As a non-paladin could I please get some input on what people think is the best flask to use for a lvl 80 holy paladin?

[Flask of Distilled Wisdom] with mixology gives +85 int, add 25% from talents and it's at 106.

[Flask of the Frost Wyrm] with mixology gives 162 spell power.

In term's of Blizzard's stat values 106 int is worth ~126 spell power, so the Northrend flask is obviously considered 'higher level'. My question is if int is worth stacking to the point that using that lower level of a flask is better than the spell power one? Obviously int gives extra max mana and regen, and even some spell power/crit, so I'm sure it can be hard to quantify for a comparison but just curious what the general consensus is.

Thanks!

Frost Wyrm is the generally used flask, however the Int one is a close second in its value. If you feel you need more Int rather than SP, by all means use the Int flask.

Note the old world supply of herbs is low, so sometimes you can't find the herbs on the AH.

Are you on JoL duty? We have similar stats (I'm in bad holy gear at the moment, thank you AWOL healers) and in 10 man, mana hasn't been very much of an issue for me other than when the RL asks for JoL. I'm usually bone dry and down around 300 DPS from where I should be on fights that I don't have JoW up.

Distilled Wisdom was a very popular BC flask and many guilds and raiders ended up with a glut of old world flasks (or their materials like fel lotus) when they stopped raiding. Play it smart and you may be able to take advantage of those that weren't auctioned off, etc.

I know several players that re-rolled with the expansion and just left their caster toons sitting on piles of stuff with the intention of going back to them at some point.

Ya im on JoL duty, since im the only pally. I had hoped that 3.0,8's slight mana changes would benefit me more than it appears to have

A single paladin should be judging wisdom - it benefits the greater majority of the raid unless you are *heavily* melee dependent. The only time judging light would benefit the raid more would be on a fight with significant raid damage, such as Sapphiron.

Two melee paladins - Prot judges wisdom, Ret judges light (more ap/sp = more healing)

One melee, one holy - Melee judges wisdom, Holy judges light.

In general, you want 100% uptime on wisdom - then, given 100% uptime on wisdom, light is nice. After all that, justice is judged by any extra paladins either with no special debuff talents (Thunderjudge and Heart of the Crusader)

Not to be an ass about it, but i am well aware of my role in the raid and the min/max buffs to bring to a particular fight. ATM, there is 1 caster in our raid, a warlock. The rest are melee/hybrids with only 2 main heals, my JoL is more beneficial than keeping the lock from cutting himself for a little mana.

Assuming multiple judgements horde-side on a low pop server still remains a luxury that most high pop realms take for granted, much like alliance heroism in t4 content. Regardless, the statements are valid, but the response was only directed at Belshazzar, whom originally asked.

My apologies if I insulted you - I lost track of which post you were replying to, and didn't mean to step on your toes. I thought we were also talking about a ret paladin running low on mana and not using consecrate in their rotation - a significant dps loss, and utilizing HoW glyph instead of the mana saving consecrate glyph. All dps except for rogues, warriors, and dk's benefit from JoW including hybrid caster/melee dps - I didn't realize that your particular case was running that melee heavy...in that case of course JoL would take precedence. My apologies if I missed something.

Has it changed that "improved" Judgement debuffs don't get overwritten? That was a big concern with Thunderjudge (and to a lesser extent, Heart of the Crusader) getting overwritten if someone else judged light on top of their light (Ret JoL > Prot JoL). Or is it just that since prot paladins are judging wisdom these days that wisdom shouldn't be overwritten by anyone else because it has the thunderjudge debuff attached to it. I've been trying to keep up to date on all three specs but I might have missed an update on that.

We regularly have 4 paladins in our 10man Naxxramas runs (inefficient, I know). We usually have 2 Holy, 1 Prot, and 1 Ret.

What is the best option for judging Light and Wisdom?

I'd really love to see someone make a definitive guide for all combinations of paladins in a raid, up to 1 each. Like 1 Ret does THIS, 1 Ret 1 Prot does THAT, 1 Holy 1 Prot does OTHER.

Wisdom doesn't scale with anything, it returns a percentage of base mana no matter who judges it.

Light scales best with attack power I believe, so usually a ret paladin is best for judging light.

That is exactly what I outlined a couple posts ago - Ret has more AP/SP which buffs up their JoL. They judge JoL. Prot has pretty much full uptime on their judgement, JoW is unaffected by SP or AP as to how much mana it regens - Prot judges JoW. Holy or other superfluous paladins with unimproved debuffs judge justice.

In most cases (barring Sapphiron and the other example above) you want 100% uptime on JoW as more classes benefit from it, including yourself. You want whichever paladin is capable of keeping it up full time, which would be either prot or ret. After that, you want JoL for extra healing (in general). And finally, anyone else judges justice. Holy paladins are welcome to try and keep a judgement up full time, but often it is rough to remember to judge every 20 seconds, and unless on farm content...you usually don't have that many free GCDs to work with.

