Don't ever suggest a tank go for block rating over crit immunity. You may have not meant to say that but way you framed your post sure implies it. A new tank usually isn't struggling for long term mitigation, they are looking to survive spikes. Crits are a huge spike. Likewise, tanks in blues shouldn't be seeking block rating because they do so at the expense of stats that help survive spikes and make them less common. That's not to say they shouldn't use gear with block rating on it but they should not be seeking it out.

Block rating past the block cap is still useful for AoE encounters. In that situation the addtional BR will work once the holyshield charges are eaten through, and they will be eaten through. The great tanks have a set for every situation, even trash.

Umm, I added the whole "ignoring the massive instant burst which is the actual reason tanks go for crit immune." bit for the exact reasons you said - being crit in a raid is an excellent way of getting yourself dead. I explicitly didn't challenge the wisdom that crit immunity is the first thing any tank should be gearing for, since I was aware that just saying "block rating is the best mitigation stat" might be misinterpreted as an argument for BR ahead of def cap.

As for spike survival and probability reduction, stamina is obviously king in survival terms. In blue gear you're below 50% avoidance, added avoidance actually makes the damage you take marginally more random (not sufficiently for it to be a bad idea mind). Stacking block rating is actually a better way to lessen spikiness, it's a cheap way to knock a sizable chunk of every hit, though frankly, if you're at that sort of risk of dying from normal boss melee, you probably need stamina more.

I've recently hit 80 on my paladin with the intent of tanking. However, due to an abundance of experienced and more active tanks in my guild, the opportunity for me to run our weekly Naxx 25 as prot is not an option. So I've begun work on putting together a set of Ret gear so I can run as dps for Naxx25, and run around as prot on off-nights.

The semi-formal dps target my guild has decided upon for consideration for this run is at least 2500 on the boss-level test dummy. But try as I might, I can not seem to break 2300 without exploiting some HoW spam on the always-0% dummy.

My current test looks like this:

Self-buffed with Imp BoM
SotM
Ret Aura
JoW

No other food/flask/scroll/etc buffs.

Using Cons, Judgement and Undead glyphs (and AW, but no use of HoW for my tests)

I'd consider my gear to be quite reasonable for running Naxx, obviously not BiS across the board, but fairly respectable all things considered. I've been using RAWR to plan out my gear, and following the guidelines on the Ret pally thread.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...a&n=Butterjugs

As far as rotation goes, I'm giving high priority to Judgements, and trying to slip in Cons between that and CS to minimize the clashing of cooldowns. For this test, AW is macro'd to JoW to ensure it gets used close to every cooldown.

My damage breakdowns seem pretty standard:

JotM - 23-24%
Melee - 16-18%
SotM - 12-13%
RVeng - 11-13%
CS & Cons (about 10% each)
DS - 6%

Is there something major I'm missing in my rotation? Or does 2300 on the dummy sound about right for this level of gear?

In a recent OS25 fight, Sarth was low enough health that at the very end, I stayed in the fight despite the firewall... having good healers, it was a non-issue, but still a calculated risk on my part... I was 2nd on overall damage and DPS, and about a third of the rest of the party was dead, so it ended up being good that time. I had hit AW at the <20% mark, so I couldn't bubble through it even if I wanted to.

That got me thinking though. Instead of popping AW while Sarth is greater than 20% health, what would be lost/gained if when the firewall is coming within melee range of Sarth, would it make sense to bubble and fight through, even with the 50% damage reduction? I figure I'm blowing time until I can re-use AW, but is the additional damage from AW worth the damage loss while running away and back during a firewall incident?

I may try and get some real data on this. My gut tells me that 12 seconds at 50% damage is still going to be better than 20 seconds at +20% with 10 seconds of practically zero damage (not to mention RV probably drops completely, etc.).

Someone do some better math than I can. I was doing (with the run-away) 4.15kdps... let me round to 4kdps w/o AW. Assuming 10 seconds are lost in battle when the firewall requires avoidance. Remove all "normal" battle since it would be equal in the comparison, but add to take into account an encounter that covers both scenarios. RV not calculated in either.

AW for 20 seconds = 4kdps * 1.2 * 20 = 96k
"run away" for 10 seconds = 0kdps
Total with AW = 96k/30 seconds

bubble for 12 seconds = 4kdps * 0.5 * 12 = 24
"normal" combat for 18 seconds = 4kdps * 18 = 72
Total for bubble scenario = 96k/30 seconds

That math shows a wash!

