dps? With Windfury, the Equip Haste and the swift retribution in about 5-6 seconds i reach the 5 stack, do you know anything about this? (Sorry for the horrible english!)

Many Thanks

Irri · 11/16/09, 7:01 AM

Hi guys.

Just got another brain twisting question for all you smart types. In short: Haste cap.
How much haste we suppose to have? I have 733 haste and with self buff I cast flash in 1.1s and 1.4s HL. The problem is in raid that don't change much really. While flash is getting to 1.0s, but HL doesn't.
Raid haste buff: shaman totem, retropally auras, w/o boomkin.

With haste food, (or another haste item, 773/850 haste) I get 1.0s cast of flash and 1.4s cast with HL, but I assume this will even change to 0.9s, 1.3s in raid with totem and retro auras. Will it?

What can you suggest about haste values? I find casting HL for 1.4s alarming and unpleasant. 1.3 or 1.2 is much much more preferrable. But what haste is needed for those speeds?

To summarize I put these questions here:
a) What is our haste cap?
b) What haste # or haste % is needed to get HL cast time to 1.4/1.3/1.2s?
c) Will boomkin contribute and decrease 1.4s cast of HL to 1.3 w/733 haste?

thank you all.

sno · 11/16/09, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Irri

Hi guys.

Just got another brain twisting question for all you smart types. In short: Haste cap.
How much haste we suppose to have? I have 733 haste and with self buff I cast flash in 1.1s and 1.4s HL. The problem is in raid that don't change much really. While flash is getting to 1.0s, but HL doesn't.
Raid haste buff: shaman totem, retropally auras, w/o boomkin.

With haste food, (or another haste item, 773/850 haste) I get 1.0s cast of flash and 1.4s cast with HL, but I assume this will even change to 0.9s, 1.3s in raid with totem and retro auras. Will it?

What can you suggest about haste values? I find casting HL for 1.4s alarming and unpleasant. 1.3 or 1.2 is much much more preferrable. But what haste is needed for those speeds?

To summarize I put these questions here:
a) What is our haste cap?
b) What haste # or haste % is needed to get HL cast time to 1.4/1.3/1.2s?
c) Will boomkin contribute and decrease 1.4s cast of HL to 1.3 w/733 haste?

thank you all.

a)
Fully raid buffed as a paladin (having boomkin/retri and a shaman) you need 675 haste rating to get FoL and the GCD down to 1s and to get HL down to 1.33s.

b)
If you want even faster HLs here are the numbers (assuming full raid buffs):
1.3s - 777 Haste
1.2s - 1115 Haste
1.1s - 1515 Haste
1.0s - 1994 Haste

c)
Boomkin aura does not stack with Swift retribution from a retri paladin.

Exemplar · 11/16/09, 9:28 AM

Originally Posted by Oblu

Another thing, i've dropped the tank 1h weapon [Ardent Guard]
If at the start of a fight i'd swich it to reach 5 SoV stacks faster and then return to 2h it'd be a boost or a waste of dps? With Windfury, the Equip Haste and the swift retribution in about 5-6 seconds i reach the 5 stack, do you know anything about this? (Sorry for the horrible english!)

We've investigated using a fast 1H (back in the 3.2 PTR thread, I believe) to stack SoV faster, then weapon swapping. It is a universal DPS loss - don't do it.

Originally Posted by Irri

To summarize I put these questions here:
a) What is our haste cap?
b) What haste # or haste % is needed to get HL cast time to 1.4/1.3/1.2s?
c) Will boomkin contribute and decrease 1.4s cast of HL to 1.3 w/733 haste?

a) Cap is when casts are at 1 second. You cannot reduce global cooldown below 1 second, so after a 0.9 second Flash you'd twiddle your thumbs for 0.1 seconds before you could cast another. 100% haste grants twice as many casts (not instant casts). 100% haste would reduce HL from 2 seconds to 1 second.

b) Haste is calculated as follows: Cast Time / (100% + Haste%)

Holy Light is 2.5 seconds, drops to 2.0 after talents. 15% haste after a Judge. 5% for Wrath of Air totem. 3% Haste from Boomkin/Ret Paladin. +% haste from rating. Quite possibly haste from something else slipping my mind.