I'm clearly an idiot, the Consecration tooltip shows your current damage with you current SP and AP taken into account. But I have noticed that I do slightly more damage against certain targets even with the exact same gear. As far as I know, that shouldn't happen. I was under the impression that nothing in the game has Resist Holy so you should be doing the same damage to everything. That may be what you are experiencing with your testing on the target dummies.

If you have a Tankadin and a Retadin in the raid, it doesn't matter which one uses JoW. JoW has the same effect regardless of who uses it and is not dependent on gear.

On the other hand, JoL scales with AP/SP and so if you have a Ret and a Prot in the raid it will just about always be optimal to have the tank use JoW and the Retadin use JoL.

So as previous posters have already said, it is usually best for the Retadin to use JoL in this circumstance.

That's one way to look at it. The other way is this:

First, if the ret paladin judges Light, the healing caused by it will be counted as his threat. This can be bad, particularly if you are melee-stacked and the encounter involves AoE damage (lots of threat return for the Ret paladin, possibly resulting in pulling aggro).

Second, if the ret paladin judges Light, the healing will be considered self-healing and will not return mana via Spiritual Attunement. This can be bad, as the JoL procs will at least partially heal through SoB/SotM recoil.

Prot paladin on JoL and ret paladin on JoW are ideal, as this maximises mana return to the Ret paladin, and increases threat for the tank.

3.0.8 changed JoL to not generate any threat, as it was felt to be contributing too much to prot paladins' threat (which is already plenty high, even without JoL threat or abuse of the ShotR bug that the patch also fixed).

That said, your second point is definitely valid, especially in 10-man content where buffs are scarcer and mana invariably seems to be tighter.

I must have overlooked that change, thank you for the correction

I would go the Wraith Spear as well. Lower AP would only be significant if it dropped your damage range below that of the Titansteel Destroyer setup.

I didn't see that change on patchnotes. Where do you or where can we find such info that are missing on patchnotes?

About overwriting judgements, what I understood from what I read in above posts is that a judgement overwrites a judgement of inferior power, but won't overwrite an already existent judgement otherwise. Any confirmation on this one?

If it's just like that, then if say, there's a judgement on the target, 3 seconds remaining to wear off, some inferior judgement of same name is judged, and the judgement will completely remove after 3 seconds regardless of the newly judged inferior judgement?

Stop trying to hit cap, it's hurting you more than it's helping you.

Since the 3.0.8 patch, i noticed the return of the judgement bug.
It can miss again (holy spec) at the cost of another GCD and a 8-sec delay to maintain JotP.

I didn't find many reports of it neither some blue comment, anyone has more infos ?

First point was already mentioned, but yes - JoL heals *no longer* generate threat - this was relatively well known entering 3.0.8 (to the person asking "where" it was listed, it was there...I don't know if it was documented in the "official" notes, but it was made known by blues and to the tankadin community). Second point - I just spent about 20 minutes looking through our WWS of Sarth+3 drake attempts...there were *no* SA mana gains attributed to JoL heals. there were 5 paladins, 2 Ret paladins, and myself prot...one ret paladin had about 8 million healing from JoL heals (a lot of attempts >_<), and after literally browsing the log file this is a typical entry:

01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 159 health from Taloothra Blood Aura.
01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 575 health from Orbtiz Judgement of Light.
01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 182 health from Taloothra Blood Aura.
01:36'53.407 Taloothra gains 665 health from Uzumati Wild Growth.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra gains 88 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra Seal of Blood hits Taloothra for 170 Holy.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra gains 88 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra Seal of Blood hits Taloothra for 73 Holy.
01:36'53.594 Taloothra gains 67 Mana from Spiritual Attunement.

The SA mana gain is *only* registered from wild growth - blood aura and JoL (note, the other ret paladin is casting it...it counts as *his* heal) do *not* count for SA mana return. I believe this is still working with the mechanic that it is a self-heal, rather than a *cast* heal, despite the new ownership. Earth Shield and PoM mechanics, however, do indeed trigger SA mana.

Please note this is not the only example, it just provided a nice entry with all 3 types of heals with one SA mana gain. WWS for reference

edit: to address Blöd - As I understand it, Judgement has always had a chance to miss ...its not a bug if you miss it especially as holy...that is why you need "+ hit" as part of that talent...you're attempted a ranged attack on a boss mob, 8% miss chance. Also, it's why Icewalker is a good holy boot enchant.

I always had that issue as Holy. Pickup the 4% hit talent + Icewalker, then only have a 8 (base) - 4.5% = 3.5% chance to miss judgements (a ranged attack, so no dodge/parry).