Questions:
1. If RV refresh is taken into account, wouldn't that put the bubble method ahead?
2. If hit with the firewall with bubble, does it still count as a hit? (i.e. spawns)
3. As a "buff", can Divine Shield be self-removed by right-clicking when active? If so, that moves the bar more in favor of using the immunity instead.

Sub 20% health is a different matter. Properly glyphed with HoW, I can't see how AW doesn't come ahead, especially since you can HoW at range during the firewall.

Opinions?

Divine Shield can be removed manually like almost every buff ingame.

I do not understand what the point of your question is. You can use DS for 4 seconds at any time once during the fight to avoid a Firewall and still use AW 30 seconds later. Forbearance has no influence on AW anymore.

Bubble is limited by cooldown and Forbearance.
AW is limited by cooldown and 30 not w/in 30 sec of bubble.

If you really want to bubble through flame walls you should:
1) Pop AW after a flame wall passes so you get its entire time before needing to move for the next wall.
2) After the AW/Bubble lockout period is done, wait for a flame wall, bubble at last safe second, once wave is past immediately remove bubble. You do not have to sit there bubbled the whole 12 seconds.

If your healers are doing well enough to keep you alive through a flame wall, then they can certainly keep the tank alive for you to dodge the wave and DPS as normal. Flame walls also do knockback (when not under a bubble), reducing your time on target almost as much as dodging the wall safely. Taking flame wall damage is not going to be superior.

But if all you care about is DPS, ignore Sartharion entirely, go sit on the whelps. Hitting 2+ targets with Consecration and DS is always going to be more DPS. Go chase that meter. Is this useful? No, but neither is sitting in flame walls waiting for heals.

As this message says, there are 2 safe zones where u can keep meleeing the boss during waves. if the boss is tanked on the traditional spot where you can see in every sarth+xD video, then on a "sides" wave, you stay under boss's right leg, if it's a "middle" wave, then u run through the boss and stay under boss's left leg. you don't lose melee touch, and you won't get "you're facing the wrong way" if you're careful enough while running inside the boss. It's what I do when I'm healing MT. I keep in melee range for my SoW procs

Btw, afaik, whether you bubble or not, you still get knocked back with the wave, right? So you'll lose the DPS while running back in melee range.

No, there is no knockback when Divine Shield is going to make you immune to everything.

Okay, I seem to be struggling with my guild as of late. I love your site and, along with be.imba.hu follow through and read carefully on almost EVERYTHING your site has to say. However, as of late, I seem to be falling behind the curve of my guildies when it comes to raiding. Here is my wowarmory link:

The World of Warcraft Armory

My rotation for the most part is seal of martyr (which of course now stays on for 30 minutes), judgement of wisdom, crusader strike, divine storm, consecration, then exorcism and holy wrath (that is the other undead/demon aoe attack right?), and by that time, my JoW and Consecration is done with their cd and away I go again. In answer to a question I know is going to be asked (Why in the world would you have possibly gotten Mark of Norgannon, when Mirror of Truth, a 200 item level epic heroism trinket, is far superior?), at the time I was trying to find the best way to improve my expertise.. Though this of course was a folly and stupid to boot. I'm now working toward getting enough gold for the DMC: Greatness, so that I can make up for that mistake and possibly have BiS for my trinkets (until 3.1 of course). My head gear is simply for the meta until such time as Obsidian Greathelm is dropped from Satharion (someday), and will then replace it. My question is, this, then... What am I doing wrong to be number 8 or 9 from an original number 4 or 5 on the damage and dps meters? I've been racking my brain to figure out the problem, and am nowhere NEAR completing this new problem. Please, if you can, help me and figure out where I've gone wrong so that I may possibly be able to stand up and proudly again call myself a Retribution Paladin.

One of your BIGGEST fans,
Genalas, Bonechewer, member of Immortel

We're going to need a WWS to be able to tell you how you're doing. In general though, every well played pure dps class should be above you.

edit: armory is working now, some gemming issues:
- You put a 27 str gem in a prismatic socket. Don't ever do this. (gloves)
- You gemmed pure hit in your bracers (also a prismatic slot)
- You gemmed a 27 str gem in your chest for a 6 haste bonus. I dont know stat values by hearth, but Im 99% sure putting that gem in your shoulders (instead of that horrible blue gem that serves no purpose at all) and just ignoring your chest socket bonus would net higher dps.