1.4 = 2 / (1 + .23 + x)
1.722 + 1.4x = 2
1.4x = .278
x = .199 or x = 20% haste or 505 haste rating

1.3 = 2 / (1.23 + x)
1.6 + 1.3x = 2
1.3x = .4
x = .308 or x = 31% haste or 782 haste rating

1.2 = 2 / (1.23 + x)
1.476 + 1.2x = 2
1.2x = .524
x = .436 or x = 44% haste or 1110 haste rating

Repeat the math for any number you desire. Remember, you reduce cast by 0.5 seconds (to 2.0) before applying haste, not after.

c) see answer to B, above. Boomkin/Ret, Judgment, and Wrath of Air put you at about 1.32 seconds.

sno · 11/16/09, 9:36 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

...Holy Light is 2.5 seconds, drops to 2.0 after talents. 15% haste after a Judge. 5% for Wrath of Air totem. 3% Haste from Boomkin/Ret Paladin. +% haste from rating. Quite possibly haste from something else slipping my mind.

1.4 = 2 / (1 + .23 + x)
1.722 + 1.4x = 2
1.4x = .278
x = .199 or x = 20% haste or 505 haste rating
...

Haste is combined multiplicative not additive so 1.15*1.05*1.03 = 1.2437 and not 1.23.
1.4 = 2 / (1.23*x) and rating needed = (x-1)*32.79*100
So for 1.4s HL you need around 487 rating.

Neraya · 11/16/09, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Oblu

In fight like Kologarn or Anub' Arak 10H or 25, where there is exactly 3 target to dps it's better to use SoVenge/Corruption (i've the 200str libram and i exactly cap the Exp with the glyph) or the SoC?
I thought it was better SoV but at Kologarn a couple of days ago i've start a DPS race with an Hunter, and obviusly he has owned me, but when i switch SoC i've noticed a rise in the dps from 6500 to 7800, it was just some trinket / berserking proc?

You will get a higher number of overall DPS done with SOC because you have 2 additional targets to hit.
However your overall dps on the part that matters will be lower.

It depends on what your raid leader wants, but typically you're expected to dps a specific single target. Any circumstantial aoe/cleave damage happening is "bonus". Padding your dps numbers by getting extra damage done on side targets at the cost of lower damage where it matters is a bad thing. If the side damage is desired, it's probably not too bad. If the side damage upsets the tactic it can cause a wipe. Padding the dps just to own the meters is a bad idea.
Check with your raid leader what's desired more... More damage on a specific single target and less aoe/cleave damage, or more damage overall but lower damage on a specific target.

Irri · 11/16/09, 10:07 AM

To Sno
to Exemplar.

thank you for in-depth answer.

I guess that Everything between these values really is either undercapped or overcapped, right?
487(1.4) > 777(1.3s) > 1115(1.2)

The other really strange thingie. At armory I have 773 rating and 29.06% haste. In game, I have same and 23.57%.
Which one to trust? How they are being calculated?

Exemplar · 11/16/09, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Irri

The other really strange thingie. At armory I have 773 rating and 29.06% haste. In game, I have same and 23.57%.
Which one to trust? How they are being calculated?

Armory appears to be multiplying Spell Haste by the paladin Melee Haste rating instead of the flat Spell Haste rating. In addition to Sno's correction above, I think I used that same Melee Haste rating number for my calculations.

Trust in-game, it will be what WoW is actually using.

• frmorrison · 11/16/09, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Neraya

You will get a higher number of overall DPS done with SOC because you have 2 additional targets to hit.
However your overall dps on the part that matters will be lower.

