Paladin: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 25

lowsanity · 01/28/09, 11:38 AM

What is the best weapon(PvP and PvE) that RET palas who are lv 70 and only have up to burning crusade have access right now? All arena season 2 stuff are removed from the game, and getting people to do kill'jaeden or any 25 man is almost impossible on ravencrest. I'm currently using this: [Granite Maul of the Beast] and i don't exactly know what to look for... Whenever i ask, i get stupid answers like "get wotlk lol" "bc is waste, just get wotlk", but people fail to understand that i can't afford it now, so any help with this question is more than welcome.

edit: i have enchant and herbalism as skills, can't afford to roll on blacksmith.

Luthi · 01/28/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jaydin

First point was already mentioned, but yes - JoL heals *no longer* generate threat - this was relatively well known entering 3.0.8 (to the person asking "where" it was listed, it was there...I don't know if it was documented in the "official" notes, but it was made known by blues and to the tankadin community). Second point - I just spent about 20 minutes looking through our WWS of Sarth+3 drake attempts...there were *no* SA mana gains attributed to JoL heals. there were 5 paladins, 2 Ret paladins, and myself prot...one ret paladin had about 8 million healing from JoL heals (a lot of attempts >_<), and after literally browsing the log file this is a typical entry:

01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 159 health from Taloothra Blood Aura.
01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 575 health from Orbtiz Judgement of Light.
01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 182 health from Taloothra Blood Aura.
01:36'53.407 Taloothra gains 665 health from Uzumati Wild Growth.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra gains 88 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra Seal of Blood hits Taloothra for 170 Holy.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra gains 88 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra Seal of Blood hits Taloothra for 73 Holy.
01:36'53.594 Taloothra gains 67 Mana from Spiritual Attunement.

The SA mana gain is *only* registered from wild growth - blood aura and JoL (note, the other ret paladin is casting it...it counts as *his* heal) do *not* count for SA mana return. I believe this is still working with the mechanic that it is a self-heal, rather than a *cast* heal, despite the new ownership. The same seems to still stand for Earth Shield and other "self heal" mechanic spells.

Please note this is not the only example, it just provided a nice entry with all 3 types of heals with one SA mana gain. WWS for reference

edit: to address Blöd - As I understand it, Judgement has always had a chance to miss ...its not a bug if you miss it especially as holy...that is why you need "+ hit" as part of that talent...you're attempted a ranged attack on a boss mob, 8% miss chance. Also, it's why Icewalker is a good holy boot enchant.

I saw a post in another thread, perhaps not on these forums where a screenshot was included showing a spiritual attunement mana gain from earth shield, and I have been operating under the pretense that it does restore mana. I'll do some testing tonight, as I usually do a few heroics every day with a particular resto shaman.

Edit: Also, a question. On the previous page it was mentioned that judgement of light no longer creates threat. Is it the heal or the actual casting of judgement on a target that no longer creates threat?

Darios · 01/28/09, 1:52 PM

the heal. Since the judgement does damage it's causes threat.

henragar · 01/28/09, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by lowsanity

What is the best weapon(PvP and PvE) that RET palas who are lv 70 and only have up to burning crusade have access right now? All arena season 2 stuff are removed from the game, and getting people to do kill'jaeden or any 25 man is almost impossible on ravencrest. I'm currently using this: [Granite Maul of the Beast] and i don't exactly know what to look for... Whenever i ask, i get stupid answers like "get wotlk lol" "bc is waste, just get wotlk", but people fail to understand that i can't afford it now, so any help with this question is more than welcome.

edit: i have enchant and herbalism as skills, can't afford to roll on blacksmith.

Lionheart Executioner is a good choice if you are willing to put in the time to become a Swordsmith. But it's really the only great two hander available that isn't a drop.

Lionheart Executioner

Unfortunately, pretty much all of the good drops come out of 25 mans or 10 mans. If you can get 10 people to go to Kara you could get Gorehowl, which is decent.

Gorehowl

Hammer of the Naaru is what I used for a long time, which drops of HKM in Gruuls.

Hammer of the Naaru

Jaydin · 01/28/09, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Luthi

I saw a post in another thread, perhaps not on these forums where a screenshot was included showing a spiritual attunement mana gain from earth shield, and I have been operating under the pretense that it does restore mana. I'll do some testing tonight, as I usually do a few heroics every day with a particular resto shaman.

Edit: Also, a question. On the previous page it was mentioned that judgement of light no longer creates threat. Is it the heal or the actual casting of judgement on a target that no longer creates threat?

I checked that WWS additionally for evidence for ES healing triggering SA...it DOES trigger SA. I'm loading up WWS again to double check (and I'll post here with another snippet)

edit: WWS snippets
01:36'18.625 Noserino Earth Shield heals Jaydin for 2059.
01:36'18.641 Jaydin gains 16 health from Jaydin Blood Aura.
01:36'18.813 Jaydin gains 1502 health from Elars Renew. (831 Overheal)
01:36'19.032 Jaydin gains 67 Mana from Spiritual Attunement.
01:36'19.032 Jaydin gains 206 Mana from Spiritual Attunement.

01:36'23.032 Elars Prayer of Mending heals Jaydin for 4091.
01:36'23.032 Noserino Earth Shield heals Jaydin for 2058. (416 Overheal)
01:36'23.032 Jaydin gains 15 health from Jaydin Blood Aura. (15 Overheal)
01:36'23.469 Jaydin gains 409 Mana from Spiritual Attunement.
01:36'23.469 Jaydin gains 164 Mana from Spiritual Attunement.

Oh crap my bad...apparently I missed that earlier. PoM and ES both give SA mana...however JoL and Blood Aura still do not. (I think I screwed up the ES estimate earlier because I was watching the SA of the ret pally, not myself >_<) I edited my post to portray the correct info.

edit: further testing shows LotP does indeed proc SA...thanks to Fiola

Merovengian · 01/28/09, 3:51 PM

That is nice empirical evidence to support the long held theories of what triggers SA. The general rule being: Any heal cast by the player onto himself, or as a result of a buff triggered heal (IE, Blood Aura, JoL, Imp LotP) do not cause mana returns. Conversely, any direct non-character cast healing ability, active or passive- that does not overheal should trigger mana return. To include Earthshield, Prayer of Mending, et al.

Russta · 01/28/09, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by Blöd

Since the 3.0.8 patch, i noticed the return of the judgement bug.
It can miss again (holy spec) at the cost of another GCD and a 8-sec delay to maintain JotP.

I didn't find many reports of it neither some blue comment, anyone has more infos ?

Judgement of Wisdom appears to be stacking again too. We brought a few Paladin alts into an Archavon after the nights raid and I was noticing insane JoW procs. I looked at debuffs and asked the Paladins who all said they were using it.

HamSlammer · 01/29/09, 1:53 AM

Originally Posted by Merovengian

That is nice empirical evidence to support the long held theories of what triggers SA. The general rule being: Any heal cast by the player onto himself, or as a result of a buff triggered heal (IE, Blood Aura, JoL, Imp LotP) do not cause mana returns. Conversely, any direct non-character cast healing ability, active or passive- that does not overheal should trigger mana return. To include Earthshield, Prayer of Mending, et al.

Interestingly enough, Beacon heals trigger SA even if it's the Paladin's own Beacon.

Jaydin · 01/29/09, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

Interestingly enough, Beacon heals trigger SA even if it's the Paladin's own Beacon.

Do you have a combat log snippet of this (the latter part) occurring? As far as I know, self-beacon'd heals do *not* trigger SA mana returns, as the beacon still counts as the caster's own spell which doesn't return mana. Beacon'd heals on *other* paladins do indeed result SA mana returns, as it is incoming healing from another source. I'll back some of this up with WWS when it stops acting up (editing this post per usual).

To summarize what I've experienced:
Holy paladin puts beacon on Pally A, heals X (within beacon range): X is healed, Pally A is healed through Beacon, Pally A benefits from SA.
Holy paladin puts beacon on self, heals X (within beacon range): X is healed, self is healed through Beacon, self does not benefit from SA.

Sansei · 01/30/09, 8:22 AM

SA discussion was carried out on these very forums.
http://elitistjerks.com/1017507-post388.html is a link to my question about beaconing self, and under that post are some answers given. The discussion yielded that, healing effects from your own Divine Storm, your own JoL, your own Beacon do not proc SA to you (since they are attributed to you)

I'd like to see some proof for or against, as we all took members' posts for granted; we were never shown a combat log snippet proving either opinion. I also wonder if healing totems, shadow priest's Vampiric Embrace talent, etc proc SA or not...

Merovengian · 01/30/09, 1:47 PM

I may be wrong about this but i was under the impression, for quite a while mind you, that Shadow Priest VE heals have always given SA returns. That was a core mechanic in BC 25mans pre-sunwell, to stack Holy pallies and a tankadin in group with a spriest so the tank had less mana concerns and the healadins never went oom (even though that wasnt rly a huge problem to start with).

My personal BC raid experience was with stacking bloodlusts rather than mana regen slots. Feel free to beat me over the head with the correction stick.

• frmorrison · 01/30/09, 2:59 PM

Shadow Priest VE heals will give SA if the heal actually healed you (not overheal), same situation with healing stream totem. In early BC VE heals gave SA even at 100% health, but that was quickly fixed.

Back in BC SPriests were given to dps casters and/or Paladins, but never a tank (since tanks don't need mana and VE is largely overheal). Shamans were stacked because Bloodlust didn't give a debuff back then.

Marama · 01/31/09, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mountie

Stop trying to hit cap, it's hurting you more than it's helping you.

Ok, if I equip the best belt (Flame-bathed) and best weapon (Wraithspear), I gain +38 AP and +.57 Crit over equipping the lesser belt (Girdle of the Ascended Phantom), but lose 1.11% usable hit (to cap w/draenei.) I've tried that setup, as well as the other two, and frankly don't see any practical gain by forgoing the hit. That's only 2.7 DPS from AP, and a little over half a percent crit given up by not missing.

Athéná · 01/31/09, 9:45 PM

I have been trying for the past couple of days to write a macro to link Divine Favor to my Holy Shock casts and Divine Illumination to my Holy Light casts. I know a working macro is easy to write but what I am trying to do is use Grid and Cligue. Every time I use my linked macro or one I write into Clique it always casts the heal on me and not my intended target.

drake_rocket · 02/01/09, 4:52 AM

My dearest apologies for bothering the excellent minds of this forum with a very simple question.

Is it, generally speaking, wise/acceptable to place beacon of light upon a main tank (if you are a designated main tank healer) and, in lieu of focusing on them, heal the DPSers and just have your beacon heal the tank? Or does this produce problems?

It seems to me, from what I gather, that this is a terrible idea as your heals may well not help the tank at all as a DPSer might not be able to absorb the full level of your heal, either by not being sufficiently damaged or by being healed a second before by a chain heal or some such. And beacon of light delivers only actual healing done, yes?

Thank you for taking the time to reply to this no doubt very simple and obvious question from someone who knows little about pallyhealing but is seeking to understand it better.

• emptyrepublic · 02/01/09, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by drake_rocket

My dearest apologies for bothering the excellent minds of this forum with a very simple question.

Is it, generally speaking, wise/acceptable to place beacon of light upon a main tank (if you are a designated main tank healer) and, in lieu of focusing on them, heal the DPSers and just have your beacon heal the tank? Or does this produce problems?

It seems to me, from what I gather, that this is a terrible idea as your heals may well not help the tank at all as a DPSer might not be able to absorb the full level of your heal, either by not being sufficiently damaged or by being healed a second before by a chain heal or some such. And beacon of light delivers only actual healing done, yes?

Thank you for taking the time to reply to this no doubt very simple and obvious question from someone who knows little about pallyhealing but is seeking to understand it better.

In my view this is purely a judgement (no paladin pun intended) call. Since it is a relatively expensive spell to cast I only put it up when I know there will be plenty of AoE damage hitting the party. I've heard of some putting the beacon on themselves and healing themselves that way exclusively. I've heard of a few other that never use beacon because they feel it's too clumsy. Unfortunately there is no one good answer for what you want. The dynamics of the party/raid you are in will dictate how often and how you use Beacon. Only experience using the spell will be able to guide you properly.

Merovengian · 02/01/09, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by drake_rocket

My dearest apologies for bothering the excellent minds of this forum with a very simple question.

Is it, generally speaking, wise/acceptable to place beacon of light upon a main tank (if you are a designated main tank healer) and, in lieu of focusing on them, heal the DPSers and just have your beacon heal the tank? Or does this produce problems?

It seems to me, from what I gather, that this is a terrible idea as your heals may well not help the tank at all as a DPSer might not be able to absorb the full level of your heal, either by not being sufficiently damaged or by being healed a second before by a chain heal or some such. And beacon of light delivers only actual healing done, yes?

Thank you for taking the time to reply to this no doubt very simple and obvious question from someone who knows little about pallyhealing but is seeking to understand it better.

In a relatively low AoE environment its not a bad way to heal an offtank, or a ret pally. On something where the OT is soaking cleaves or hatefulls, put it on the MT and focus on the OT, provided youre not solely responsible for keeping the MT alive, since overhealing isnt transfered.

Putting Beacon on yourself is a waste, provided there are 2 holy pallies in a raid they should Beacon each other so they get mana returns via SA. If you're the only Holy in a raid full of druids and priests with a crazy chain healing shammy and the only thing you get to heal are tanks, It's debatable whether its useful at all.

I personally have only healed in 10mans with it, during which I beaconed the MT and raid healed while the druid rolled HoTs on both tanks. Works well, but you still need to be aware that while topping off the raid only the affective healing will be transfered and not the full amount.

Jaydin · 02/02/09, 11:16 AM

Beacon is a situationally overpowered spell. In certain situations, nothing holds a light to it - on Patchwerk 10 one paladin can basically keep up both tanks without breaking a sweat; on Sapphiron you can practice the "raid healing" beacon strat due to the massive raid damage. In others, it can be marginally useful at worst - a strict tank and spank with no or infrequent raid damage gains nothing with Beacon. Beacon assignment really relies on your raid makeup and assignment. Working with your other healers to maximize its usefulness will aid not only your healing but the raid's healing as a whole.

maxi · 02/02/09, 1:01 PM

I am a bit fuzzy on how multiple beacons in raid interact.

Suppose there are 2 beacons in raid, all within range of the guy i am currently healing. Which beacon will get the heal?

• frmorrison · 02/02/09, 2:02 PM

Beacon only works on the your healing spells, so with 2 Holy Pallies your target with Beacon will get heals and the other Holy Pally's target with Beacon will get his heals. Note it is one beacon per Pally, so you should all be able to Beacon the MT and heal the raid.

Use a tracking mod like Classtimers so you know when your Beacon falls off.

Lindfarne · 02/02/09, 2:13 PM

Currently I can run either Titansteel Destroyer or Sword of Justice for PvP. I've browsed the DPS calculator thread and saw that they are roughly equal for PvE given the slower speed. Since Seal of Command is proc based and procs more 'reliably' with a slower weapon I would tend to think that this would actually be better for PvP. Does anybody know for sure?

• frmorrison · 02/02/09, 6:01 PM

One factor to I take into consideration in PvP is the hit cap (5%). The Titan gives 1.65% hit and I don't want the RNG to make me miss.

So if I needed the hit on Titan to reach 5% cap, I would use it. Otherwise, I would use the Sword. Note that going over the hit cap is useful on Night Elves (2% melee/ranged miss) and PvP Paladins (4% ranged/spell miss), since Judgement and Hammer are ranged/spells respectfully.

I have the same opinion for PvE, if you need the hit (8% cap), go for Titan.

Lindfarne · 02/02/09, 6:03 PM

I can get the hit elsewhere for PvP. PvE that is harder. Thanks for the reply.

cutfang · 02/02/09, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by Jaydin

Beacon is a situationally overpowered spell. In certain situations, nothing holds a light to it - on Patchwerk 10 one paladin can basically keep up both tanks without breaking a sweat; on Sapphiron you can practice the "raid healing" beacon strat due to the massive raid damage. In others, it can be marginally useful at worst - a strict tank and spank with no or infrequent raid damage gains nothing with Beacon. Beacon assignment really relies on your raid makeup and assignment. Working with your other healers to maximize its usefulness will aid not only your healing but the raid's healing as a whole.

Word of warning for raid healing on Sapphiron with beacon, keep a close eye on the 40 yard range limit it has. For this reason I generally stick to only healing the raid melee as Sapphiron is huge and chances are most of the ranged dps are >40yards from the tank. He can be rather bursty sometimes. This applies to Malygos too, both fights where I really like to throw holy lights on the raid but with an extremely close eye on the tank (or Maly's cast bar) too.

Noob question for myself. I noticed that when I run with a 2nd / 3rd holy pally and we both have beacon up on the same target that sometimes my heals appear to fail to transfer over. I'm not sure if they just don't stack, or that the UI isnt showing my heals. Sometimes they transfer over but it seems random to my eye so far. Has anyone else experienced this?

Sansei · 02/03/09, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by cutfang

I noticed that when I run with a 2nd / 3rd holy pally and we both have beacon up on the same target that sometimes my heals appear to fail to transfer over. I'm not sure if they just don't stack, or that the UI isnt showing my heals. Sometimes they transfer over but it seems random to my eye so far. Has anyone else experienced this?

Effective healing is always transfered as long as the beacon is in 40yards range to the targets you are healing. It can be that your UI is playing tricks on you, or your connection speed. If your initial heals are overhealing and you don't notice it because of a little lag, you might as well think that your beacon fails.

An easy way to try this for yourself is make a 3men party with 2 holy paladins and a tank. duel the tank, and he lets you beat him (he's at very low health when duel is over) both holy paladins strip naked to have minimum spellpower. Both paladins put beacon on you, and both FoL the low health tank. Gives you quite some effective healing to see if any of your casts fail to transfer.