That's all we can do without a WWS.

Small question about the Darkmoon Card: Greatness (the +90 int one).

Do any of you anticipate that it Will be one of the best trinkets in 3.1? or will it just get replaced soonish?
Love to know this before I spend time getting the cards.

Intellect was never a good stat for prot paladins and was frequently lamented. Spell power is some threat but provides no mitigation and is very costly compared to other threat options. Stamina is the bread for all tanks while avoidance is the butter, so yes stamina is good.

Most of our threat is still holy damage based (only auto attack is non spell damage and we had that in TBC too) but now scales with AP instead of just SP.

I can recall hardly any "paladin" tanking rewards from quests in TBC. So I doubt you're going to find much while leveling. Items of the champion are great for tanking these days. Items of the beast are also excellent and of the bandit are okay.

Stats you should be looking for in tank gear.
Highly desirable:
Stamina
Defense
Str

Good:
Agility
Dodge
Parry
Block chance
Block rating

Okay
Attack Power
Resilence
Spell power
Hit
Crit

Since you're above lvl 60 you have access to HotR. You should use a high dps 1H weapon of any speed with at least 1 of the highly desirable stats and one fo the good stats. Don't even consider a spell power weapon these days.

Ok SP is a poor stat. And some abilities only scale with AP (so str). Thanks for the reply.

(Edit: The paladin tanking rewards were the plate with spelldamage (so not the ones with healing, pre-3.0) when SoR and consentration only scaled with spelldmg.)

If it doesn't have defense on it, it's not a "paladin" tanking item. It's either a holy paladin piece or one of the horrible, horrible hybrid pieces that blizzard was fond of making at that time.

Hello!
I did a comparison table for ulduar 25 tanking gear but I don´t know where exactly I can post it for further discussion.

I would be happy to make it into a thread where we could discuss the better combination of gear for different circumstances.

I´ll post the table itself here to see if it´s valid to make a new threat to post it. I´m new here so I´m not used to the finer workings of this forum.

My source for all the information I gathered for this table was mmo-champion posts and to this date there are some discrepancies that I hope to edit soon.

Thanks for your attention,

--------------Neck----------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
42	94	---	---	43	---	41	42	---	--	Shard of the Crystal Forest
63	94	42	28	---	---	42	---	---	--	Necklace of Unerring Mettle
71	96	---	---	30	37	37	---	---	--	Bronze pendant of the Vanir (1Yellow

--------------Ring----------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
42	94	---	---	36	---	46	---	42	--	Platinum Band of the Aesir
63	94	---	---	34	---	32	---	---	882	The Leviathan´s Coil
63	94	51	32	---	---	33	---	---	--	Signet of the Earthshaker

--------------Wrist---------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
46	94	---	---	44	---	39	---	36	1027	Mimiron´s Inferno Couplings

--------------Waist---------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
65	103	---	---	40	---	56	43	---	1321	Indestructible Plate Girdle
62	126	---	---	---	56	57	---	49	1321	Dragonslayer´s Brace
57	127	---	---	60	---	49	56	---	1321	Shieldwarder Girdle
84	127	68	45	---	---	44	---	---	1321	Dragonslayer´s Brace??

-------------Shoulder-------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
68	100	---	---	37	39	40	---	---	1723	t7 paladin (1yellow
84	112	68	37	---	---	44	---	---	1761	t8 paladin (1red
84	127	---	---	43	44	47	---	---	1761	Shoulderplates of the Deconstructor
84	127	---	---	44	---	47	43	---	1761	Shoulderplates of the Deconstructor??

--------------Legs----------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
100	127	54	52	---	---	54	---	---	2054	t7 paladin
113	147	---	---	43	60	59	---	---	2054	t8 paladin (1red
113	147	---	---	51	---	52	---	---	2880	Saronite Plated Legguards (1red
113	147	65	60	---	---	59	---	---	2054	Wyrmguard Legplates?? (1yellow
81	147	---	---	68	---	67	66	---	2054	Wyrmguard Legplates (1yellow
92	156	---	---	66	---	84	66	---	2117	Legplates of the Endless Void (1red
81	159	---	---	---	68	71	---	66	2054	Gilded Steel Legplates (1blue

--------------Head----------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
80	127	77	---	---	---	66	---	---	1867	t7 paladin (1meta
113	147	---	---	43	59	44	---	---	1908	Helm of the Faceless?(1meta
81	147	---	---	---	76	59	50	---	1908	Helm of the Faceless (1meta
97	147	---	43	59	---	60	---	---	1908	t8 paladin (1meta

--------------Hand----------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
57	100	---	---	45	---	50	---	---	1436	t7 paladin (1blue)
84	115	69	---	---	36	45	---	---	1467	t8 paladin (1red
69	118	---	---	64	---	55	---	47	1512	Handguards of Revitalization (1red
60	127	---	---	---	56	55	49	---	1467	Gauntlets of the Royal Watch
84	127	68	44	---	---	45	---	---	1467	Handguards of the Enclave

--------------Boots---------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
65	103	---	---	48	---	48	---	43	1614	Spiked Deathdealers (1yellow
66	115	---	---	---	56	48	---	43	1614	Greaves of the Stonewarder (1yellow
84	115	68	---	---	36	44	---	---	1614	Greaves of the Stonewarder?? (1yellow
62	127	---	---	57	---	55	49	---	1614	Charred Saronite Greaves

--------------Chest---------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
100	127	65	53	---	---	45	---	---	2298	t7 paladin (1blue
113	147	---	---	51	51	60	---	---	2348	t8 paladin (1blue
105	159	77	---	---	51	60	---	---	2348	Unbreakable Chestguard (1red
105	159	77	51	---	---	60	---	---	2348	Unbreakable Chestguard?? (1red

--------------Cloak---------------------

str	stm	bv	br	ddg	pry	def	hit	exp	amr
46	94	---	---	41	---	43	36	---	157	Cloak of the Makers
48	96	---	---	---	---	71	24	31	162	Titanskin Cloak

bv = block value
br = block rating
ddg = dodge
pry = parry
def = defense rating
hit = hit rating
exp = expertise rating
amr = armor

You can start a new thread if you'd like, but I'd just re-post this in the Protection paladin thread as someone there will probably find it useful. Seeing as how you're not asking any questions, this isn't really the place for it.

Please excuse my response to a 5-day-old post.

This isn't answering your direct question, but... IMO this is total nonsense. Naxxramis, be it 10 or 25 man, is meant to be introductory raiding. A fresh-to-80 tank should stay tank specced and be encouraged to tank as much as their gear allows, while one of the more experienced tanks respecs dps and coaches them. Sure, that coach has better tank gear, but no doubt they have better dps gear too. Broadening the newbie's experience is well worth the trouble. Besides, if I'm reading Armory right, you don't look like a newbie to me.

Is it possible to write a macro that will cast all your Ret spells in order (Judgment -> CS -> DS -> Cons -> Ex) BUT it will always attempt the first spell first and then move down the list if it's on CD? Basically a castsequence priority macro.

No, macros playing the game for you was removed back in TBC.

I'm not very good at macro's, but this just popped up when I read Alcapwnd's question.

/cast Judgement
/cast Crusader Strike
/cast Divine Storm
/cast Consecration
/cast Exorcism
/cast Holy Wrath
<and the remove error message line>

Wouldn't this cast the 1st ability not on cooldown?

EDIT: Even if it works it probably isn't worth it to use, because you loose track of the CD's on each abilities. Also since you'd need to spam this macro there is a big chance of getting the fake gcd problem.

No this kind of macro doesn't work now, it will just fail if your judgement is on cooldown.
The only way to have GCD-attached abilities in the same macro is to use the castsequence, which doesn't work well with abilities that do not have the same cooldown (well, that's not completely true, but it surely does nothing interesting with our abilities).
In fact you also have castrandom, and in fact it might even work if you push the button quickly enough... but well, not very satisfying...

Correct, you could have a /castrandom x, y, z macro that could dps for you, but it would cast the abilities in random orders.

The only way to have something play the game for you that I can think of is to get a G15 keyboard and make a keyboard macro that spams your abilities in FCFS order (hit Judgement button a lot, then the CS button a lot, etc.).