It depends on what your raid leader wants, but typically you're expected to dps a specific single target. Any circumstantial aoe/cleave damage happening is "bonus". Padding your dps numbers by getting extra damage done on side targets at the cost of lower damage where it matters is a bad thing.

At least on Kolo, all the three targets need to die. Usually when I do U25 Kolo I use SoC, and end up killing the right arm and left arm within 20 seconds to finish the boss off. Some SoC dps is overkill, but most of it gets used. Also on Mimiron phase four SoC is may be useful since all three targets need to die.

Alexanders0 · 11/16/09, 3:14 PM

I am a somewhat new Protection Paladin, and I have been running heroics like mad to get certain pieces of gear and Emblems of Conquest for gear so that I can prepare myself for raiding (at least most of the way). I am defense capped, and have just barely under 30k health completely unbuffed. I just recently picked up the Helm of the Crestfallen Challenger from heroic Trial of the Champion, and now I am wondering what might my Emblems of Conquest be best spent toward?

I already have the tier chest piece and the libram and Royal Gauntlets, but I do not know if saving up in order to buy the tier helmet is utterly worth it or if I should just buy the necklace (the last piece I would need from Emblems of Conquest) and burn the rest on orbs. Any advice in this area? Thanks very much for any input.

Rhyas · 11/16/09, 4:27 PM

Hi, 1st time poster, somewhat long time lurker.

My guild has just reached the Twins on ToGC25 and was wondering which seal would be best: SoV or SoC. I currently have the "200 Str SoV" Libram and enough Honor Points to purchase the iLvl 213 PvP CS Libram, but I do not do PvP/Arena, so getting the upper lvl ones would be an uphill battle. I do plan on purchasing the 213 PvP Libram if it is better to use SoC for Twin Valkyr fight.

Secondly, I can't remember which thread it was in, but if I go with SoC, what would the new rotation priority be? CS > HoW > J > DS > Cons > Exo > Holy Wrath?

I've tested this out a few times on the fight last night, but I don't think my numbers are entirely accurate.

Here are my reasons for taking SoC:
1) Burst potential for the Healing bubble. SoV has a long wind-up time and by the time I reach 5 stacks, we should've already burst the bubble.
2) Splash damage. Since they share a health pool, I figure every little bit of damage counts, right? Using SoC, in my mind, gives me that extra damage to beat the enrage timer.

TL;DR
1) SoC or SoV during Twins HM?
2) What is the rotation priority if using SoC?

If I've answered my own question, could someone confirm this. Much appreciated.

Belicia · 11/17/09, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Rhyas

TL;DR
1) SoC or SoV during Twins HM?
2) What is the rotation priority if using SoC?

If I've answered my own question, could someone confirm this. Much appreciated.

For our HM kills, we use the door strat, which involves tanking the mobs basically on top of each other. About 15 seconds before a "special ability," all ret paladins switch to the Dark Twin, even though we all have the Dark essence. If the special ability is Dark Shield, then we'll use Heroism/internal CDs. If it's anything else, we just switch back to the Light Twin (our normal target). You're correct that SoV would be problematic for ret DPS on a new target, but this can easily be counteracted by just switching to the other twin before a special ability cast. Doing so allows you to build up the necessary SoV stacks. Our ret paladins all use SoV and easily do over 10k dps on this fight (including me, in my off-spec, using an Ulduar weapon).

Healydan · 11/17/09, 7:42 PM

Forgive me if I have missed it, but I can not seem to locate a Holy Paladin 3.2 guide. I seem to remember there being a holy guide here, but I have not looked for it, or read it, in some time.

I have been out of Wow for about two months, and in that time, there apparently were a number of changes to pally healing. Compounding this, is the fact that healing was always a third spec for me, as I primarily tanked or dps'ed. My guild has asked me to respec to dps/heals and I need to get my healing set/spec back in order and was looking for pointers, basic specs, stat priorities, etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated.